Joe Friel Zones - HR v Power zones

edten
edten Posts: 228
edited May 2013 in Training, fitness and health
I'm currently following Friel's training plan as in his 'Training Bible'. I'm a little confused about his reference to zones in some of the workouts. For example in workout M2 (p303) it states build to zones 4 and 5a. If using power and HR, is 5a suggesting to aim for lower Z5 on the power meter? On M2 it also mentions Zone 4, I'm not sure if this is the power zone to be worked at, and 5a is just the HR zone. In short higher intensity intervals I refer more to power but the ref to HR zones 5a (not listed in the power zone percentages table) confuses things a little.

If 5a is stating that power to be kept at lower Zone 5 then I assume that 5a, 5b, 5c, although HR zones, also refer to intensity of Power zone 5. I use rollers for intervals so easy (not so easy depending on intensity!!) to nail the power spot on.

Comments

  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    Not sure I understand the question, but HR is not a good measure for high intensity intervals, if that helps.
  • Chebrikov
    Chebrikov Posts: 29
    Think you should decide if you are going to train using heart rate zones or power zones. Power would be better provided you have a real power meter which is calibrated correctly and gives repeatable results.
  • edten
    edten Posts: 228
    The question isn't about whether I need to train with power or heart rate. I am asking about specific Joe Friel training zones specified in his training bible. If one of Friel's workout is stating 5a, 5b or 5c (these are HR zones) but no ref to the power zone what is the equivalent power zone to each of these 3 zones. Is anywhere in power zone 5 that enables completion of the stated intervals sufficient or should I aim lower Z5 for 5a and upper Z5 for 5c? For anyone not familiar with the book or his training zones then you may not understand the question.
  • Tom Dean
    Tom Dean Posts: 1,723
    edten wrote:
    The question isn't about whether I need to train with power or heart rate. I am asking about specific Joe Friel training zones specified in his training bible. If one of Friel's workout is stating 5a, 5b or 5c (these are HR zones) but no ref to the power zone what is the equivalent power zone to each of these 3 zones. Is anywhere in power zone 5 that enables completion of the stated intervals sufficient or should I aim lower Z5 for 5a and upper Z5 for 5c? For anyone not familiar with the book or his training zones then you may not understand the question.
    power zone 5 in what system?

    The Friel HR zones 5a, 5b and 5c are described as superthreshold, aerobic capacity and anaerobic capacity. This might be roughly 100-110%, 110-120% and >120% FTP?
  • edten
    edten Posts: 228
    5a 5b 5c refer to Friels HR zones relating to LTHR not FTP. Friels Power zones (he uses Coggan's zones) do not have 5a 5b 5c. Its confusing as short intensity interval training you are better to refer to power zones not HR, as you can immediately pinpoint the effort with power. However Friels short intensity workouts are referring to HR zones of 5a,b,c. Zone 5 power in Coggan zones is 106%-120%. Is 5a equivalent to Z5(power), 5b equivalent to Z6 (power) and 5c equivalent to Z7(power)? or are they all sitting within Zone 5(power), I think more than likely 5b & 5c refer to Z6 and Z7.
  • Tom Dean
    Tom Dean Posts: 1,723
    I think LT is equivalent to FT in this definition, it says a 40k TT is 100% LT.

    Based on the descriptions I mentioned earlier it would be more like 5a = top end of L4, 5b = L5, 5c = L6.
  • edten
    edten Posts: 228
    hmmm, could explain why those 5a intervals felt so bloody painful as I was doing them at Z5!!
  • Lazybike
    Lazybike Posts: 22
    Here's a handy calculator... http://mtbcoach.com/index.php/training- ... alculator/
  • Chebrikov
    Chebrikov Posts: 29
    edten wrote:
    hmmm, could explain why those 5a intervals felt so bloody painful as I was doing them at Z5!!

    What are you using to measure power?
  • edten
    edten Posts: 228
    Either a quarq Elsa or a quarq cinqo. Nothing wrong with them by the way.
  • edten
    edten Posts: 228
    Lazybike wrote:
    Here's a handy calculator... http://mtbcoach.com/index.php/training- ... alculator/

    Perfect thanks, this looks like it uses the coggan power zones and Friel's HR zones. So 5a b and c relate to z5,6,7 for sure. Solved!
  • Chebrikov
    Chebrikov Posts: 29
    edten wrote:
    Either a quarq Elsa or a quarq cinqo. Nothing wrong with them by the way.


    I don't understand why you are looking at heart rate zones when you are training with power?
  • Tom Dean
    Tom Dean Posts: 1,723
    edten wrote:
    Lazybike wrote:
    Here's a handy calculator... http://mtbcoach.com/index.php/training- ... alculator/

    Perfect thanks, this looks like it uses the coggan power zones and Friel's HR zones. So 5a b and c relate to z5,6,7 for sure. Solved!
    Not really, because you can't line the levels up exactly and they are described differently in the two systems - the chart in that link shows Coggan L6 as aerobic capacity and L7 as anaerobic capacity, which is misleading. Top end sprinting (Coggan L7) in Friel is not given a HR level.
  • edten
    edten Posts: 228
    Chebrikov wrote:
    edten wrote:
    Either a quarq Elsa or a quarq cinqo. Nothing wrong with them by the way.


    I don't understand why you are looking at heart rate zones when you are training with power?

    I find both important. The HR testing (ramp test with gas analysis) I get, pinpoints the exact transition from fat burning to utilizing glycogen - very helpful for nailing endurance training. The test is used to sets my HR zones. These are the same to JFriels zones in description but my personal numbers for the zones are different as the test give insight into when specific 'things' take place in the HR profile. If I am training with HR (depends on the type of training) then I use the HR zones from the test.

    With regards to training with power. If I'm doing shorter intensity stuff where HR may take a while to get up to the prescribed level -i.e. 1-20min efforts. With power I know from the start of the interval I'm at the right intensity. Very helpful when you have 5 intervals on the rivet and you want to avoid hammering it to get your heart rate up then you end up blowing up. I do these on the rollers and can be very precise. (I could use feel but power eliminates some of the guess work and some are better than others at riding on feel). So hence the question about which HR zone relates to which power zone, as I didn't find it clear in Friel's book. By the way I didnt buy a power meter just for short intervals. I use it for; power testing, I like having additional metrics than just HR or just power, it's good to see how power improves over months& years, (from HR testing I like to see how I become more and more efficient at fat burning over the months & years), I like checking out the power stats from races.

    This works for me and that's all that counts.
  • edten
    edten Posts: 228
    Tom Dean wrote:
    edten wrote:
    Lazybike wrote:
    Here's a handy calculator... http://mtbcoach.com/index.php/training- ... alculator/

    Perfect thanks, this looks like it uses the coggan power zones and Friel's HR zones. So 5a b and c relate to z5,6,7 for sure. Solved!
    Not really, because you can't line the levels up exactly and they are described differently in the two systems - the chart in that link shows Coggan L6 as aerobic capacity and L7 as anaerobic capacity, which is misleading. Top end sprinting (Coggan L7) in Friel is not given a HR level.

    You're dead right! I just had another look and it would be 'more' correct assuming power z4 is across HR Z4 and HR Z5a. Power z6 is HR 5c and power Zone 7 is all out short efforts. Thanks for the call out.

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