Ti bolts, yes or no?

Kowalski675

cyd190468 wrote:

One advantage of Ti over stainless is you can get anodised if you want pretty colours
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/like/1109352 ... e&lpid=107

The colours are usually pretty pastel pale though, and look rather wanky. It doesn't take colour like ally does. You can get coloured stainless fasteners too, just for the sake of argument (but they're not common)

cooldad

cyd190468 wrote:

The colours aren't as bright as Ti is a bit grey to start with, a bit like colouring in on grey paper

Never mind. When you are all growed up and can stay in the lines, mommy will buy you nice white paper.

njee20

It's not to do with the natural colour of ti, they're not duller colours, they're more 'washed out', pastel as Kowalski put it. You get more oxidation on alu.

You can however anodise ti easily with a can of Diet Coke and a 9V battery.

The Rookie

cyd190468 wrote:

One advantage of Ti over stainless is you can get anodised if you want pretty colours

No, steels can be anodised.

thelonegroover

nicklouse wrote:

why?

what is your Tech or workshop question?

if it is a general chat question use the General section

Ti is not as storng as Steel so care should be taken as to where they are used or should be monitored on a regularly.

Most steel or Ti bolts on a bike screw into aluminium alloy with a specific torque, so the strength of the bolt is largely irrelevant. Over tighten and the thread will be stripped using either steel or Ti.

Chunkers1980

Sheer?

thelonegroover

Chunkers1980...Sheer??

Kowalski675

Thelonegroover wrote:

Chunkers1980...Sheer??

I think he's (quite rightly) saying that you need to consider sheer strength too (in load bearing applications), rather than just how tight you can tighten without stripping threads.

02gf74

I use them in non-safety critical areas:
- stem = steel
- brake disc rotors, seat clamp, seat, brake callipers, skewers = Ti
- all other (gear shifters, mechs, brake levers, steerer cap) = Al

... and I don't understand why people say go= for a dump before a ride; firstly it is not always possible and you still can fit lightness to your bike too.

The Rookie

So brake discs aren't safety critical? Nay that I'd have an issue using them there or on the stem for that matter (many high end stems are Ti already)

rockmonkeysc

Go for stainless instead. Stem bolts are an area where I wouldn't use titanium.

Kowalski675

02GF74 wrote:

... and I don't understand why people say go= for a dump before a ride; firstly it is not always possible and you still can fit lightness to your bike too.

I don't understand why people spend silly money on titanium fasteners just to save a few grammes that they couldn't possibly feel in a back to back blind test anyway, but there's nowt so queer as folk...

02gf74

The Rookie wrote:

So brake discs aren't safety critical? Nay that I'd have an issue using them there or on the stem for that matter (many high end stems are Ti already)

maybe safety critcial was the wrong term, well I don't know what the correct term is but it would cover a part that when fails would mean instant accident where there is no time to react. Having the bars give way would very likley result going over the front of the bike; a brake calliper or disc rotor coming away would give some time to jump of the bike or swerve to avoid the obstacle plus there will still be the other brake working - I doubt both would become unusable at t he same time.

The Rookie

Unless the loose disc jams the front wheel up......

Ti has the same failure strength as steel, your concerns are unfounded!

02gf74

The Rookie wrote:

Unless the loose disc jams the front wheel up......

Ti has the same failure strength as steel, your concerns are unfounded!

correct on first point, not so much on second. Ti strength is same as "normal" steel bolts, about 8,8 T but the bolts used on stems are higher tensile, typically 14 Ti; I know there are stems that come with Ti bolts but I am sticking with steel for reasons mentioned; if you check out weightweenies, there have been a couple of Ti bolt failures on stems (most likely due to being overtightened?) but none that I can remember for brakes or brake rotors.

The secret rider

I agree the weight is all so little it hardly seems worth doing ... However for me they will be a nice to do when I get my new brakes I will for the discs with it bolts.

Yes it's a lot of -grams for your £ but, you only live once right

njee20

Kowalski675 wrote:

02GF74 wrote:

... and I don't understand why people say go= for a dump before a ride; firstly it is not always possible and you still can fit lightness to your bike too.

I don't understand why people spend silly money on titanium fasteners just to save a few grammes that they couldn't possibly feel in a back to back blind test anyway, but there's nowt so queer as folk...

Saving a little bit of weight on lots of components adds up to a lot, which you can feel. Always think it's an absolute last resort though.

Kowalski675

njee20 wrote:

Kowalski675 wrote:

02GF74 wrote:

... and I don't understand why people say go= for a dump before a ride; firstly it is not always possible and you still can fit lightness to your bike too.

I don't understand why people spend silly money on titanium fasteners just to save a few grammes that they couldn't possibly feel in a back to back blind test anyway, but there's nowt so queer as folk...

Saving a little bit of weight on lots of components adds up to a lot, which you can feel.

But unless you're the Sultan of Brunei you need to consider the law of diminishing returns too, and there's plenty of areas you could save considerably more weight, considerably more cheaply than titanium fasteners.

Kowalski675

02GF74 wrote:

maybe safety critcial was the wrong term, well I don't know what the correct term is but it would cover a part that when fails would mean instant accident where there is no time to react. Having the bars give way would very likley result going over the front of the bike; a brake calliper or disc rotor coming away would give some time to jump of the bike or swerve to avoid the obstacle plus there will still be the other brake working - I doubt both would become unusable at t he same time.

Really? So when you're doing 30mph or so down a descent, hit the brakes and the brake rotor or caliper shear off and jam in the wheel, you're going to be able to just hop off and land on your feet unscathed? Ever tried running at 30mph? I've heard it all now... :roll:

russyh

Kowalski675 wrote:

njee20 wrote:

Kowalski675 wrote:

02GF74 wrote:

... and I don't understand why people say go= for a dump before a ride; firstly it is not always possible and you still can fit lightness to your bike too.

I don't understand why people spend silly money on titanium fasteners just to save a few grammes that they couldn't possibly feel in a back to back blind test anyway, but there's nowt so queer as folk...

Saving a little bit of weight on lots of components adds up to a lot, which you can feel.

But unless you're the Sultan of Brunei you need to consider the law of diminishing returns too, and there's plenty of areas you could save considerably more weight, considerably more cheaply than titanium fasteners.

That's a bit of an over reaction, they are not that expensive. If you have already explored every other avenue in terms of weight reduction then I don't see the problem in making a titanium cherry for the top of your cake.

Not sure I would upgrade my bolt set to ti as my first upgrade, however it would be on (and is) my shopping list as the last big of the project

The Rookie

02GF74 wrote:

Ti strength is same as "normal" steel bolts, about 8,8 T but the bolts used on stems are higher tensile, typically 14 Ti;.

Ti (typical alloy such as AL4 Ti) are indeed the same as 8.8, most bike bolts aren't marked but won't be above 10.8 due to the embrittlement issues with higher grade (12.9) bolts, having said that the bolts are stronger than the ally threaded into so I doubt the steel bolts are anything more than 8.8 anyway. Not sure what 14 Ti means?

njee20

Kowalski675 wrote:

njee20 wrote:

Kowalski675 wrote:

02GF74 wrote:

... and I don't understand why people say go= for a dump before a ride; firstly it is not always possible and you still can fit lightness to your bike too.

I don't understand why people spend silly money on titanium fasteners just to save a few grammes that they couldn't possibly feel in a back to back blind test anyway, but there's nowt so queer as folk...

Saving a little bit of weight on lots of components adds up to a lot, which you can feel.

But unless you're the Sultan of Brunei you need to consider the law of diminishing returns too, and there's plenty of areas you could save considerably more weight, considerably more cheaply than titanium fasteners.

Yes, which is why if you read my entire post, not cherry picking the part that suits you'll say I said it's a last resort, when there aren't areas to save "more weight, considerably more cheaply". :roll:

Kowalski675

I did read it all. That doesn't make my post any less correct though. You know what they say about fools and their money...

njee20

There's an old article on Weight Weenies, which quantifies the potential savings of replacing with ti/alu at c150g on a v-brake equipped bike. Few more bolts on a disc equipped bike, but call it the same for argument's sake. That would cost less than £150, so less than £1/g, so actually once you're into lightweight territory, it's not a bad place to look.

Of course the alu bolts save most, and cost far less, so if you want to save weight overall that's the more cost effective solution.

gt-arrowhead

Im thinking to test out Aluminium caliper bolts. Just put them on the front where i have a 203 rotor and go up and down my road and brake really hard until i come to a stand still. Just to see if it really is unsafe. Id probably do it 30 or so times, if it doesn't break after that then id be confident.

Ive been using aluminium rotor bolts for ages now and they have been fine.

cooldad

I believe it takes 31 stops to snap them.

The Rookie

Aluminium fatigues every time you use it, if you have IS mount then I'd chance ally bolts as it's the friction created by the bolts tension that holds the calliper in place, not the bolt in sheer, if I had PM mounts I may consider the trailing bolt as it's not in tension, the leading bolt (the first one a point on the disc passes as it rotates) then no way as it's in tension.

Clamp bolts such as shifter and brake lever make most sense as again the bolt creates a friction that does the holding it in place job.

gt-arrowhead

cooldad wrote:

I believe it takes 31 stops to snap them.

Knowing my luck that would happen!

The Rookie wrote:

Aluminium fatigues every time you use it, if you have IS mount then I'd chance ally bolts as it's the friction created by the bolts tension that holds the calliper in place, not the bolt in sheer, if I had PM mounts I may consider the trailing bolt as it's not in tension, the leading bolt (the first one a point on the disc passes as it rotates) then no way as it's in tension.

Clamp bolts such as shifter and brake lever make most sense as again the bolt creates a friction that does the holding it in place job.

That makes sense, i can see how there would be more sheering force applied to the mentioned bolt on the post mounts.

Is it possible to get anodized stainless steel bolts?

Kowalski675

GT-Arrowhead wrote:

Im thinking to test out Aluminium caliper bolts.

Rather you than me.

Kowalski675

GT-Arrowhead wrote:

Is it possible to get anodized stainless steel bolts?

http://www.gwr-fasteners.co.uk/gwr-colourfast-14-w.asp