Lightweight Clinchers

Grill

VTech wrote:

Through my experience in the car world I have consistently seen gains from wheels, usually measured over the factory stock wheels to the new lightweight versions but the difference between high quality lightweight and the highest quality, lightest wheels are almost non-existant.


Read my comments, even on earth they make sense.

How many watts does the typical car you work with put out? Now think about a cyclist. As I said this isn't your field so I'm not surprised you don't understand. Your arguments throughout this thread have been contradictory though.

imposter2.0

Grill wrote:

Your arguments throughout this thread have been contradictory though.

They haven't. Why are you offended by the argument that 'you don't need to spend £2k on bike wheels' ??

VTech

@grill, You are faster, fitter, stronger than me, I get that and there is a point im making.

If you rode a bike with 4kg wheels and then with 1.25kg wheels you would see a massive gain.
Lets say that gain cost £2000.

Then you ride a bike with the 1.25kg wheels and then pay a further £2000 on 1.2kg wheels I dont think you will see a gain so the purchase is pointless.

Now as I said at the start, you are fitter, stronger and more powerful than me, so if you wouldnt feel the difference, what hope would I ?

jezzpalmer

Grill wrote:

VTech wrote:

Through my experience in the car world I have consistently seen gains from wheels, usually measured over the factory stock wheels to the new lightweight versions but the difference between high quality lightweight and the highest quality, lightest wheels are almost non-existant.


Read my comments, even on earth they make sense.

How many watts does the typical car you work with put out? Now think about a cyclist. As I said this isn't your field so I'm not surprised you don't understand. Your arguments throughout this thread have been contradictory though.

Lightweight wheels on a car isn't about watts, it's about lowering unsprung weight to make suspension more responsive.

VTech

jezzpalmer wrote:

Grill wrote:

VTech wrote:

Through my experience in the car world I have consistently seen gains from wheels, usually measured over the factory stock wheels to the new lightweight versions but the difference between high quality lightweight and the highest quality, lightest wheels are almost non-existant.


Read my comments, even on earth they make sense.

How many watts does the typical car you work with put out? Now think about a cyclist. As I said this isn't your field so I'm not surprised you don't understand. Your arguments throughout this thread have been contradictory though.

Lightweight wheels on a car isn't about watts, it's about lowering unsprung weight to make suspension more responsive.

Im not sure I am understanding your point clearly, your not suggesting reducing weight has no benefit to a certain point ?
My point was that even on a car, you will see speed gains on acceleration by reducing wheels weight, to a point of course. At this point you see little to no gains going forward.

Grill

VTech wrote:

@grill, You are faster, fitter, stronger than me, I get that and there is a point im making.

If you rode a bike with 4kg wheels and then with 1.25kg wheels you would see a massive gain.
Lets say that gain cost £2000.

Then you ride a bike with the 1.25kg wheels and then pay a further £2000 on 1.2kg wheels I dont think you will see a gain so the purchase is pointless.

Now as I said at the start, you are fitter, stronger and more powerful than me, so if you wouldnt feel the difference, what hope would I ?

What on earth are you on about? This isn't about me, it's about your generalization that lighter wheels make no difference. Now you say they do but only if you're a decent ride? Are you saying that you aren't faster on your AR4 than your Triban? Really?

Where has it been mentioned that anyone buying Lightweights is doing so in order to save 50 grams (not a lot of sub 1kg wheelsets out there)? What about the superior torsional stiffness and aero properties? Weight is important, but it's not the only factor.

imposter2.0

Grill wrote:

What about the superior torsional stiffness and aero properties?

yeah, the sort of stuff that might give you 1 second up an alpine col.

VTech

Grill wrote:

VTech wrote:

@grill, You are faster, fitter, stronger than me, I get that and there is a point im making.

If you rode a bike with 4kg wheels and then with 1.25kg wheels you would see a massive gain.
Lets say that gain cost £2000.

Then you ride a bike with the 1.25kg wheels and then pay a further £2000 on 1.2kg wheels I dont think you will see a gain so the purchase is pointless.

Now as I said at the start, you are fitter, stronger and more powerful than me, so if you wouldnt feel the difference, what hope would I ?

What on earth are you on about? This isn't about me, it's about your generalization that lighter wheels make no difference. Now you say they do but only if you're a decent ride? Are you saying that you aren't faster on your AR4 than your Triban? Really?

Where has it been mentioned that anyone buying Lightweights is doing so in order to save 50 grams (not a lot of sub 1kg wheelsets out there)? What about the superior torsional stiffness and aero properties? Weight is important, but it's not the only factor.

Totally and utterly missed my point.

I made that comment on the basis that I believe you wouldnt notice a difference so I wouldn't (you were my fictional tester character).
I am faster on the Ar4 than the triban but my point was the wheels, if I fitted a set of lightweight wheels to either bike I reckon I would be faster but to a point only. At that point, no matter how many grams I save I wont get a difference that is measurable.
You have to understand, measurable difference is greater tested with fitter, faster riders (hence using you as a rider over me).
For the likes of almost every rider on this forum, changing from stock heavier wheels (forum users opinions as has been mentioned countless times) to lighter but affordable wheels is a great upgrade, I accept that.
Then change to the VERY BEST and I guarantee almost all will see no difference, as I have tried to point out, there is a plateau where saving weight has little to no effect.
Also, at some point, strength is compromised by weight reduction (I have just a little experience in this field)

Grill

That point where lighter = no gains isn't practically acheivable, even with PEDs.

On this forum lighter affordable wheels is equivalent to about 1500gms. The very best are just over 900gms. Factor in clincher tyres, rim tape, and tubes as compared to a bit of glue and good tubs and you've saved over 700gms on a wheelset. That's huge.

Full carbon wheelsets are strong. Ridiculously strong actually. Take a look at Mad Fibers: http://www.bikerumor.com/2013/05/30/mad-fiber-wheels-tested-to-the-extreme/. Try that with anything other than full carbon wheels and let me know what happens.

imposter2.0

Grill wrote:

Full carbon wheelsets are strong. Ridiculously strong actually. Take a look at Mad Fibers: http://www.bikerumor.com/2013/05/30/mad-fiber-wheels-tested-to-the-extreme/. Try that with anything other than full carbon wheels and let me know what happens.

It doesn't matter what happens. Wheels only need to be strong enough for their purpose. Nobody cares if you can drive a tank over them or not.

VTech's point is still perfectly valid, despite various attempts to either a) attack him, b) attack his credibility or c) try to change the topic. Still, it's fun to read though...

VTech

No doubting madfiber and the likes are incredibly well built wheels.
At the moment, as with frames though (and from what I have read) they seem to be chasing a few grams, its these chases that are pointless to the average Joe as in real world it makes no difference.
Im not suggesting decent wheels dont help you go faster.

Grill

a) I have not attacked him
b) His credibility is in question. Why would I, or anyone else for that matter, take advice from someone who has no experience with the topic in question?
c) I haven't changed the topic. I address baseless contentions as they arise.

Cycling isn't about need, if it were we would all ride £200 Vikings. Whether or not anyone chooses to spend money on wheels or any other upgrades isn't my concern. My issue is with the second part of his comment: "there is no return for even the very best cyclists." This is the comment that is 100% baseless.

VTech

Just to be clear, im not offended by anyone arguing my views, it happens daily and its what makes us better, all of us.

Have a read here, http://www.biketechreview.com/index.php ... erformance

jezzpalmer

VTech wrote:

jezzpalmer wrote:

Lightweight wheels on a car isn't about watts, it's about lowering unsprung weight to make suspension more responsive.

Im not sure I am understanding your point clearly, your not suggesting reducing weight has no benefit to a certain point ?
My point was that even on a car, you will see speed gains on acceleration by reducing wheels weight, to a point of course. At this point you see little to no gains going forward.

I rarely understand your point clearly, so I shouldn't worry about it.
Lighter wheels will of course help acceleration of a car; the point I was making is that it wouldn't be the reason for fitting £5k's worth of light wheels to a car, it would be to improve handling and ride quality; and of course offer some nice wheel feel-good factor.

Brakeless

VTech wrote:

No doubting madfiber and the likes are incredibly well built wheels.
At the moment, as with frames though (and from what I have read) they seem to be chasing a few grams, its these chases that are pointless to the average Joe as in real world it makes no difference.
Im not suggesting decent wheels dont help you go faster.

So in one post we've got 'it makes no difference' as well as 'I'm not suggesting decent wheels don't help you go faster'

So which is it? They either do help you go faster or they make no difference, it can't be both.

Grill

You realise that you've sighted a 12 year old article...

There's a whole lot wrong with his data, especially the manner in which it was collected. At the end without first hand experience you won't know for sure.

I had my Foil back in AZ a couple weeks ago and the owner of my local LBS took it out. When he came back he said he couldn't believe the wheels on it. In all his years he'd never ridden anything stiffer or faster spinning. Placebo effect? Maybe, but the guy knows his stuff.

VTech

Brakeless wrote:

VTech wrote:

No doubting madfiber and the likes are incredibly well built wheels.
At the moment, as with frames though (and from what I have read) they seem to be chasing a few grams, its these chases that are pointless to the average Joe as in real world it makes no difference.
Im not suggesting decent wheels dont help you go faster.

So in one post we've got 'it makes no difference' as well as 'I'm not suggesting decent wheels don't help you go faster'

So which is it? They either do help you go faster or they make no difference, it can't be both.

Thats the problem with forums, and people reading only a couple of posts instead of really needing to read the whole thread but to save you time.
Of course there is a gain, but to a certain point and that point isnt close to £2000, according to those that know far more than me it seems to be around the sub-£500 level where a decent set of wheels can be had giving great weight, strength and speed gains. After that it seems to plateau rather quickly.

@grill, do you mind me asking you what wheels and components are on your wheels please ?

Brakeless

VTech wrote:

Brakeless wrote:

VTech wrote:

No doubting madfiber and the likes are incredibly well built wheels.
At the moment, as with frames though (and from what I have read) they seem to be chasing a few grams, its these chases that are pointless to the average Joe as in real world it makes no difference.
Im not suggesting decent wheels dont help you go faster.

So in one post we've got 'it makes no difference' as well as 'I'm not suggesting decent wheels don't help you go faster'

So which is it? They either do help you go faster or they make no difference, it can't be both.

Thats the problem with forums, and people reading only a couple of posts instead of really needing to read the whole thread but to save you time.
Of course there is a gain, but to a certain point and that point isnt close to £2000, according to those that know far more than me it seems to be around the sub-£500 level where a decent set of wheels can be had giving great weight, strength and speed gains. After that it seems to plateau rather quickly.

@grill, do you mind me asking you what wheels and components are on your wheels please ?

I have read the whole post , thanks!

The wheels I use most are

1. Mavic Open Pro on Hope Hubs. 1900g (ish) Solid, great for training, day to day and club runs, hard work on climbs(relatively)
2. Zipp 303 Clinchers (old style with alu braking surface 1600g ish, Brilliant all round wheels especially on 'rolling' terrain, way quicker for the same effort than the open pros.
3. Xentis 2.5 Clincher 1200g (ish) Seriously light and on long climbs way quicker as I can hold a higher speed for alot longer as they take a lot less effort to propel.

If I was into TTs then I would buy some Zipp 808s or similar.

Now I'm no nerdy boffin with a techy background, I just ride my bike lots and know what works for me and what doesn't. As for price, it's always diminishing returns as the price goes up, whether its bikes, cars, sound systems etc. It's down to the individual to decide whether it's worth it to them or not, just because there's a price attached doesn't mean it makes no difference.

According to your vast experience I should just use the Open pros for everything. Of course I could, but it wouldn't be as quick, as efficient or as much fun.

VTech

Im not sure anyone, certainly not me, is arguing with you. Your points seem fair to me.

drlodge

Brakeless wrote:

The wheels I use most are

1. Mavic Open Pro on Hope Hubs. 1900g (ish) Solid, great for training, day to day and club runs, hard work on climbs(relatively)
2. Zipp 303 Clinchers (old style with alu braking surface 1600g ish, Brilliant all round wheels especially on 'rolling' terrain, way quicker for the same effort than the open pros.
3. Xentis 2.5 Clincher 1200g (ish) Seriously light and on long climbs way quicker as I can hold a higher speed for alot longer as they take a lot less effort to propel.

If I was into TTs then I would buy some Zipp 808s or similar.

Now I'm no nerdy boffin with a techy background, I just ride my bike lots and know what works for me and what doesn't.

Nah rubbish, its all placebo effect :roll:

Grill

VTech wrote:

@grill, do you mind me asking you what wheels and components are on your wheels please ?

Have a few sets.
1. Reynolds RZR Teams
2. Reynolds Attack Clincher (standard hubs are quite good but will be rebuilt with Tune Mig/Mags and CX-Rays soon)
3. Profile Design Altair 80 Full Carbon Clinchers (probably selling them as I don't use them as the Element+RZR are much faster)
4. Mavic Ksyrium Elites (training wheels)
5. Reynolds Element Disc (Soooooo fast)

I'll be getting a set of handbuilts next month as the Elites are almost dead (probably Open Pros and still hub shopping) and I'm waiting for a good deal on either a Reynolds 66 or Hed H3 front wheel. I will buy Lightweights as soon as I go 11 speed as you can't change RZR hubs

smidsy

Brian1 wrote:

I'm probably going to get roasted for asking this but how come everyone says that carbon clinchers are best avoided yet Lightweight sell them at £2k?

In an attempt to bring this back on topic and answer the OP.

The argument is something along the lines of they weigh too much compared to the alternatives and are a compromise to say carbon tubs, which are lighter.

Essentially Carbon Clinchers (particularly those with an aluminium brake track) are considered as style over substance as they are neither one thing or the other.

A bit lke a hybrid bike - it tries to satisfy various requirements and as a consequence falls short of them all.

Edit: just found this, which sums it up far better, by someone who knows wheels.

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Carbon clinchers... they are joke rims for the following reasons

1) They have a limited range of tyre pressure, which limits the tyre size, limits the scope and limits the rider weight.
2) They have brake heat dissipation issues, which lead to tyre overheating and pressure blowups... they are improving, but the added strip of basalt doesn't last forever
3) They are significantly heavier than the tubular counterpart for the same strength and often heavier than shallower alloy rims, which leave with aerodynamics as the only alleged advantage over those.
4) They cost stupid money if they are half decent
5) Aerodynamic advantage according to the manufacturers themselves (over shallow alloy rims) account to 3 minutes over 112 miles of time trialling... I don't often ride 112 miles of solo effort on flattish courses and I don't know many who do. If I did, it would probably take me close to 6 hours... 3 minutes plus or minus don't seem a good reason to bear all of the above... a mph of head wind will probably knock 10 minutes

MattC59

VTech wrote:

As for MattC59, you probably have a lot to say that would be good advice for me and others but your past spiteful posts have eradicated you from people taking in what you say. That's a shame as I'm sure your am ok guy without the keyboard you use as a weapon.

Which spiteful posts have I made and which people aren't taking in things that I say ?
(ps. Sorry Mum)

imposter2.0

Brakeless wrote:

According to your vast experience I should just use the Open pros for everything. Of course I could, but it wouldn't be as quick, as efficient or as much fun.

Nobody on here (in particular, vtech) has ever said that. Anybody who is not hampered by their own stupidity should be able to understand that the point vtech was making was that £2k is largely wasted on a set of wheels as - (and this is the point I made earlier) - the law of diminishing returns begins to apply - in fact, it probably applies long before you get to the £2k price point. Vtech's vast (or otherwise) experience is irrelevant and it does not alter the fact that he is, in my view, absolutely right. Unfortunately, there are too many snobs on here that can't cope with that scenario.

Nobody claimed that everyone should ride around on Open Pros FFS, although ironically, most people on here would probably go as quick on a set of them as on a set of Lightweights.

Brakeless

Imposter wrote:

Brakeless wrote:

According to your vast experience I should just use the Open pros for everything. Of course I could, but it wouldn't be as quick, as efficient or as much fun.

Nobody on here (in particular, vtech) has ever said that. Anybody who is not hampered by their own stupidity should be able to understand that the point vtech was making was that £2k is largely wasted on a set of wheels as - (and this is the point I made earlier) - the law of diminishing returns begins to apply - in fact, it probably applies long before you get to the £2k price point. Vtech's vast (or otherwise) experience is irrelevant and it does not alter the fact that he is, in my view, absolutely right. Unfortunately, there are too many snobs on here that can't cope with that scenario.

Nobody claimed that everyone should ride around on Open Pros FFS, although ironically, most people on here would probably go as quick on a set of them as on a set of Lightweights.

So Vtech is absolutely right when he said

'There is no need to spend this kind of money on bike wheels, there is no return for even the very best cyclists'

There is a return, it could be a very small one in some cases but there is a return.

And of course there's a law of diminishing returns (as I said in my post) It's up to the individual to decide whether they think the gains are worth it.
.

giant_man

VTech wrote:

No doubting madfiber and the likes are incredibly well built wheels.
At the moment, as with frames though (and from what I have read) they seem to be chasing a few grams, its these chases that are pointless to the average Joe as in real world it makes no difference.
Im not suggesting decent wheels dont help you go faster.

So don't f***ing buy them then ..... and you work with carbon? jesuzzzz

imposter2.0

Brakeless wrote:

So Vtech is absolutely right when he said

'There is no need to spend this kind of money on bike wheels, there is no return for even the very best cyclists'

I case you missed my other posts where I agreed with him - yes, I agree.

Brakeless wrote:

There is a return, it could be a very small one in some cases but there is a return. .

example?

VTech

giant man wrote:

VTech wrote:

No doubting madfiber and the likes are incredibly well built wheels.
At the moment, as with frames though (and from what I have read) they seem to be chasing a few grams, its these chases that are pointless to the average Joe as in real world it makes no difference.
Im not suggesting decent wheels dont help you go faster.

So don't f***ing buy them then ..... and you work with carbon? jesuzzzz

Why swear ?
To me it isnt an issue, I was mearly pointing out that the extra cost isnt always beneficial. You have to remember that people reading these posts make purchases based on responses, I did today after asking for info on a rucksack.
That was only a relatively small cost of £80 but wheels can set the buyer back £2000 in this case which is almost certainly a waste, the better option would be a nice lightweight set at around 1/5th that price.
I do work with carbon but im not sure what that has to do with it. Its a great product but often overpriced.
We sell carbon fibre sun loungers for £35,000 for a pair, would I buy them myself ?

ugo.santalucia

Must be the muggy feel in the air, everybody seem very aggressive today... I suggest we all leave Lightweight wheels where they are for the time being... I will lock this topic before someone gets a ban