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2 x 20 queary

stevewjstevewj Posts: 235
I have started to do 2 x 20 sessions with 5 min recovery twice a week on the road to improve my 10 and 25 mile TTs (find it V hard to do on the turbo but can motivate myself on the road). My lactate threshold is 155 and have ridden (allowing for gradients and occasional junctions) within a range of 150 - 160 as in the graph below. Am I within tolerance or do I need to take it easier or push harder - I find conflicting advice on the various web sites I have looked at.
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Posts

  • jgsijgsi Posts: 5,026
    Your HR seems all over the shop... is this because of the road circumstances?
  • stevewjstevewj Posts: 235
    jgsi wrote:
    Your HR seems all over the shop... is this because of the road circumstances?
    yes - undulating with some junctions
  • NUFCrichardNUFCrichard Posts: 103
    stevewj wrote:
    find it V hard to do on the turbo but can motivate myself on the road.

    That is probably because outdoors it usually isn't a real 2x20 at threshold. Your heart rate should rise slowly through out each interval, peaking at the end of the 2nd 20 minutes. You know about it when you do a 2x20 at threshold and at the end you won't ask if you should've gone harder, you'll be trying not to be sick!
  • markwb79markwb79 Posts: 929
    stevewj wrote:
    I have started to do 2 x 20 sessions with 5 min recovery twice a week on the road to improve my 10 and 25 mile TTs (find it V hard to do on the turbo but can motivate myself on the road). My lactate threshold is 155 and have ridden (allowing for gradients and occasional junctions) within a range of 150 - 160 as in the graph below. Am I within tolerance or do I need to take it easier or push harder - I find conflicting advice on the various web sites I have looked at.
    untitled.jpg


    How did you get to this number?
    Through the 20min test mine was 172, done in a lab with blood testing mine was 163. Thats a very big difference!
    Scott Addict 2011
    Giant TCR 2012
  • twotyredtwotyred Posts: 822
    Am I within tolerance or do I need to take it easier or push harder

    If you think you can push harder then you were probably not pushing hard enough. Also if the 2x20 sessions were really good quality I doubt you would be able to do two of them in the same week along with your other training.

    Like the poster above my LT (from blood test) is a fair bit below what my average HR is for a 2 x 20 session which again leads me to suspect you could increase the intensity a bit.
  • amaferangaamaferanga Posts: 6,789
    stevewj wrote:
    find it V hard to do on the turbo but can motivate myself on the road.

    That is probably because outdoors it usually isn't a real 2x20 at threshold. Your heart rate should rise slowly through out each interval, peaking at the end of the 2nd 20 minutes. You know about it when you do a 2x20 at threshold and at the end you won't ask if you should've gone harder, you'll be trying not to be sick!

    If you find 20min at 'threshold' that hard then surely you couldn't do an hour at threshold? 2x20 at threshold should be challenging, but something isn't right if you feel sick after doing it.
    More problems but still living....
  • twotyred wrote:
    Am I within tolerance or do I need to take it easier or push harder

    If you think you can push harder then you were probably not pushing hard enough. Also if the 2x20 sessions were really good quality I doubt you would be able to do two of them in the same week along with your other training.

    Like the poster above my LT (from blood test) is a fair bit below what my average HR is for a 2 x 20 session which again leads me to suspect you could increase the intensity a bit.

    Depend how you do 2x20s and what is meant by "quality".

    Quality training is training that provides the appropriate level of training stimulus for the desired physiological adaptations. It's entirely possible that attempting to do such efforts too hard can compromise overall training training quality.

    Doing two 2x20 efforts per week is most doable, but perhaps not for less experienced or those that attempt to do them at their maximal level or set a new PB everytime they do them.
  • bernithebikerbernithebiker Posts: 4,148
    I did this yesterday, on a 7km, 5% ish climb near us. 30km there gently to warm up, 30km back gently.

    I aimed for HR of 160 for the entire climb which mostly I achieved (160-165), then the last km is steeper (8%) so hit 175 ish there.

    About 5 minutes to descend and then do it again.

    Pretty bushed by the end of the 2nd one, I couldn't have done a third at a decent speed.

    My max HR is 185, and Lactate Threshold I estimate at around 155.

    Being new to 2 x 20's I also wonder if this is too hard, just right, or too easy?

    http://app.strava.com/activities/62526082
  • markwb79markwb79 Posts: 929
    I did this yesterday, on a 7km, 5% ish climb near us. 30km there gently to warm up, 30km back gently.

    I aimed for HR of 160 for the entire climb which mostly I achieved (160-165), then the last km is steeper (8%) so hit 175 ish there.

    About 5 minutes to descend and then do it again.

    Pretty bushed by the end of the 2nd one, I couldn't have done a third at a decent speed.

    My max HR is 185, and Lactate Threshold I estimate at around 155.

    Being new to 2 x 20's I also wonder if this is too hard, just right, or too easy?

    http://app.strava.com/activities/62526082

    From my limited reading/experience. I dont think you are doing it too wrong, but I would forget going harder towards the end and try and go a fraction harder throughout.

    One thing they will probably all say is, next time just try and do it flat out as hard you can. Then you will know better what HR you can do the 2x20 at.

    eg, I did my test and my 20min HR was 172bpm, Lactate is 163bpm. I would do the 2x20mins at around 167bpm. Then I got a power meter and reset all the numbers and did them based on power instead, and 99% of the time my HR is around 167bpm when I am at my FTP
    Scott Addict 2011
    Giant TCR 2012
  • stevewjstevewj Posts: 235
    markwb79 wrote:
    stevewj wrote:
    I have started to do 2 x 20 sessions with 5 min recovery twice a week on the road to improve my 10 and 25 mile TTs (find it V hard to do on the turbo but can motivate myself on the road). My lactate threshold is 155 and have ridden (allowing for gradients and occasional junctions) within a range of 150 - 160 as in the graph below. Am I within tolerance or do I need to take it easier or push harder - I find conflicting advice on the various web sites I have looked at.
    untitled.jpg


    How did you get to this number?
    Through the 20min test mine was 172, done in a lab with blood testing mine was 163. Thats a very big difference!
    From my average HR during a five mile TT x 100/107, and 10 mile TT average HR x 100/105
  • I did this yesterday, on a 7km, 5% ish climb near us. 30km there gently to warm up, 30km back gently.

    I aimed for HR of 160 for the entire climb which mostly I achieved (160-165), then the last km is steeper (8%) so hit 175 ish there.

    About 5 minutes to descend and then do it again.

    Pretty bushed by the end of the 2nd one, I couldn't have done a third at a decent speed.

    My max HR is 185, and Lactate Threshold I estimate at around 155.

    Being new to 2 x 20's I also wonder if this is too hard, just right, or too easy?

    http://app.strava.com/activities/62526082

    Sounds about right to me. Really, if you did them solidly and felt pretty taxed by the end, then that's about the upper end of the effort level and is about right for threshold power development.

    Since LT typically occurs at a power output about 10-15% lower than FTP, then a HR at LT of 155bpm and a HRmax of 185bpm suggests your threshold HR training levels are in the 160-170 bpm range, which is about what you experienced.
  • stevewjstevewj Posts: 235

    Since LT typically occurs at a power output about 10-15% lower than FTP, then a HR at LT of 155bpm and a HRmax of 185bpm suggests your threshold HR training levels are in the 160-170 bpm range, which is about what you experienced.

    Most of what I have read says that 2 x 20 should be done a few beats below LTHR and Joe Friels Training Bible has the threshold training zones for 20 to 40 mins at zone 4 and 5a - i.e. between 94% and 102 % of LTHR. You say that the range of 160-170 (103% to 109% of his LTHR) is correct - how come such a discrepancy ?
  • stevewj wrote:

    Since LT typically occurs at a power output about 10-15% lower than FTP, then a HR at LT of 155bpm and a HRmax of 185bpm suggests your threshold HR training levels are in the 160-170 bpm range, which is about what you experienced.

    Most of what I have read says that 2 x 20 should be done a few beats below LTHR and Joe Friels Training Bible has the threshold training zones for 20 to 40 mins at zone 4 and 5a - i.e. between 94% and 102 % of LTHR. You say that the range of 160-170 (103% to 109% of his LTHR) is correct - how come such a discrepancy ?

    Because I suspect that what bernithebiker reports is his/her HR at LT, with LT being closer to an intensity as typically defined in the literature (i.e. at an intensity from a specific test protocol that elicits a blood lactate concentration 1mmol/L above baseline levels).

    What Friel calls LT is something different and is instead from an effort performed at a higher level of intensity, and is more akin to time trial pace.

    Part of the problem is there are several definitions of what's loosely termed "threshold", hence why I added some context to explain the intensity level I was referring to.

    When you inspect bernithebiker's actual HR response from a 2x20 effort, then it's clear they could not have been riding too hard in the 160-165bpm range, else they would not have been able to sustain the effort, let alone put in an extra hard effort towards the end.
  • NUFCrichardNUFCrichard Posts: 103
    If you find 20min at 'threshold' that hard then surely you couldn't do an hour at threshold? 2x20 at threshold should be challenging, but something isn't right if you feel sick after doing it.

    I try to go just above threshold for each of the 20 minute intervals, maybe 2% over. A 2x20 can be done at any level you want, I do mine as hard as I can and it hurts. At sweet spot it is easier to do, at tempo it would be very easy. The problem here is that people are using heart rate for the intervals, which means if they hold the same HR they will be producing gradually less power throughout.
  • bernithebikerbernithebiker Posts: 4,148
    The problem here is that people are using heart rate for the intervals, which means if they hold the same HR they will be producing gradually less power throughout.

    Really? At HR 160-165, I suspect I'm knocking out about 250W, but my speed and my 'perceived effort' remains constant throughout the interval. I don't feel any deterioration in my power/speed. (The slope is pretty constant for the most part).

    Perhaps if I was to have tried a third run, I would have been making less power for the same HR, not sure. Generally I find that as I tire, I cannot get my HR up to where it should be.
  • NUFCrichardNUFCrichard Posts: 103
    I might be wrong, but when I hold my threshold wattage, my heart rate increases throughout the interval. It would stand to reason that if you hold a certain heart rate, your power would be decreasing.

    http://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/325811
    Here is a 2x20 on trainer road, the heart rate consistently rises, whilst the power stays the same.
  • imposter2.0imposter2.0 Posts: 11,003
    I'm sorry but this is a perfect example of reading too much into the numbers. While I don't believe in super old school training techniques I don't think you should be putting any thought into whether it's too hard/easy/whatever but just ride them at a 20 minute effort pace.

    If you went too hard you will know because you won't be able to do another one. If you went too easy you'll know because you still feel fresh.

    Learning to listen to what your body is telling you is 100000000x more beneficial than producing HR graphs ever will be

    +1 to the above. You can't really do any more than just ride for 20mins.......at a pace you can just about sustain for 20mins.
  • Imposter wrote:
    +1 to the above. You can't really do any more than just ride for 20mins.......at a pace you can just about sustain for 20mins.
    Pace is a poor measure for intensity of effort, and since RPE changes through such an effort, it can fool people into starting out too hard - a very common mistake.

    If ridden well, a threshold level effort will feel relatively easy to start with, and become gradually harder as the effort progresses. The trick is knowing how easy/hard to start such that it is sustainable.
  • imposter2.0imposter2.0 Posts: 11,003
    Imposter wrote:
    +1 to the above. You can't really do any more than just ride for 20mins.......at a pace you can just about sustain for 20mins.
    Pace is a poor measure for intensity of effort, and since RPE changes through such an effort, it can fool people into starting out too hard - a very common mistake.

    If ridden well, a threshold level effort will feel relatively easy to start with, and become gradually harder as the effort progresses. The trick is knowing how easy/hard to start such that it is sustainable.

    Pace was probably the wrong choice of word - I guess I should have said 'effort'. Agreed it might take a few turns to find an appropriate sustainable effort level which works for the duration, but I guess that's part of the training process...
  • Imposter wrote:
    Imposter wrote:
    +1 to the above. You can't really do any more than just ride for 20mins.......at a pace you can just about sustain for 20mins.
    Pace is a poor measure for intensity of effort, and since RPE changes through such an effort, it can fool people into starting out too hard - a very common mistake.

    If ridden well, a threshold level effort will feel relatively easy to start with, and become gradually harder as the effort progresses. The trick is knowing how easy/hard to start such that it is sustainable.

    Pace was probably the wrong choice of word - I guess I should have said 'effort'. Agreed it might take a few turns to find an appropriate sustainable effort level which works for the duration, but I guess that's part of the training process...
    Yep and fair call. IOW we really are saying the same thing.

    Good TT riders usually learn by lots of experience how to dose their effort, but it's pretty interesting and revealing how many find out they still make basic pacing errors when the data is available to them.
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