Breathing Techniques?

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  • briantrumpet
    briantrumpet Posts: 21,007
    dmclite-3.0 wrote:
    The coach tony williams has an interesting fact sheet on this subject. have a look at Flamme rouge website. lots of other stuff on there of value, he knows his stuff.
    Maybe he does, but he needs to discover that "breathe" has an e at the end.

    Incidentally, his mention of pro cyclists' "beer belly" actually being the result of deep breathing reminds me of photos of Mark Cavendish such as this:

    bettiniphoto_0058405_1_full_600.jpg
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  • dmclite-3.0
    dmclite-3.0 Posts: 845
    briantrumpet wrote:
    dmclite-3.0 wrote:
    The coach tony williams has an interesting fact sheet on this subject. have a look at Flamme rouge website. lots of other stuff on there of value, he knows his stuff.
    Maybe he does, but he needs to discover that "breathe" has an e at the end.

    Incidentally, his mention of pro cyclists' "beer belly" actually being the result of deep breathing reminds me of photos of Mark Cavendish such as this:

    bettiniphoto_0058405_1_full_600.jpg

    Well, a slight oversight needs a pedant like yourself to highlight that small error. Well done and a worthy contribution to this small discussion.
    I don't mean to brag, I don't mean to boast, but I'm intercontinental when I eat French toast...
  • jonny_trousers
    jonny_trousers Posts: 3,588
    SoloSuperia wrote:
    my contention would be if you are thinking about breathing you aint try hard enough!!!!!!

    Hmm, so thinking about areas of riding that could be worked on in order to improve technique means you're not trying hard enough? Oh-kay..
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    Jonny_Trousers wrote:
    SoloSuperia wrote:
    my contention would be if you are thinking about breathing you aint try hard enough!!!!!!

    Hmm, so thinking about areas of riding that could be worked on in order to improve technique means you're not trying hard enough? Oh-kay..

    That's the problem though - I'm not sure there's any evidence that 'improving breathing technique' is the same as 'improving performance'. Happy to be proved wrong though...
  • MountainMonster
    MountainMonster Posts: 7,423
    While this video below has quite a few other points as well, check out the points made in tip number 1. I work off of this tip when cycling, and I certainly feel more comfortable and perceived effort is less.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVvr2ihAfAk
    My London Road
  • jonny_trousers
    jonny_trousers Posts: 3,588
    MountainMonster wrote:
    While this video below has quite a few other points as well, check out the points made in tip number 1. I work off of this tip when cycling, and I certainly feel more comfortable and perceived effort is less.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVvr2ihAfAk

    Thanks! That's exactly the kind of thing I was after. I found point 2 really interesting too.
  • jonny_trousers
    jonny_trousers Posts: 3,588
    dmclite-3.0 wrote:
    The coach tony williams has an interesting fact sheet on this subject. have a look at Flamme rouge website. lots of other stuff on there of value, he knows his stuff.

    Cheers! Will look into it!
  • briantrumpet
    briantrumpet Posts: 21,007
    dmclite-3.0 wrote:
    Well, a slight oversight needs a pedant like yourself to highlight that small error. Well done and a worthy contribution to this small discussion.
    Thanks.
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  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    MountainMonster wrote:
    While this video below has quite a few other points as well, check out the points made in tip number 1. I work off of this tip when cycling, and I certainly feel more comfortable and perceived effort is less.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVvr2ihAfAk

    FFS :lol:
  • jonny_trousers
    jonny_trousers Posts: 3,588
    Imposter wrote:
    Jonny_Trousers wrote:
    SoloSuperia wrote:
    my contention would be if you are thinking about breathing you aint try hard enough!!!!!!

    Hmm, so thinking about areas of riding that could be worked on in order to improve technique means you're not trying hard enough? Oh-kay..

    That's the problem though - I'm not sure there's any evidence that 'improving breathing technique' is the same as 'improving performance'. Happy to be proved wrong though...

    Is there evidence to suggest it does not? If so, I'd be really interested to read that also. Thanks for your input.
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    Jonny_Trousers wrote:
    Imposter wrote:
    Jonny_Trousers wrote:
    SoloSuperia wrote:
    my contention would be if you are thinking about breathing you aint try hard enough!!!!!!

    Hmm, so thinking about areas of riding that could be worked on in order to improve technique means you're not trying hard enough? Oh-kay..

    That's the problem though - I'm not sure there's any evidence that 'improving breathing technique' is the same as 'improving performance'. Happy to be proved wrong though...

    Is there evidence to suggest it does not? If so, I'd be really interested to read that also. Thanks for your input.

    There's probably no evidence either way, I suspect. But if you want to pursue a training/improvement regime based on nothing more than anecdote and internet speculation, then you go for it. :lol:
  • jonny_trousers
    jonny_trousers Posts: 3,588
    Imposter wrote:
    Jonny_Trousers wrote:
    Imposter wrote:
    Jonny_Trousers wrote:
    SoloSuperia wrote:
    my contention would be if you are thinking about breathing you aint try hard enough!!!!!!

    Hmm, so thinking about areas of riding that could be worked on in order to improve technique means you're not trying hard enough? Oh-kay..

    That's the problem though - I'm not sure there's any evidence that 'improving breathing technique' is the same as 'improving performance'. Happy to be proved wrong though...

    Is there evidence to suggest it does not? If so, I'd be really interested to read that also. Thanks for your input.

    There's probably no evidence either way, I suspect. But if you want to pursue a training/improvement regime based on nothing more than anecdote and internet speculation, then you go for it. :lol:

    I don't particularly, which is why I asked if there were any resources out there. Surely it would have been far simpler for you to say, you don't think there are, or you suspect the experienced opinion is, it doesn't make much of a difference, but then that wouldn't have given you the chance to sneer, I guess. :lol:
  • briantrumpet
    briantrumpet Posts: 21,007
    Imposter wrote:
    There's probably no evidence either way, I suspect. But if you want to pursue a training/improvement regime based on nothing more than anecdote and internet speculation, then you go for it. :lol:
    Or, put another way: "There's probably no evidence either way, I suspect. But if you want to ignore the possibility that a technique that costs nothing, and requires only practice and which might bring performance benefits, that's your choice."

    And before you bring up the subject of pedal technique, in that case there is a reasonable amount of evidence that it doesn't bring performance gains. There isn't the same ammunition here - indeed, the only scientific study (which I quoted) notes the "improvement of blood gases" for deep diaphragmatic breathing. It's only a tangential hint that there might be something in it, I'll grant you, but it certainly doesn't disprove the notion that altering breathing technique can change what's in your blood.
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  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    briantrumpet wrote:
    Imposter wrote:
    There's probably no evidence either way, I suspect. But if you want to pursue a training/improvement regime based on nothing more than anecdote and internet speculation, then you go for it. :lol:
    Or, put another way: "There's probably no evidence either way, I suspect. But if you want to ignore the possibility that a technique that costs nothing, and requires only practice and which might bring performance benefits, that's your choice."

    And before you bring up the subject of pedal technique, in that case there is a reasonable amount of evidence that it doesn't bring performance gains. There isn't the same ammunition here - indeed, the only scientific study (which I quoted) notes the "improvement of blood gases" for deep diaphragmatic breathing. It's only a tangential hint that there might be something in it, I'll grant you, but it certainly doesn't disprove the notion that altering breathing technique can change what's in your blood.

    ok - so the reason I should try it is because 'there is no evidence that it doesn't work'..?? How are you on religion by the way ? ;)
  • briantrumpet
    briantrumpet Posts: 21,007
    Imposter wrote:
    ok - so the reason I should try it is because 'there is no evidence that it doesn't work'..?? How are you on religion by the way ? ;)
    I haven't seen any scientific evidence that religion has any basis in reality, or in my personal experience. Let's start lobbing 'evidence grenades' over the net, for amusement. At least I've quoted one scientific study which is leaning towards supporting the notion that how we breathe can affect the composition of our blood. Would you care to lob one back over which says how we breathe doesn't make any difference? At least we'd have a little more than speculation there.

    In any case, most scientific breakthroughs come from someone speculating, and then following through with research. If all Richard Feynman had done was shrug and say "it's just speculation and anecdote ... I'll not bother" when he thought he had observed something interesting, the world would be a less enlightened place.

    I'm not in a position to do scientific study of breathing techniques, but I'm not going to dismiss it out of hand just because we haven't yet investigated it properly.
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  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    briantrumpet wrote:
    At least I've quoted one scientific study which is leaning towards supporting the notion that how we breathe can affect the composition of our blood.

    Are you referring to the study you quoted earlier, which looked at patients with 'severe chronic obstructive pulmonary disease' ?? I'm guessing that's not going to be in any way relevant.

    One which uses healthy, trained cyclists as the control/intervention groups would be good though...
  • briantrumpet
    briantrumpet Posts: 21,007
    Imposter wrote:
    Are you referring to the study you quoted earlier, which looked at patients with 'severe chronic obstructive pulmonary disease' ?? I'm guessing that's not going to be in any way relevant.

    One which uses healthy, trained cyclists as the control/intervention groups would be good though...
    Absolutely - as you say, that sort of study would be good. But it seems that there is nothing out there, yet.

    But many breakthroughs have come out of research which has been looking at something that might have seemed irrelevant at first, but which has merely hinted at something tangentially. Richard Feynman was always forthright at the outset about the weaknesses of any of his research (as I was too in quoting the study mentioned). But that doesn't disprove that there might be a hint in there. It's healthy to be sceptical - but I'm not sure why you're so resistant in this case. If one lives one's life unwilling to follow hunches based on the probabilities as one perceives them (my hunch is that religious faith is all a load of baloney, based on scientific evidence and personal experience, but I'll admit I can't prove it's baloney), then it's going to be a pretty limited existence.

    As I say, at the moment, on balance of probability, weighing up internet/anecdote, personal experience, and the only (possibly irrelevant) scientific study I've seen, I'd veer towards saying that breathing technique might make a difference to blood composition and thus performance. As you said, I'd be happy to be proved wrong. Your being sceptical isn't a proof that my admitted hunch is wrong.

    Anyway, I breathe like that out of habit, so it would be more effort for me to change to small pants.
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  • MartinB2444
    MartinB2444 Posts: 266
    MountainMonster wrote:
    While this video below has quite a few other points as well, check out the points made in tip number 1. I work off of this tip when cycling, and I certainly feel more comfortable and perceived effort is less.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVvr2ihAfAk

    He isn't doing a forced exhalation he's doing a resisted one (by pursing his lips). This actually slows down expiration. People with severe emphysema learn to do this naturally, it increases the partial pressure of oxygen in the alveoli. I'm not at all convinced it's of any relevance to cycling.

    I do try to use diaphragmatic breathing when going up hill in the same way as I try to relax hands, shoulders and anything else not directed towards pushing up hill. If the intercostals don't need to come into play then leave them be. When things go into the red and I need all the help I can get to breathe then God or 10 million years of evolution gave me an extra set of muscles and I'm not going to pass on using them!
  • jonny_trousers
    jonny_trousers Posts: 3,588
    MartinB2444 wrote:
    MountainMonster wrote:
    While this video below has quite a few other points as well, check out the points made in tip number 1. I work off of this tip when cycling, and I certainly feel more comfortable and perceived effort is less.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVvr2ihAfAk

    He isn't doing a forced exhalation he's doing a resisted one (by pursing his lips). This actually slows down expiration. People with severe emphysema learn to do this naturally, it increases the partial pressure of oxygen in the alveoli. I'm not at all convinced it's of any relevance to cycling.

    I do try to use diaphragmatic breathing when going up hill in the same way as I try to relax hands, shoulders and anything else not directed towards pushing up hill. If the intercostals don't need to come into play then leave them be. When things go into the red and I need all the help I can get to breathe then God or 10 million years of evolution gave me an extra set of muscles and I'm not going to pass on using them!

    You're right, but I suspect he's more doing that to exaggerate, with sound, the idea of a powerful exhale than advocating causing any restriction. You get it when teaching breathing techniques to young musicians: they suddenly think that by making a noise while taking a big breath it means they are drawing in more air.

    I tried the force exhale thing yesterday while doing intervals and although I have no idea if it aided recovery, it felt pretty good.
  • bushu
    bushu Posts: 711
    lung capacity and strength does impact my riding, dont know about breathing technique as such but obviously if i push harder the muscles the push that system would work harder and develop more power to inhale & exhale

    recently bought a power breathe mainly due to my smoking & sinus problems, barely used it but can feel that it works my lungs hard, whether it will translate into developing stronger lungs with the riding too I'm yet to see. i believe my lung capacity should increase, in thinking that you can only get fitter by pushing yourself over your current limits
    1# Retro Road Revamp & 2# Charge Plug fixed & 3# XC Scott Scale50
  • city_boy
    city_boy Posts: 1,616
    Jonny_Trousers wrote:
    I don't particularly, which is why I asked if there were any resources out there. Surely it would have been far simpler for you to say, you don't think there are, or you suspect the experienced opinion is, it doesn't make much of a difference, but then that wouldn't have given you the chance to sneer, I guess. :lol:

    I have no experience of any of these myself but might be worth a look if you looking for something to improve you breathing. I'm sure someone will have experience or an opinion on them.....?

    http://www.powerbreathe.com/

    http://www.ultrabreathe.com/

    http://www.powerlung.com/
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