Confused over FTP and when to change it

harkmeadow

Hi

Recently got a powertap, so trying to get my head round changing my training sessions to take advantage of it. I did a 20 min test shortly after getting it and which was around 250. Times that by .95 and figured my FTP was about 237.

I've also been loading data into training peaks and getting auto updates on FTP. Since 30 April that has steadily been rising from 220, 231,243,254. Thing I don't get is what figure shoul I set in TKO, how often should I test , should I ignore TP THRESHOLD notifications etc. Or just use the highest 20 min values in TKO to base it on based on last mths training.

My worry is that I'm either training at too hard or too low amounts.

Thanks

ric/rstsport

don't use 0.95 * 20-min power, this isn't your FTP. try this http://alex-cycle.blogspot.co.uk/2008/0 ... -sins.html

no idea what or how the automatic thing in TP works as i don't use TP so can't comment on that!

buckles

I got a TP threshold notification that said my FTP is 125 watts.

harkmeadow

So according to TKO, my peak 20min and 60 min in the last four weeks are
20m - 268, 272, 251,256
60m - 242,251, 233,219

Still not sure then where i should be setting the FTP, and how often looking to retest / up it. For example if i go with the 60minute value then 251? Anyway we have a proper read of that link.

cheers

ric/rstsport

are you saying these are the best 20 & 60-min power readings over a 4 week period? you wouldn't necessarily set FTP based on the best results in such a short space of time. for e.g., you could say do an FTP test and get 300 W, then for the next 4 weeks do training where your best 60-mins power was 290 W. it could be that you didn't kill yourself in training every session and merely did 'doable' sessions. not every session has to be a power PB. you wouldn't drop your FTP setting to 290 W

harkmeadow

yes, thats exactly it. These are my best values from TKO. The bit i was / am struggling with is when you should be changing the FTP value. So if i get your point, its that i should take the value from an earlier test and then keep that for say a 6 week period and then retest and work off the new figure. So for work the zones off 250.

ric/rstsport

You change your FTP when you've had a change in fitness, not when an automated system tells you. It may be that the system is just giving you a pointer.

however, if we consider that you do an FTP and you get 300 W for 1 hr, then train for the next 6 months by knocking out a 2 x 20 @ 290 W three times a week, the automated system would tell you that you need to downgrade your FTP to 290 or lower. On the other hand it's highly likely that your FTP has stayed the same (and so the automated system is wrong).

even retesting with a formal test every 6 (or however many weeks you want) isn't the way forward. what happens if you'd been training doing 2 x 20 @ 295 W for 6 weeks and the day before the test day you have an argument with your partner/child/work or didn't eat enough/drank too much alcohol/etc and you did an an FTP and scored 280 W? is your fitness lower from now on, or was it just a useless test?

it's trends that are important

Setarkos

For now you can at least use 251W as a lower bound. 60min PB always gives you at least a lower bound.

As usual I recommend using critical power (Monod) - this method gives you a FTP estimate based on two intervals, one 3-5min and one 15-30min. The variable duration makes pacing less important because you don't need to do 20min spot on. So if after 18min you can't maintain the power you can stop and if you still have something left after 20min you can keep going.
These intervals should reflect your absolute best so do them well rested including warm-up as if they were a competition.
I'd say you can always use your personal best for the two interval ranges from the last 4-8 weeks and you can target certain values if you suspect your FTP might have increased (seven sins are always good indicators) and you can improve one of the intervals at a time.
I still don't know a good English link for this but this should be usable (untick 20s and 1min power): http://heiko.ploinger.de/monod/Monod.html

You would normally only lower your FTP if you've been struggling to achieve your target zones in threshold intervals repeatedly or if you had a longer time off the bike.

harkmeadow

Thanks for the replies chaps. I'll go with the 251 and see how I go for the next couple mths.

buckles

251 eh. Precise.

harkmeadow

Twat.

jibberjim

Buckles wrote:

251 eh. Precise.

I've had mine set at precisely 336 for the last 2 years... I'm sure it was right some of the time...

buckles

Harkmeadow wrote:

fool.

No need to get all defensive and insulting. Grow up.

indjke

I'm using quarq for 1,5 months.
After first race GC estimated my CP at ~240W and I set this figure in my Garmin.
Later it lowered number to ~230 but I hadn't changed settings.

My question: is it likely correct number (240W) according to data from recent race: http://connect.garmin.com/activity/327103696
I know that NP not the best predictor, but it was at average 240W mark almost for 2 hours (from 2nd to 6th laps)
So, is it correct to have 240W as CP(FTP) figure or 230 is closer?

(Yes, I haven't done 20 min test.. All estimations is made from different rides collection :roll: )

btw max AVERAGE power (not the NP) for an hour was exactly 230 W :roll:

indjke

Today rode a race included 20 min effort at average 253W.
GC changed CP estimate to 243W.
Question's answered

buckles

Surely you can't be that busy that you can't fit a test into your life?

indjke

I participated in races almost every weekend since bought a PM. So if I raced at Saturday there is no point to test at Sunday. And at workday evening there are absolutely no possibility to take a test in the city bounds and even near of it because of horrible traffic.

Honestly, it was more theoretical question than practical. Zones differ not so much between 230 & 240 FTP.
Moreover I don't do long intervals (assuming the reasons I told above), but only strength-endurance uphill intervals and short accelerations, where exact FTP knowledge doesn't matter...

buckles

Fair enough. To be honest I don't really have time to test. Too busy racing, eating or sleeping!

colinsmith123

On a similar vein, I rode an LVRC event at the Cyclopark last week, my average power for 1:20 was 260, my NP was 249. My best 1 hour is 236 average and 256 NP. I'm a bit confused how my averages for 1:20 can be greater than 1 hour. Any ideas?
And in keeping with OP's question, what's the best guesstimate of a revised FTP? I've gone with 245 but should it be higher?

https://www.trainingpeaks.com/ui/flextpdefault/flextpdefault.aspx

amaferanga

Autopause on or off? Garmin smart recording on or off?

I'm confused as to how your AP was 260W yet your NP was 249W.

Your TP link doesn't seem to work.

buckles

Perhaps your best hour wasn't actually the best you could do?

Alex_Simmons/RST

colinsmith123 wrote:

my average power for 1:20 was 260, my NP was 249.
Any ideas?

Sounds like it was not average power, but something else such as an average of non-zero values.

With the exception of relatively short duration mathematical anomalies, and provided they are correctly calculated then the Normalized Power from a section of ride will always be greater than or equal to Average Power.

And you had a 1:20 NP of 249W and a best 1-hour NP of 256W. Sounds like a totally plausible difference to me. The power-duration curve is very flat from 60 to 80 minutes.

indjke

Buckles wrote:

Fair enough. To be honest I don't really have time to test. Too busy racing, eating or sleeping!

I didn't say I totally can't do dedicated testing. But I almost always can do something more interesting or profitable instead. In the end, I like POV that the race is the best training and the best test

colinsmith123

Thanks for all the comments Guys.

amaferanga wrote:

Autopause on or off? Garmin smart recording on or off?

I'm confused as to how your AP was 260W yet your NP was 249W.

Your TP link doesn't seem to work.

Autopause - Off
Smart Recording - Every Second

Does this link work?

http://www.trainingpeaks.com/av/KLS7YTFKGHQ7ACMBN3RRLV77QM

Buckles wrote:

Perhaps your best hour wasn't actually the best you could do?

Oh, it was. I have not ridden that hard for an hour since I was 17, some 35 years ago. I failed to get the taste of blood in my mouth though, so still room for improvement

A bit bizarre I know, but to taste of blood in the mouth is one of my goals for this season. I recalled this sensation after Laura Trott won Gold last year in the pursuit when she said, "Everyone goes on about the lactic burn and all that. They talk about the weird feeling you get in your mouth when the pain is bad – it tastes like blood – but I love that feeling. That's just me."

Anyone know why we get this sensation?

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

colinsmith123 wrote:

my average power for 1:20 was 260, my NP was 249.
Any ideas?

Sounds like it was not average power, but something else such as an average of non-zero values.

With the exception of relatively short duration mathematical anomalies, and provided they are correctly calculated then the Normalized Power from a section of ride will always be greater than or equal to Average Power.

And you had a 1:20 NP of 249W and a best 1-hour NP of 256W. Sounds like a totally plausible difference to me. The power-duration curve is very flat from 60 to 80 minutes.

I was so baffled by the Average Power being above the NP, I had not compared one NP with another, thanks for that observation. Following convention and with my 1 hour NP being 256 am I correct to assume I could bump my FTP to this value from 245 for my next training block?

The Garmin is currently set to Non-Zero Average. Is this the correct setting, or should it be set to Zero Average?


I

amaferanga

Non-zero average excludes zeros from the power average so artificially inflates your numbers. You should change the setting to include zeros and you AP/NP will start to make more sense.

buckles

Just a guess but I think the blood in the mouth taste is because you're breathing so hard, perhaps causing microscopic damage to your throat or lungpipes, and tasting the particles that you're breathing out

indjke

Rode a Time Trial today
Actual distance: ~12,3 km / 7,7 miles
Time: 19:22 (~38,1 kph/ 23,8 mph)
Av Power: 276 W (no aero equip except TT-helmet)
New FTP value (CP from GC): 264 W :P