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Lightweight Clinchers

Brian1Brian1 Posts: 595
edited June 2013 in Road buying advice
I'm probably going to get roasted for asking this but how come everyone says that carbon clinchers are best avoided yet Lightweight sell them at £2k?
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  • GrillGrill Posts: 5,610
    As does Mad Fiber. A lot of people with more dollars than sense out there, so naturally they'll take advantage. Waste of money though as the tubulars are lighter and don't have any of the downsides of carbon clinchers
    English Cycles V3 | Cervelo P5 | Cervelo T4 | Trek Domane Koppenberg
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 27,716
    If I was a banker with little time and significant money to invest in a hobby, I would probably buy a set of Lightweight, to hammer down Canary wharf when it is desert at weekends and maybe enter a few iron man and various race across america etc... They are a bit fragile for your sunday ride on potholed Britain.
    Most of the advice given on forums is based on common sense and the perception that money is tight and you have to get the best deal out there. Not everybody is in this situation and Lightweight are not the best deal out there, but they are lavish and if they get to the other side of America they might get there an hour before the Open PRO... they might get nicked too, so better to get a carbon friendly lock :wink:
  • MccariaMccaria Posts: 869
    £2k ? And the rest. The Lightweight Meilenstein clinchers are £3.3k.
  • GrillGrill Posts: 5,610
    Lightweight Meilenstein Obermayers are the stone cold nuts. I'd even trade my RZRs for a set...
    English Cycles V3 | Cervelo P5 | Cervelo T4 | Trek Domane Koppenberg
  • VTechVTech Posts: 4,736
    There is no need to spend this kind of money on bike wheels, there is no return for even the very best cyclists.
    Living MY dream.
  • jezzpalmerjezzpalmer Posts: 389
    VTech wrote:
    There is no need to spend this kind of money on bike wheels, there is no return for even the very best cyclists.

    That argument applies to many things though once you've got past a certain level.
    HiFi, watches, cars, wine, clothes, food.
    I'm sure you appreciate, people like nice/different/exotic stuff. More power to someone that can afford and enjoys a set of Lightweights.

    It seems if anyone asks about high end or new stuff on BR you tend to get some luddite or tight censored slagging it off. Quite bizarre.

    EDIT: the last bit reads as if it's aimed at you VTech, it's not, just a general observation.
  • flasherflasher Posts: 1,734
    VTech wrote:
    There is no need to spend this kind of money on bike wheels, there is no return for even the very best cyclists.

    Really? This thread is now 48 pages long and has been going since 2005!

    http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum ... 14&t=10108
  • MattC59MattC59 Posts: 5,408
    Flasher wrote:
    VTech wrote:
    There is no need to spend this kind of money on bike wheels, there is no return for even the very best cyclists.

    Really? This thread is now 48 pages long and has been going since 2005!

    http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum ... 14&t=10108

    I think you'll find you're wrong, V-Tech has made a declaration.
    :lol:

    Glad you pointed it out, I'd have been accused of being argumentative, or referred to as "people like you" :lol:
    Science adjusts it’s beliefs based on what’s observed.
    Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved
  • GrillGrill Posts: 5,610
    VTech wrote:
    There is no need to spend this kind of money on bike wheels, there is no return for even the very best cyclists.

    This isn't even the pot calling the kettle black. This is one kettle calling another kettle a kettle.

    You can justify 5k for wheels on a car that will have little to no effect on performance, but not for a bike where it will actually make a difference? Really?

    My car cost me £1000 whereas yours was tens of times more expensive. Not only would I wager that it is just as good as transporting me from point A to point B as yours, but also that even Vettal doesn't need a car more expensive than mine to get around town.

    This all sounds like the sour grapes of one who paid way too much money for a set of Chinese carbon clinchers... :P
    English Cycles V3 | Cervelo P5 | Cervelo T4 | Trek Domane Koppenberg
  • VTechVTech Posts: 4,736
    No, I'm being incredibly genuine.
    Your car (grill) is almost certainly better than mine, mine sits in a garage because its uncomfortable to drive and difficult to park without hassle so my viewpoint is quite good in that sense (although the purchase wasn't).

    I never bought my carbon wheels for the bike to be faster, as I've pointed out before, I bought them for looks. Now as it happens I am getting faster but that's due to me getting lighter and fitter, not because I have a set of carbon clincher.

    People read these posts and base purchases on what people say but I would bet my car that no matter what wheels I bought for my bike I'm not going to be as fast as grill, I'm quite certain that's a safe bet ?

    As for MattC59, you probably have a lot to say that would be good advice for me and others but your past spiteful posts have eradicated you from people taking in what you say. That's a shame as I'm sure your am ok guy without the keyboard you use as a weapon.
    Living MY dream.
  • GrillGrill Posts: 5,610
    I understand, but you still haven't addressed the real issue which is where you said:
    VTech wrote:
    There is no need to spend this kind of money on bike wheels, there is no return for even the very best cyclists.

    My problem with this statement is that you're trying to pass off an unqualified opinion as fact. Take a look at any mountain stage or mountain TT and you'll see that not only does wheel choice change, but many use incredibly expensive lightweight wheels (Wiggo included) for even marginal gains while climbing. Same goes for TTs (PRO/Shimano doesn't make a trispoke and it's most likely an H3).

    Simply pointing out that 1) yes there is return and 2) just because you wouldn't pay it doesn't mean it's wrong fro someone else to.
    English Cycles V3 | Cervelo P5 | Cervelo T4 | Trek Domane Koppenberg
  • VTechVTech Posts: 4,736
    edited June 2013
    I didnt mean that it's wrong for people to buy, it's marketing and I love that.
    I think for the massive majority we would find that new concepts and design are used by pro's in order to sell to the masses (or those who can afford from the masses). I may not have experience in cycling as we all know I'm new to it but marketing products is something I have 20+ years experience of. It's always been the same, get someone to use your product who is influential and then sell to the gullible.

    I would guess that over a 10m TT you would not see a provable difference between your normal choice of wheel and a super lightweight £2k set of wheels.
    It would never be measurable simply due to 2 rides never being the same. Placebo is almost certainly the only gain (which is in fact a powerful ally)
    Living MY dream.
  • VTech wrote:

    As for MattC59, you probably have a lot to say that would be good advice for me and others but your past spiteful posts have eradicated you from people taking in what you say.

    Relax, its only the internetz
    I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles
  • GrillGrill Posts: 5,610
    VTech- Companies like Lightweight, AX-Lightness, Token, etc. exist for a specific market. You'll find that they don't sponsor pro teams and that the pros that do ride them pay for them. You'll also find that their marketing is minimal as they really don't need it and get more business on word of mouth.

    You may believe that innovations that begin in the pro peloton come about so they can be sold, but the truth is they come about to squeeze those marginal gains so that they can win and then, if successful, are sold. R&D ain't cheap.
    English Cycles V3 | Cervelo P5 | Cervelo T4 | Trek Domane Koppenberg
  • tumblr_lskru2nJ0u1qd7bw2o1_500.gif
    I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles
  • VTechVTech Posts: 4,736
    If you take a high quality set of wheels built for a set purpose, let's call it a 10k.
    Obviously we need to start with a decent workable set as the bike won't ride without them :)

    Now lets do the same even but with the worlds most expensive lightweight wheels.

    How many people would be faster ?

    My way of thinking which has been proven time and time again over the years is that you get to a plateau level where you gain up to a point where you reach that plateau level and no longer gain.

    Marketing tends to take over (in almost all cases) and gains taken from average road wheels to the elite which of course will show gains but how often do you see tests done from the best available against this new wonder product ?
    Living MY dream.
  • GrillGrill Posts: 5,610
    Look, I understand your confusion in this situation. As you've admitted cycling is not your field as if it were you would realise that aero trumps weight on TTs and you can't beat a disc paired with a deep section or trispoke for speed. Trying to quantify what you don't understand simply means that it's not the right product for you, but you don't speak for all cyclists.

    You seem to take issue over marketing, but as I stated that's not something Lightweight has to do. Can you find me examples of Lightweight marketing? How many Mavic and Fulcrum adds do you think you'll wade through before you even get to one example? Also, as Flasher pointed out Lightweights are not new, they started in 2003.

    BTW- I own the newest generation of what were once the most expense wheels in the word, and yes they're faster than my Elites, especially up hills.
    English Cycles V3 | Cervelo P5 | Cervelo T4 | Trek Domane Koppenberg
  • giant_mangiant_man Posts: 6,878
    VTech wrote:
    There is no need to spend this kind of money on bike wheels, there is no return for even the very best cyclists.
    foolish newbie comment ...
  • VTechVTech Posts: 4,736
    giant man wrote:
    VTech wrote:
    There is no need to spend this kind of money on bike wheels, there is no return for even the very best cyclists.
    foolish newbie comment ...

    So the plateau effect is fake, doesnt exist ?

    Also, do any of you believe that the same advice for a newbie stands for a pro ?
    Just wondering.
    Living MY dream.
  • GrillGrill Posts: 5,610
    No, it's just that when the rider plateaus then the most effective legal why to get faster is by adjusting choice of equipment depending on weight and aerodynamics. Surely you know this due to your involvement in F1...

    Ironic how your argument invalidates your occupation.
    English Cycles V3 | Cervelo P5 | Cervelo T4 | Trek Domane Koppenberg
  • VTechVTech Posts: 4,736
    No, thats the point, you get to a level where going lighter is detrimental.
    Living MY dream.
  • GrillGrill Posts: 5,610
    Not when climbing. 99.9% of roadies would rather be quicker uphill than down. On flats it doesn't make any noticeable difference.

    If you get lighter and keep the same wattage then your w/kg go up. You also need to keep in mind that the UCI sets a minimum weight of 6.8kg for the bike so it's all about shifting weight. Many teams run extra weight under the BB or in the seat tube in order to keep the wheels light.
    English Cycles V3 | Cervelo P5 | Cervelo T4 | Trek Domane Koppenberg
  • VTechVTech Posts: 4,736
    Grill wrote:
    Not when climbing. 99.9% of roadies would rather be quicker uphill than down. On flats it doesn't make any noticeable difference.

    If you get lighter and keep the same wattage then your w/kg go up. You also need to keep in mind that the UCI sets a minimum weight of 6.8kg for the bike so it's all about shifting weight. Many teams run extra weight under the BB or in the seat tube in order to keep the wheels light.

    I can appreciate weight shifting and how this would massively change the ride of a bike.
    I "think" the question from the poster was aimed at a level of a beginner, as from what I have read, any serious rider uses tubs not clinchers and as such I would guess that the difference between a good set of clinchers and the most expensive/lightest makes no difference because of several factors, skill, power, experience etc etc.
    There always seems to be multiple answers depending on both the question and who is asking it.

    Through my experience in the car world I have consistently seen gains from wheels, usually measured over the factory stock wheels to the new lightweight versions but the difference between high quality lightweight and the highest quality, lightest wheels are almost non-existant.
    I didnt intend for my comment to cause yet more uproar, it was just advice given to someone who is it seems in a similar position to me.
    Living MY dream.
  • GrillGrill Posts: 5,610
    The OP's join date was in 2004 so I hardly think he qualifies as a new rider. Even if he were he would actually notice more difference on a superior wheelset than one would on say an AR4 vs. a Triban 3.
    English Cycles V3 | Cervelo P5 | Cervelo T4 | Trek Domane Koppenberg
  • flasherflasher Posts: 1,734
    VTech wrote:
    I didnt intend for my comment to cause yet more uproar, it was just advice given to someone who is it seems in a similar position to me.

    But your advice is flawed, so maybe keep your opinions private until you have more knowledge.
  • sungodsungod Posts: 15,268
    for climbing, or accelerating or decelerating, going lighter makes an absolute difference in proportion to the reduction in total system weight, for a small reduction it's not noticeable, but a kilo+ is another matter, you can feel that

    i'm fortunate enough to have a set of obermayers, of course i don't need them, but that's true of most possessions, we have them for our pleasure and enjoyment, not to fulfill an essential need

    pay someone to redecorate or diy and get obermayers, duh

    when i ride them the difference vs. alloy clinchers is stunning, ultra light, ultra stiff, more comfortable on bad surfaces, and very tough (as road wheels, not as debris deflectors), without doubt they are the best wheels i've ever ridden

    my perfect three wheelset shed would be gipfelsturm, obermayer and fernweg, all tubs of course

    some may say that i'm two wheelsets short of a shed, but i luuuurve my obermayers
    my bike - faster than god's and twice as shiny
  • VTechVTech Posts: 4,736
    sungod wrote:
    for climbing, or accelerating or decelerating, going lighter makes an absolute difference in proportion to the reduction in total system weight, for a small reduction it's not noticeable, but a kilo+ is another matter, you can feel that

    i'm fortunate enough to have a set of obermayers, of course i don't need them, but that's true of most possessions, we have them for our pleasure and enjoyment, not to fulfill an essential need

    pay someone to redecorate or diy and get obermayers, duh

    when i ride them the difference vs. alloy clinchers is stunning, ultra light, ultra stiff, more comfortable on bad surfaces, and very tough (as road wheels, not as debris deflectors), without doubt they are the best wheels i've ever ridden

    my perfect three wheelset shed would be gipfelsturm, obermayer and fernweg, all tubs of course

    some may say that i'm two wheelsets short of a shed, but i luuuurve my obermayers

    Your comment has confirmed what I have been trying to get across, I am in agreement (apart from people thinking your mad, I have the same but we are all entitled to buy what makes us happy, as long as we can afford it)
    Living MY dream.
  • flasherflasher Posts: 1,734
    VTech wrote:
    sungod wrote:
    for climbing, or accelerating or decelerating, going lighter makes an absolute difference in proportion to the reduction in total system weight, for a small reduction it's not noticeable, but a kilo+ is another matter, you can feel that

    i'm fortunate enough to have a set of obermayers, of course i don't need them, but that's true of most possessions, we have them for our pleasure and enjoyment, not to fulfill an essential need

    pay someone to redecorate or diy and get obermayers, duh

    when i ride them the difference vs. alloy clinchers is stunning, ultra light, ultra stiff, more comfortable on bad surfaces, and very tough (as road wheels, not as debris deflectors), without doubt they are the best wheels i've ever ridden

    my perfect three wheelset shed would be gipfelsturm, obermayer and fernweg, all tubs of course

    some may say that i'm two wheelsets short of a shed, but i luuuurve my obermayers

    Your comment has confirmed what I have been trying to get across, I am in agreement (apart from people thinking your mad, I have the same but we are all entitled to buy what makes us happy, as long as we can afford it)

    You must live in some bizarre parallel universe, where the threads you contribute to have no relationship to the threads I'm reading!

    You said:
    VTech wrote:
    There is no need to spend this kind of money on bike wheels, there is no return for even the very best cyclists.
  • VTechVTech Posts: 4,736
    Flasher wrote:
    VTech wrote:
    sungod wrote:
    for climbing, or accelerating or decelerating, going lighter makes an absolute difference in proportion to the reduction in total system weight, for a small reduction it's not noticeable, but a kilo+ is another matter, you can feel that

    Your comment has confirmed what I have been trying to get across, I am in agreement (apart from people thinking your mad, I have the same but we are all entitled to buy what makes us happy, as long as we can afford it)

    You must live in some bizarre parallel universe, where the threads you contribute to have no relationship to the threads I'm reading!

    You said:
    VTech wrote:
    There is no need to spend this kind of money on bike wheels, there is no return for even the very best cyclists.

    Through my experience in the car world I have consistently seen gains from wheels, usually measured over the factory stock wheels to the new lightweight versions but the difference between high quality lightweight and the highest quality, lightest wheels are almost non-existant.


    Read my comments, even on earth they make sense.
    Living MY dream.
  • imposter2.0imposter2.0 Posts: 11,969
    giant man wrote:
    VTech wrote:
    There is no need to spend this kind of money on bike wheels, there is no return for even the very best cyclists.
    foolish newbie comment ...

    It isn't foolish - it's actually pretty accurate, so give the guy a break. The law of diminishing returns applies to wheels in the same way that it applies to everything else.
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