Interval routines for the road?

bobones

Can anyone suggest some good interval routines to practise out on the road? After a good winter of turbo and road work, and following a crash where I lost some enthusiasm and confidence, I am now recommitting to some serious training because everyone else I ride with seem to be improving while I am getting worse!

In general I need to improve my FTP (doesn't everyone?) as I am not as strong as most riders in my club and I am especially weak when there is a strong headwind. I would also like to develop some kind of sprint, just to compete at border sign sprints in club runs. I do not race, but might do some club APRs or TTs. I have around 11k miles riding experience in 2.5 years, currently doing around 600mi/36hrs per month. The only goal I have at the moment is to be able to complete a rolling 20 mile circuit I do regularly in under 1 hour, but I just want to become a stronger cyclist all round and get dropped less often!

The last couple of days, I have tried a couple of sessions of 5 x 5/1 Z4 HR out on the road and did one 2 x 20 Z4 HR this morning. I think I need to do a lot more Z4/Z5 work as I've not really being pushing myself hard enough since I've stopped riding the turbo regularly.

While I think these routines will do me some good, are there any other good workouts you can suggest? Should I throw some hill repeats into the mix, if so how long does a climb need to be and how many repeats? Do I need more structure to my training than just firing into some intervals during the week?

On a good week I will do around 10 hours of riding, which includes 3 club rides or varying intensity (1.5, 2.5 and 3.5hrs). Should I ditch some of these rides and do my own thing? Do I need to up the time and intensity to see any gains? (Looking at Trimp stress graphs on GC - I seem to be plateauing out on long term stress metrics).

Any help or advice appreciated.

Chebrikov

Try clearing your mind of Trimp stress graphs on GC and plateauing out on long term stress metrics and refuse to ever be dropped again.

You are doing 3 decent rides a week so you should be improving, I would not like to see someone drop club rides, so why not incorporate intervals into the club rides? Go on the front and do some 5 minute turns.

What are you doing to measure performance?

How hard are you finding the club rides, do you recover well from one before the next? How are the rides spaced over the week?

You might benefit from setting a more specific goal or goals.

ric/rstsport

bobones wrote:

Can anyone suggest some good interval routines to practise out on the road? After a good winter of turbo and road work, and following a crash where I lost some enthusiasm and confidence, I am now recommitting to some serious training because everyone else I ride with seem to be improving while I am getting worse!

In general I need to improve my FTP (doesn't everyone?) as I am not as strong as most riders in my club and I am especially weak when there is a strong headwind. I would also like to develop some kind of sprint, just to compete at border sign sprints in club runs. I do not race, but might do some club APRs or TTs. I have around 11k miles riding experience in 2.5 years, currently doing around 600mi/36hrs per month. The only goal I have at the moment is to be able to complete a rolling 20 mile circuit I do regularly in under 1 hour, but I just want to become a stronger cyclist all round and get dropped less often!

The last couple of days, I have tried a couple of sessions of 5 x 5/1 Z4 HR out on the road and did one 2 x 20 Z4 HR this morning. I think I need to do a lot more Z4/Z5 work as I've not really being pushing myself hard enough since I've stopped riding the turbo regularly.

While I think these routines will do me some good, are there any other good workouts you can suggest? Should I throw some hill repeats into the mix, if so how long does a climb need to be and how many repeats? Do I need more structure to my training than just firing into some intervals during the week?

On a good week I will do around 10 hours of riding, which includes 3 club rides or varying intensity (1.5, 2.5 and 3.5hrs). Should I ditch some of these rides and do my own thing? Do I need to up the time and intensity to see any gains? (Looking at Trimp stress graphs on GC - I seem to be plateauing out on long term stress metrics).

Any help or advice appreciated.

it's not really a question of 'just' what intervals to do: it's the whole make up of your training that's important (and gearing it towards your goals).

ric

bobones

Chebrikov wrote:

Try clearing your mind of Trimp stress graphs on GC and plateauing out on long term stress metrics and refuse to ever be dropped again.

If only it were so simple! I'm not obsessing on stress metrics: merely observing and wondering if long term stress is a good indicator of fitness. For example, here's a graph of my last 12 months. There is an upward trend on LTS until just before Christmas when I eased off a fair bit. It then picks up again until my crash in mid April. Am I right in thinking I should be trying to get the blue line up to 120-140 to see some significant performance improvements from last year?

Chebrikov wrote:

You are doing 3 decent rides a week so you should be improving, I would not like to see someone drop club rides, so why not incorporate intervals into the club rides? Go on the front and do some 5 minute turns.

I suppose I am still improving: just not as quickly as I would like or as quickly as some of the more experienced guys I go out with.

Chebrikov wrote:

What are you doing to measure performance?

I don't have a power meter but I was using "virtual power" when on the turbo. I would say FTP improved around 10% between October and March, but now the turbo is not getting used I'm basing performance on times on hills and loops I do regularly, how I'm doing compared to guys I ride with regularly (where and when I get dropped!) or just based on feel/

Chebrikov wrote:

How hard are you finding the club rides, do you recover well from one before the next? How are the rides spaced over the week?

The rides I do are Wednesday (easy beginners 24mi @ 15-17mph), Saturday (B group steady, 59mi @ 18-22mph) and Sunday (steady/social 35-40mi @ 16-17mph with cafe stop).

I usually find the Saturday ride fairly hard and am hanging on for grim death at some points. I usually get dropped when the stronger riders put in a kick up a climb or sprint near the end of the ride. If the wind is strong I may get dropped fairly early in the ride.

I quite often have sore quads for the Sunday ride where the pace varies a lot but is still a decent workout.

The Wednesday ride is a recovery/social ride with juniors and new riders which is fairly relaxed but there are still some opportunities for a couple of decent efforts up climbs or in sprints.

I generally do nothing on Mondays, and I feel fine by Tuesday. Other guys in the club are doing midweek chain-gangs at 25mph, which is way beyond my capabilities, but I could start doing a local midweek 10 mile TT for something to measure performance by and set some goals?

This week, where I've tried to up my game a bit, I did a couple of 5/1 Z4 interval sessions on Tuesday. Wednesday morning I did 2x20 Z4 and then the easy evening ride. I felt a bit tired yesterday and didn't go out (although I'd usually do an hour in the morning), and this morning I did another 2x20 Z4. So, so far this week I've done 96 miles/ 4000ft and about 5.5 hours riding and I'll probably do another 80-90 miles at the weekend.

I think I've been pussy-footing around in Z2/Z3 too much since the turbo went away so I'm trying to do more Z4 stuff during the week. I also think I need fit hill repeats into my routine, some sprint work and maybe some tabatas on the turbo?

Chebrikov wrote:

You might benefit from setting a more specific goal or goals.

Main goal is to do the Saturday ride without getting dropped and I want to be able to compete 20-30mi circular solo rides at 20mph+, but yeah something more specific with dates attached would be a good idea.

bobones

Ric/RSTSport wrote:

it's not really a question of 'just' what intervals to do: it's the whole make up of your training that's important (and gearing it towards your goals).

ric

Indeed, but as a 48 year old recreational/non-racing newish rider, I don't think a coach or professional training plan would be appropriate for me; however, I want to improve and make good use of my time on the bike, which is why I am asking for advice on this forum on how I should structure my training and the type of rides/routines I should do.

ric/rstsport

to clarify, i didn't suggest you should have coaching, i was just saying it's not just about the intervals.

on the other hand there's absolutely no reason why a recreational rider wanting to improve fitness shouldn't have a plan or coaching. there's millions of people who go to gyms (etc) to become 'fitter' without any competitive element and who make use of a coach or personal trainer (presumably to speed up the process of getting fitter).

good use of your time comes from effective training, which should be targetted to the goals you have (whatever they may be).

ric

Chebrikov

Virtual power data is virtually useless.

bobones

Chebrikov wrote:

Virtual power data is virtually useless.

It's not if you're only using it to measure your own performance over time on a stable setup. But that's a different discussion.

Chebrikov

bobones wrote:

Chebrikov wrote:

Virtual power data is virtually useless.

It's not if you're only using it to measure your own performance over time on a stable setup. But that's a different discussion.

Depends on the setup and the type of trainer.

bobones

Seems I've wasted my time looking for advice here.

jgsi

bobones wrote:

Seems I've wasted my time looking for advice here.

I think the point was made about there not being any 'magic' intervals. It just doesnt work out that way .
I just do intervals on the turbo probably based on how I feel and what Sufferfest I fancy doing on Trainer Road.
As you want to improve on road performance then I would seriously advise you find a competent chain gang and stick a club ten in as well each week. I am not a tester but if the sun shines then, no excuse, I drag myself out for an evening's hard slog either at Crewe or Whitchurch.

GiantMike

If I were you I'd do the following sessions:

2 or 3x20mins at FTP (or as close to it as you can simulate on the road), some recovery between

4x5mins at 110% FTP with some recovery between. Basically, go as hard as you can for 30 secs, then sit at FTP for 4 mins, then go as hard as you can for the last 30 seconds.

I do these.

ric/rstsport

there's no magic intervals. but there are intervals that are designed to do specific jobs (e.g. improve MAP). However, 'just' doing the intervals, or not caring about how the rest of a programme fits together is where things can fall down. it's how the whole package fits together, it's about
consistency
duration
volume
intensity
rest

people also react differently to the same session for a variety of reasons. so, your psychological state can have an effect (e.g., you could get really bored doing structured workouts = you not doing them), or some people respond better or worse to certain sessions (e.g. i know someone who has very similar stats to me but responds better to lots of FTP work, whereas i respond better to shorter, harder intervals).

a good coach can help sort these issues out
ric

bobones

I wasn't looking for 'magic' intervals: just some ideas and tips. I like the sound of those, GiantMike, thanks. And Ric, I know you're right and I'm trying to formulate some kind of plan that will give my training some structure.

Chebrikov

bobones wrote:

Seems I've wasted my time looking for advice here.

Sorry, keep it simple, do not get all hung up on the numbers if you are unable to measure them accurately. Keep track of performance, but keep it simple and don't try to set records every session. If on the road it may not be easy to do 20 minute efforts, you could try some 15 minute efforts.

No probs with a well set up trainer for good reliable measurement of progress but outside, if you do not have a real power meter, the numbers will be a waste of time, you may as well track progress up hills.