ASL enforcement?

Headhuunter

TGOTB wrote:

I'd guess around half the cars I see in ASLs on my commute are there accidentally, normally because they were queuing when the lights changed. Unless ASLs are treated like yellow box junctions, I can't see this being easy to enforce without a real person studying CCTV footage (which I should imagine would be very expensive).

The vast majority of motorcyclists are there on purpose; judging by the attitudes of the ones I've spoken to, a good proportion know they shouldn't be, but don't give a damn. I assume an enforcement policy which targets motorcyclists would be regarded as unfair or discriminatory, and in any case it might be hard to capture the number plates of motorcycles in a typical ASL.

Quite happy with this being enforced if it could be done fairly/sensibly, but I can't see how that would work.

Edit: Sketchley's post seems to indicate they already do have the same status as yellow box junctions; I never knew that!

Yeah motorcyclists and moped riders increasingly seem to flout ASLs. When they first appeared you used to get a couple of motorbikes in them here and there, nowadays they blatantly sit in them and more and more of them use cycle lanes to access them which is incredibly annoying as they often have to slow right down to squeeze along them....

clarkey cat

I don't have a problem with motorcyclists in the ASL as long as they enter from the right of the traffic.
Cyclists should, as pointed out earlier, join an ASL from a cycle lane (on the left) and its very rare that cyclists will use the full width of an ASL anyway so there is room for all 2 wheeled brethren IMO.

Cars (usually posh Mums in 4x4s and Addison Lee) that sit blithely in the ASL, forcing cyclists to sit in blindspots annoy me massively - but not as much as nodders shoaling at the ASL - or even worse, pushy hybrid riders (usually balding short fat men) that push and shove their way to the front only to wobble as they set off forcing everyone into the accelerating traffic as they need to overtake them. These people are the worst. Or those moron Allez riders in rugby shorts that overtake you as you are approaching a red light. God I'm ranting.

asprilla

clarkey cat wrote:

I don't have a problem with motorcyclists in the ASL as long as they enter from the right of the traffic.
Cyclists should, as pointed out earlier, join an ASL from a cycle lane (on the left) and its very rare that cyclists will use the full width of an ASL anyway so there is room for all 2 wheeled brethren IMO.

I hate sucking on motorcycle / moped exhaust at any time, least of all in the ASL. Every time I get to end of Rocks Lane they are there, either filling up the right hand side or blocking access to the ASL. Either that or they take off up the right hand side when the lights change.

It's a three lane junction with everyone going straight on, apart from cyclists who can turn right onto URR. No way in hell am I entering that ASL from the left and then crossing three lanes to sit at the right hand side and I could do without some fecker on a crotch rocket overtaking me as I'm turning right. I now just stand there with my arm out right and set off as slowly as I can.

You ride a scooter don't you Clarkey?

clarkey cat

occasionally I am known to partake in some crotch-rocketry, yes. Well, she's out of action at the moment as some feckin scrote ripped the seat off and stole my battery and my number plate.

Was it you?

asprilla

I ain't saying nuffink withart my brief.

veronese68

Sorry Clarkey but scooter does not equal crotch-rocketry. It's barely faster than a bicycle, it's the motorcycle equivalent of a hybrid.
I'm in the all 2 wheelers in the ASL camp. It's a lot safer for a motorbike to pull away from in front of the cars and have a stretch of clear road, possibly very short, than to try and pull away amongst the cars then pass them. I was taught to always try to get to the front of the queue at lights when I was training and if you are not seen to make good progress through traffic in your test you can get marked down for undue hesitation. At least you could 20 years ago. I don't think there were any ASLs on the Weybridge test route back then.
They definitely should not approach in the cycle lane or block access in any way though.

asprilla

I'm sue it is safer for the motorcyclist. It's not safer for me when they do it though and the ASL Is for my safety (although I'm willing to share it with other cyclists).

t4tomo

I like it best when scooter riders filter up the riight hand side of the traffic into the ASL and then pull straight across you as the lights turn green and turn left.

Headhuunter

To be honest, these days if I see the ASL has a load of motorbikes and scooters in it, I pull past the ASL clear of all of them and make my own space...

bigmat

Headhuunter wrote:

To be honest, these days if I see the ASL has a load of motorbikes and scooters in it, I pull past the ASL clear of all of them and make my own space...

+1

I sometimes make a point of sitting directly in front of the offending vehicle before slowly wobbling away, if I'm in a particularly beligerent mood. The ASL area is for push bikes. Motorbikes get in the way, they block the filtering gaps we use to get to the front of the queue, they pump out fumes, they are aggressive when the lights change - they just shouldn't be there. Pi**es me right off. Kick them out of bus lanes too while we're at it. :evil:

iPete

On places like CS8 there should be cycle ASL in the left two lanes and a motorbike ASL on the far right. It is wide enough.

Im not really sure what some people expect bikers to do, having a vehicle that can filter but not to the front defeats the point, may as well have a car if you are going to que. The only time they become a pain is when they block the gaps in.

Headhuunter

BigMat wrote:

Headhuunter wrote:

To be honest, these days if I see the ASL has a load of motorbikes and scooters in it, I pull past the ASL clear of all of them and make my own space...

+1

I sometimes make a point of sitting directly in front of the offending vehicle before slowly wobbling away, if I'm in a particularly beligerent mood. The ASL area is for push bikes. Motorbikes get in the way, they block the filtering gaps we use to get to the front of the queue, they pump out fumes, they are aggressive when the lights change - they just shouldn't be there. Pi**es me right off. Kick them out of bus lanes too while we're at it. :evil:

Definitely agree re bus lanes. I never had any problem with buses in bus lanes but since Bojo allowed mopeds and motorbikes in them, I often find myself riding with a moped right up my backside, revving to get past, either than or it tears past, almost brushing my right earlobe between me and the queuing traffic... Not sure what the stats are but I wonder how many accidents there have been between motorbikes and cyclists in bus lanes since they've been allowed there... More and more they seem to cut along cycle lanes as well - never saw this when I first started riding in London...

sketchley

All the stats are here re m/cs in bus lanes http://www.tfl.gov.uk/roadusers/redroutes/10151.aspx

philwi

I want cars, bikes and taxis out of the bike box so I can use it, please. Fines for drivers or cyclists who aren't able to follow basic safety rules is the *least dangerous* consequence of their actions. Let's hope that being fined improves their driving before someone gets hurt.

In Cambridge there's a huge problem with ASLs. I'd say about half the time there's a car or taxi in them. You can easily end up at the box with no place to go, which increases your danger.

May be 5% of the time I'll see a car which has been "stranded" in the box as the traffic moves forward. I don't think it's much to suggest that out or respect for cyclists, drivers avoid stopping in the bike boxes. That will increase my personal safety, and ensure you don't get fined. What's not to like?

I had been thinking that we were better off before these things were invented, as there was always room "in front", but now with cocky drivers using the boxes, you can easily be forced so far forward you can't see the light. Without enforcement these things are less than useless, so this is excellent news for cyclists and competent drivers.

Paul E

BigMat wrote:

Headhuunter wrote:

To be honest, these days if I see the ASL has a load of motorbikes and scooters in it, I pull past the ASL clear of all of them and make my own space...

+1

I sometimes make a point of sitting directly in front of the offending vehicle before slowly wobbling away, if I'm in a particularly beligerent mood. The ASL area is for push bikes. Motorbikes get in the way, they block the filtering gaps we use to get to the front of the queue, they pump out fumes, they are aggressive when the lights change - they just shouldn't be there. Pi**es me right off. Kick them out of bus lanes too while we're at it. :evil:

I hyave been known to partake in such things too, they put themselves in the wrong area so reap the rewards, kn0bs.

brianandrews

Shame these planned CCTV cameras can't be used to catch RLJers too...

The Rookie

philwi wrote:

May be 5% of the time I'll see a car which has been "stranded" in the box as the traffic moves forward. I don't think it's much to suggest that out or respect for cyclists, drivers avoid stopping in the bike boxes. That will increase my personal safety, and ensure you don't get fined. What's not to like?

I doubt very much will see a change to the traffic signs regulations to make being stranded an offence I'm afraid, just an ability for councils (possibly only London) to enforce the current law.

bigmat

The police were manning Elephant & Castle roundabout this morning (lights were down on approach from Walworth Road). Saw a couple of cars get ticketed for entering the ASL box. Ha ha!! (obviously being a good boy I stopped right on the line, no RLJ for me...)

monkimark

I saw the police/CPSOs were handing out flyers to vehicles stopped in the bike boxes down through clapham and kennington over the last couple of days warning that they'd be clamping down.

bigmat

monkimark wrote:

I saw the police/CPSOs were handing out flyers to vehicles stopped in the bike boxes down through clapham and kennington over the last couple of days warning that they'd be clamping down.

I guess it may have been a flyer rather than a ticket, still a move in the right direction though.

greg66_tri_v2.0

I *hate* moped/scooter riders with a passion. M/c riders less so, because (generally) they have better quality of skills. Moped/scooter riders, OTOH, I wish a fiery death.

And with all the emphasis on four wheeled vehicles that speed presenting a danger that is close to that of total human extinction (or so it seems) why are ALL two wheeled motorised vehicles apparently exempt from speed limits?

And while I'm at it, why (TF) are buses exempt from red lights and yellow box junctions? I get more sh!t of the arsey tosser variety, but a considerable margin, both when in my car and when riding a bike, from bus drivers. Addison Lee drivers are just completely oblivious to their surroundings and couldn't give a flying fcuk, but there are a lot of bus drivers who go out of their way to be tossers.

Fell a bit better for that.

greg66_tri_v2.0

Keyser__Soze wrote:

Just as last time this came up, I'm all for CCTV enforcement of ASLs and mandatory cycle lanes (provided the tech can discriminate between those entering ASL before red/amber light - ie in slow or stop/start traffic - and those after) as it'll keep cars out.

Much as I dislike anything except bikes in the CS lanes and ASL boxes, the problem with London is that ASLs are often coupled with yellow box junctions. You can, therefore, cross the first stop line (and maybe get part way over the second one) quite legitimately on a green, then not be able to progress further because the far side of the yellow box isn't clear. Lights then change and you're stuck without having done anything wrong.

However, TFL (who are rapacious as you like) use stills from video footage as the basis of tickets, and it would be easy as you like for them to issue tickets on the back of apparently incriminating stills when, in fact, the car/lorry has done nothing wrong.

il_principe

Greg66 Tri v2.0 wrote:

And while I'm at it, why (TF) are buses exempt from red lights and yellow box junctions? I get more sh!t of the arsey tosser variety, but a considerable margin, both when in my car and when riding a bike, from bus drivers. Addison Lee drivers are just completely oblivious to their surroundings and couldn't give a flying fcuk, but there are a lot of bus drivers who go out of their way to be tossers.

Fell a bit better for that.

+1 I've been sworn at a few times by TFL Bus drivers. WTF are they doing shouting obscenities when they're on the clock anyway? Don't get me started on the Tour buses either. Seemingly driven by people who couldn't even pass TFL's test. I regularly see them on my commute in - think they have a depot in Wandsworth. Always give them a very wide berth.

rjsterry

Il Principe wrote:

Greg66 Tri v2.0 wrote:

And while I'm at it, why (TF) are buses exempt from red lights and yellow box junctions? I get more sh!t of the arsey tosser variety, but a considerable margin, both when in my car and when riding a bike, from bus drivers. Addison Lee drivers are just completely oblivious to their surroundings and couldn't give a flying fcuk, but there are a lot of bus drivers who go out of their way to be tossers.

Fell a bit better for that.

+1 I've been sworn at a few times by TFL Bus drivers. WTF are they doing shouting obscenities when they're on the clock anyway? Don't get me started on the Tour buses either. Seemingly driven by people who couldn't even pass TFL's test. I regularly see them on my commute in - think they have a depot in Wandsworth. Always give them a very wide berth.

The cream and maroon ones (Big Bus Tour IIRC) go along Q'stown Rd, and up to Clapham Common. I've reported at least one of their drivers for some pretty shocking driving - trying to overtake a group of cyclist while negotiating the Cedars Rd/CC North Side junction. I don't go that way any more, but I see them again on Garratt Lane and on the Wandsworth Gyratory.

il_principe

rjsterry wrote:

Il Principe wrote:

Greg66 Tri v2.0 wrote:

And while I'm at it, why (TF) are buses exempt from red lights and yellow box junctions? I get more sh!t of the arsey tosser variety, but a considerable margin, both when in my car and when riding a bike, from bus drivers. Addison Lee drivers are just completely oblivious to their surroundings and couldn't give a flying fcuk, but there are a lot of bus drivers who go out of their way to be tossers.

Fell a bit better for that.

+1 I've been sworn at a few times by TFL Bus drivers. WTF are they doing shouting obscenities when they're on the clock anyway? Don't get me started on the Tour buses either. Seemingly driven by people who couldn't even pass TFL's test. I regularly see them on my commute in - think they have a depot in Wandsworth. Always give them a very wide berth.

The cream and maroon ones (Big Bus Tour IIRC) go along Q'stown Rd, and up to Clapham Common. I've reported at least one of their drivers for some pretty shocking driving - trying to overtake a group of cyclist while negotiating the Cedars Rd/CC North Side junction. I don't go that way any more, but I see them again on Garratt Lane and on the Wandsworth Gyratory.

I nearly broke my hand banging on the door of one that passed me then drifted into the cycle lane in Battersea, there were 3 other cyclists she was attempting to crush. Dozy driver seemed to have no idea we were there, or that it was a mandatory cycle lane.

Wrath Rob

There were PCSO's on all sides of VB this morning when I came through and strangely enough every dohped rider managed to stop at the correct white line. It was lovely having that space for cyclists to use properly.

Koncordski

Wrath Rob wrote:

There were PCSO's on all sides of VB this morning when I came through and strangely enough every dohped rider managed to stop at the correct white line. It was lovely having that space for cyclists to use properly.

That's the thing, every single one of them knows they're not supposed to be there but they'll give you grief if you point that out to them when the cops aren't around. :roll:

fat_tail

this morning at the Tower Hill bike box heading towards "The Highway" a scooter comes into the box behind a cyclist (not me) and when the lights turned green the scooter started beeping at the cyclist because he was a tad slow at clipping in. what a cnut.

I have had a few words with scooters in bike boxes but have now stopped as it is a waste of time. the police or council should enforce outright disregard for the bike boxes.

cookeeemonster

saw some (I think) ASL enforcement today on Grovesnor Road. Of course none of the funkers was going in it due to the high viz police there but I hope some got caught.

As for the motorbikes/Scooters argument...I've ridden both in london, and currently ride a vespa one or two days a week. Guess what? I dont go in the ASL AND NOT ONCE HAVE I EVER BEEN IN DANGER FROM ANYONE!!!!!!!!!

Now my vespa isn't slow compared to some scooters (276cc) but it's nothing compared to a 600cc motorbike. I dont mind so much if they stick to the right, dont go in the cycle lane, dont block the ASL and so on, but the amount of times I see them reach the ASL before any other traffic (significantly before, the last motorcycle rider to stick to the speed limit in london died in 1972) and just carry on into it is ridiculous...they just do it as their default behaviour now.

And dont get me on them in cycle lanes...especially lower/upper thames street...

The Rookie

fat_tail wrote:

the police or council should enforce outright disregard for the bike boxes.

Err...the point of this thread is that the councils are requesting just this power, right now they have no power to do it......