Program on channel 4 last night SKINT

Cleat Eastwood

GiantMike wrote:

the state of the roads.....

VTech

Just a question;

What is wrong with forced labour ?
I mean that if your unemployed and able to work, why not be made to work for your benefits ?
Maybe 2-3 days a week leaving you 2 days to look for alternative work ? Wouldnt this persuade people to get back into work ?
I realise some people struggle to find work but contrary to what has been posted on this forum as *fact* I am of the opinion that there are indeed a few people unwilling to work, choosing instead the easy life of existence off the state.

the playing mantis

VTech wrote:

Just a question;

What is wrong with forced labour ?
I mean that if your unemployed and able to work, why not be made to work for your benefits ?
Maybe 2-3 days a week leaving you 2 days to look for alternative work ? Wouldnt this persuade people to get back into work ?
I realise some people struggle to find work but contrary to what has been posted on this forum as *fact* I am of the opinion that there are indeed a few people unwilling to work, choosing instead the easy life of existence off the state.

nothing really, its a bit demeaning, but it would also lessen the need for unskilled migrants and thus solve another problem. if people were forced into doing jobs they otherwise wouldnt do as the wage is too low, and that currently are filled by unskilled migrants.

i dont think that would go down too well though in the liberal world we live in now though

VTech

I dont think it would be demeaning. Surely the demeaning part is living a free life as others pay ?
Also, the minimum wage is there for a reason so how would the average person working on minimum wage feel knowing that so many people who dont wish to work get higher overall money than them per week ? Its like punishing the working surely ?
I would clean chewing gum off pavements if it meant I could feed my kids.

GiantMike

I don't think it's sensible to push people into jobs that are already being done. It's more about getting things done that would otherwise not be completed, either because there's no money to do it or no financial incentive for anybody to provide the service.

For example, somebody could stand on top of a tall chimney shouting the weather to tax-paying passers-by. Or somebody could stand outside a Tube station ready to explain how to correctly use an apostrophe if a tax-payer needed such information. Or somebody could leave post-it notes on windscreens giving you a score for the quality of tax-payers' parking. Or, 3 women could stand in the High Street and give you advice on what to buy your wife for her Birthday. The list of essential but unfilled jobs is endless.

VTech

But thats not what anyone would suggest surely ?

Cleaning the high streets, graffiti, helping government schemes, parks etc etc etc, the list is endless of jobs that need doing and no one is willing.

GiantMike

VTech wrote:

But thats not what anyone would suggest surely ?

I would. Imagine how much somebody shouting "20mph southerly wind, 15 degrees celcius. Looks a bit showery, you might need an umbrella this afternoon" would cheer you up. Or getting a 9 or 10 for your parking.

Somebody could shout "nice bike, mate" and give a thumbs up to cyclists. Worth paying tax for.

fast as fupp

VTech wrote:

But thats not what anyone would suggest surely ?

Cleaning the high streets, graffiti, helping government schemes, parks etc etc etc, the list is endless of jobs that need doing and no one is willing.

they already have folk doing that they are called council employees/contractors.

should we sack all them and replace them with doleslaves?

there already is a forced labour scheme its called workfare- profit making companies such as tesco, asda, argos and homebase get free staff from the dole queue- this allows them to reduce the hours of their full time staff and lay people off thereby increasing their profits. whilst us taxpayers subsidise it.

i presume you are unaware of this because you dont seem very aware about much really?

daviesee

fast as fupp wrote:

they already have folk doing that they are called council employees/contractors.

should we sack all them and replace them with doleslaves?

Is the work being done in your area fully and to a satisfactory level?
Cos it sure isn't in my neck of the woods due to cost cutting.
Extra already paid for man hours would definitely help.
Anyone out of work for more than 6 months could help their community. Is that so bad?

VTech

fast as fupp wrote:

VTech wrote:

But thats not what anyone would suggest surely ?

Cleaning the high streets, graffiti, helping government schemes, parks etc etc etc, the list is endless of jobs that need doing and no one is willing.

they already have folk doing that they are called council employees/contractors.

should we sack all them and replace them with doleslaves?

there already is a forced labour scheme its called workfare- profit making companies such as tesco, asda, argos and homebase get free staff from the dole queue- this allows them to reduce the hours of their full time staff and lay people off thereby increasing their profits. whilst us taxpayers subsidise it.

i presume you are unaware of this because you dont seem very aware about much really?

I am aware that when I work, I get paid and when I get paid I pay my bills and keep the family intact
There are plenty of council work or charity organisations needing free labour which imo would assist people who have no work. Ask yourself this, how would you feel staying at home not having anything to live for ?

Making unemployed work would be a gift not a hinderance.
As with many things in life, its how you view it, not what it is.

fast as fupp

so you work for pay.

but would expect others to work for free? and consider this a gift?

by my reckoning that make you a hypocrite. no?

or perhaps you should offer to work for free for your employer?

just to see how you would manage.

VTech

fast as fupp wrote:

so you work for pay.

but would expect others to work for free? and consider this a gift?

by my reckoning that make you a hypocrite. no?

or perhaps you should offer to work for free for your employer?

just to see how you would manage.

Thats an odd statement, I work for pay, always have done, always will do unless its charity work or for friends then of course a cup of tea will do.
As an unemployed person, they would be paid handsomely, as it stands at the minute, free rent, free council tax, free money, free dental, free prescriptions, free kids meals, free kids kindergarten, free this that and the other so no, I dont expect them to work for free, far from it.
I would only expect them to earn what they get for free.

the playing mantis

there not working for free as such, they are working for their benefits. simples

VTech

the playing mantis wrote:

there not working for free as such, they are working for their benefits. simples

Amen !

fast as fupp

pair of jokers you two.

utterly clueless.

lets hope you dont fall on hard times (not).

the playing mantis

fast as fupp wrote:

pair of jokers you two.

utterly clueless.

lets hope you dont fall on hard times (not).

nice comment.

just because i was clearing up what vtech was insinuating doesnt mean i necessarily support it. from my perepective as long as i wasnt incapicatated i would be happy to do volunteer/community work along side my job seeking if i was to be unfortunate enough to end up on benefits.

Frank the tank

Getting away from the work for your benefit argument. I believe there should be a system in place whereby the claimant has to turn up at a given location (Job centre, local post office or some such place) and have to "clock on" on a daily basis before 8.00am every week day. If you're late you lose that days benefit.

I'm talking of able bodied people not the genuinely incapacitated who would recieve more leeway.

VTech

fast as fupp wrote:

pair of jokers you two.

utterly clueless.

lets hope you dont fall on hard times (not).

Your answer is to insult me and hope that I end up in hard times ?
Thats strange, I wouldnt wish that on anyone. I came from a council estate and my parents didnt have a pot to pi55 in yet they worked, always did until my dad died and my mom still works now, free of charge for a care charity looking after senile dementia sufferers.
I got out of the system by working hard, 6 and 7 day weeks when only being paid £27.50 on YTS. I paid myself through college and did a degree, again paid for entirely by myself.
I had a kid when I was 23 and the wife 18 and again, have paid every penny since he was born and for our other 2 kids since they were born.

I am not trying to take away from the fact that there are genuine people looking for work who cant get jobs but you already knew that. My point is that any self respecting man/woman would rather work than sit at home taking free money, even if that work was charity based with no income above benefits.

I grew up in longbridge so I know unemployment, I just chose to take whatever was available and yes, I will admit that ive been fortunate and maybe it is easier for someone who has been fortunate to be so forceful in opinions about working but I truly believe they are genuine and based solely on people wanting to better themselves, even if that means cleaning a street in order to get the rent paid.

@Frank the tank, great idea, make people get into a routine of being active and up like those that work. It does become easy to have the daily "lye-in" when there is no need to get up.

fast as fupp

BLAH! BLAH BLAH! weve had your life story- its a pity youve lost whatever compassion you ever had for those where you grew up.

frank- i think the jobcentres would need a lot more staff if your plan were to be put into place! (perhaps we could have workfare staff in the jobcentres- in fact everyone could work for £71.00 per week!)

but who would get rich as no one would have money to spend!

VTech

fast as fupp wrote:

BLAH! BLAH BLAH! weve had your life story- its a pity youve lost whatever compassion you ever had for those where you grew up.

frank- i think the jobcentres would need a lot more staff if your plan were to be put into place! (perhaps we could have workfare staff in the jobcentres- in fact everyone could work for £71.00 per week!)

but who would get rich as no one would have money to spend!

Can I ask, do you work ?
The reason I ask is that you seem to have an unhealthy love of people not working and not wanting to work which I struggle to come to terms with. As for compassion, How would you know what compassion I have ? I feel that I do my fair share for society in that I do what I can which is no more or no less than someone who helps at a local kids club one a week. The point is, the more we do, the better we are all going to be. There is no benefit from choosing to not work over offering labour to society or assistance to your local community.

Cleat Eastwood

People can choose to work or not - we're not put on this planet to bide our time to someone elses wishes - thankfully the attitude that a persons worth can be measured in pounds and pence is fast coming to an end and its becoming apparent that a persons worth is best left to them to define, and if it is to be defined collectively then let that persons value be how much they contribute to the massive pool of generosity, good will and support to others.

This man according to some is a waste of space. His currency is lurve

VTech

Cleat Eastwood wrote:

People can choose to work or not - we're not put on this planet to bide our time to someone elses wishes - thankfully the attitude that a persons worth can be measured in pounds and pence is fast coming to an end and its becoming apparent that a persons worth is best left to them to define, and if it is to be defined collectively then let that persons value be how much they contribute to the massive pool of generosity, good will and support to others.

This man according to some is a waste of space. His currency is lurve

That man is a credit to society.
Just to be clear, at no point have I put a currency value on work, value is there simply because working should, if all is well afford the person the ability to house, feed and cloth themselves. Other than that money isnt the issue, its about the knowledge that you are doing something of value rather than simply existing.

ballysmate

fast as fupp wrote:

BLAH! BLAH BLAH! weve had your life story- its a pity youve lost whatever compassion you ever had for those where you grew up.

frank- i think the jobcentres would need a lot more staff if your plan were to be put into place! (perhaps we could have workfare staff in the jobcentres- in fact everyone could work for £71.00 per week!)

but who would get rich as no one would have money to spend!

But it doesn't stop at 71 quid a week does it? There are all the other benefits on top, such as housing benefit council tax reduction etc.
What people have been advocating is claimants contributing something to the community in exchange for their benefits. I personally can not see anything wrong with that. People in work are contributing money through tax, the unemployed, who are not in a position to contribute through the tax system, contribute time and effort. Thus everyone is contributing to society.
If people objected to doing some form of work in return for their benefits, then fine. It is not obligatory to claim is it?

fast as fupp

yes vtech i do work and have done for some considerable time.


housing benefit isnt spending money- it goes to the landlord to pay their inflated and uncontrolled rents. should people out of work live on the streets?

the unemployed are taxed- their benefits are treated as taxable income and affect their tax code when they re-commence work.

i would hardly call stacking shelves in tesco or poundland a contribution to society- more a contribution to these firms already high profits. do you know these companies are laying off paid staff in order to use 'free' labour.

if people work they should be paid- at least at minimum wage.

VTech

fast as fupp wrote:

yes vtech i do work and have done for some considerable time.


housing benefit isnt spending money- it goes to the landlord to pay their inflated and uncontrolled rents. should people out of work live on the streets?

the unemployed are taxed- their benefits are treated as taxable income and affect their tax code when they re-commence work.

i would hardly call stacking shelves in tesco or poundland a contribution to society- more a contribution to these firms already high profits. do you know these companies are laying off paid staff in order to use 'free' labour.

if people work they should be paid- at least at minimum wage.

There you go. So what your saying is in fact you totally and utterly agree with me 100% !
I too feel the same, they should not work for free, they should also not benefit fat cat companies either.

So with that in mind, they should be on at least minimum wage which those on housing benefit and unemployment are, in fact much much more.
Also, I would prefer them working with charities or youth/local work groups helping the underprivileged and less fortunate.

ballysmate

fast as fupp wrote:

yes vtech i do work and have done for some considerable time.


housing benefit isnt spending money- it goes to the landlord to pay their inflated and uncontrolled rents. should people out of work live on the streets?

the unemployed are taxed- their benefits are treated as taxable income and affect their tax code when they re-commence work.

i would hardly call stacking shelves in tesco or poundland a contribution to society- more a contribution to these firms already high profits. do you know these companies are laying off paid staff in order to use 'free' labour.

if people work they should be paid- at least at minimum wage.

No, I agree that companies should not use 'free labour'.
I also do not think you should be denigrating people, based on their occupation. Shelf stacker or brain surgeon, people are due respect. I find it strange that you support the rights of the benefit claimants so vehemently, but appear to look down on a sector of society because they work for a particular company or in a particular sector.
Of course firms employ people with a view of turning a profit. What do you suggest? We all live in some commune or join workers co-operatives.

fast as fupp

im not denigrating supermarket workers - they do more for society than the banking classes for example. i denigrate the fact that people are being ruthlessly exploited.

and vtech you do know that most of the people claiming housing benefit are actually employed?

VTech

fast as fupp wrote:

im not denigrating supermarket workers - they do more for society than the banking classes for example. i denigrate the fact that people are being ruthlessly exploited.

and vtech you do know that most of the people claiming housing benefit are actually employed?

Without wanting to sound rude, I dont really have an interest in whats claimed other than that I think people should do what they can to attain self respect and sitting at home giving up doesnt help them or anyone. I realise people will always have different views on life and mine wont match everyone else's, I just think that being in the game (doing something) gives people a better chance to get ahead.

Frank the tank

fast as fupp wrote:

BLAH! BLAH BLAH! weve had your life story- its a pity youve lost whatever compassion you ever had for those where you grew up.

frank- i think the jobcentres would need a lot more staff if your plan were to be put into place! (perhaps we could have workfare staff in the jobcentres- in fact everyone could work for £71.00 per week!)

but who would get rich as no one would have money to spend!

The thinking behind the idea of "clocking on" is to keep people in the routine of getting up and going out, rather than just vegetating in bed.

The method could be along the lines of a chip and pin type of card at a hole in the wall type of thing.

I'm not into demonising people on benefits the vast majority are genuine claimants. I'm just thinking of one way to stop people falling into a state of despair.

VTech

You know, this is also a way of life which changes when there is no need to get up every day.

A couple of years ago my mom had to take a few weeks off work through no fault of her own, in all it was 6+ weeks and when she returned to work she said it was incredibly hard because she had become accustomed to not going in every day and had "grown lazy" (her words) and found every day a struggle.
She is fine now but it took a while to get back into the swing.