Breathing Techniques?

jonny_trousers

Anyone know of any worthwhile breathing technique articles out there? I've watched a little Obrey video that was very interestiong, but I just wondered what else there might be.











How long before someone says, "I find breathing in and then out again works best"?

navrig

Get a new pair of headphones

A blonde gets her haircut while wearing a pair of headphones. The hairdresser asks her to take them off, but she protests that she'll die without them.

The hairdresser sighs, and starts cutting the hair around the headphones. Soon, the blonde falls asleep, and the hairdresser removes the headphones. A few minutes later, the blonde collapses, dead on the floor. Alarmed, the hairdresser puts the headphones to his ear and hears, "Breathe in. Breathe out."

goonz

Breathing techniques you say?

I don't know about technique but breathing very hard with some coughing and spluttering in there too works for me.

MountainMonster

On long climbs back in Austria (400m+) I would always force myself to think about my technique for breathing as I needed to control my heart rate in the beginning. I found that a smooth rhythm to the one-one thousand...... tune worked well.

imposter2.0

Breathing is controlled by your autonomic nervous system. It knows what it's doing - so let it do its job - while you worry about something else more important.

briantrumpet

Google "diaphragmatic breathing" and you'll get a good crop of advice - the basic thing being that using the bottom of your lungs will get more oxygen into the bloodstream, I think. It's certainly the best way to get lots of air in your lungs quickly, which is why it's so important for wind instrument players.

Imposter wrote:

Breathing is controlled by your autonomic nervous system. It knows what it's doing - so let it do its job - while you worry about something else more important.

It actually can take years to master good breathing for musicians. When we're asking our bodies to do extraordinary things, our bodies don't always know best.

mrdsgs

in and out works for me!

imposter2.0

briantrumpet wrote:

Google "diaphragmatic breathing" and you'll get a good crop of advice - the basic thing being that using the bottom of your lungs will get more oxygen into the bloodstream, I think. It's certainly the best way to get lots of air in your lungs quickly, which is why it's so important for wind instrument players.

Imposter wrote:

Breathing is controlled by your autonomic nervous system. It knows what it's doing - so let it do its job - while you worry about something else more important.

It actually can take years to master good breathing for musicians. When we're asking our bodies to do extraordinary things, our bodies don't always know best.

If you play a trumpet (which I'm guessing you do, from your username/avatar) then I'm sure that's correct. A musician's breathing has to fit in with whatever piece he is playing. No such restrictions on cycling though. Cycling whilst playing a wind instrument may require some useful breathing (and bike handling) skills though, I agree...

briantrumpet

Imposter wrote:

If you play a trumpet (which I'm guessing you do, from your username/avatar) then I'm sure that's correct. A musician's breathing has to fit in with whatever piece he is playing. No such restrictions on cycling though.

It's more complicated than that - not only do we need to get enough breath in at appropriate places, but we're also asking our bodies to survive on what might be less than ideal amounts of oxygen. Therefore making sure we expel the carbon dioxide efficiently from the lungs and taking in plenty of fresh air is important physically as well as musically.

It's curious why diaphragmatic breathing is natural when one's lying down, but not when we're upright. IF it's true that diaphragmatic breathing gets more oxygen into the bloodstream, mightn't that be helpful for cyclists too, and worth learning how to do?

imposter2.0

The technique is probably useful in casual riding perhaps (ironically when it is needed the least, I would expect). Not so useful when the bunch is strung out at 35mph and you are breathing through your ar5e anyway. Breathing technique is probably not high on the list of priorities at times like that.

MountainMonster

I am failing to see your argument here Imposter. Good, strong breaths can make a huge difference no matter what level you are at. If you become more efficient in breathing this will have knock-on implications for your riding.

Remember that oxygen is partly fueling the muscles, and without knowing how to properly breath under load you could run into problems.

hatch87

briantrumpet wrote:

Imposter wrote:

If you play a trumpet (which I'm guessing you do, from your username/avatar) then I'm sure that's correct. A musician's breathing has to fit in with whatever piece he is playing. No such restrictions on cycling though.

It's more complicated than that - not only do we need to get enough breath in at appropriate places, but we're also asking our bodies to survive on what might be less than ideal amounts of oxygen. Therefore making sure we expel the carbon dioxide efficiently from the lungs and taking in plenty of fresh air is important physically as well as musically.

It's curious why diaphragmatic breathing is natural when one's lying down, but not when we're upright. IF it's true that diaphragmatic breathing gets more oxygen into the bloodstream, mightn't that be helpful for cyclists too, and worth learning how to do?

Yes and no, whilst playing a long note you can't start breathing quickly, your speed of breathing is dictated by the music you are playing. Whilst cycling it doesn't matter weather you take big long breaths, or quick short ones. As previously mentioned, your body knows what its doing. Whilst playing a wind instrument you need to take over what comes naturally which is why it takes such a long time to learn. A sport like swimming would benefit a lot more.

As breathing is reactive, the only thing you could do is start breathing harder in anticipation of a harder push rather than it trying to catch up when the tempo first changes.

I've tried taking longer deep breaths vs my natural quick shallow breaths and found no difference to my heart rate or my performance.

imposter2.0

MountainMonster wrote:

I am failing to see your argument here Imposter. Good, strong breaths can make a huge difference no matter what level you are at. If you become more efficient in breathing this will have knock-on implications for your riding.

The kind of breathing which comes naturally during hard exercise, you mean ??

MountainMonster wrote:

Remember that oxygen is partly fueling the muscles, and without knowing how to properly breath under load you could run into problems.

How do you properly 'breathe under load' then ? And why has the human body not developed this capability itself ?

briantrumpet

Imposter wrote:

The technique is probably useful in casual riding perhaps (ironically when it is needed the least, I would expect). Not so useful when the bunch is strung out at 35mph and you are breathing through your ar5e anyway. Breathing technique is probably not high on the list of priorities at times like that.

A quick Google throws up a few admittedly unscientific articles:

http://cyclingfitness.hubpages.com/hub/ ... en-Cycling

http://www.active.com/cycling/Articles/ ... gen_uptake

http://swimming.about.com/od/swimworkou ... athing.htm

Given that in another thread we're exhorting folk to focus on power, not strength, and that that power comes from getting oxygen into the system, I'd have thought that it might be worth wondering if getting more oxygen into the system should be higher up the list of priorities.

ddraver

I find that if I'm struggling then I tend to "snatch" at breaths a bit. If I think about it and make myself take deep breaths (ie in for two pedal strokes, out for 2 or similar. or paces if I'm running) then I find it helps.

How much of that is to do with "oxygenation", just getting a proper lungful of air or just a sort of "centering of myself" (but a lot less wanky) I'm not sure. I did read Obree's book, and i ve tried the breathing thing but to be honest I did nt notice much difference, it just makes you take proper deep breaths is all.

imposter2.0

Brian - have you learned nothing from the numerous/ad nauseam 'leg strength' threads ?? Posting links to other people's opinions is not the way forward.

briantrumpet

Imposter wrote:

Brian - have you learned nothing from the numerous/ad nauseam 'leg strength' threads ?? Posting links to other people's opinions is not the way forward.

I fear all we might have on this thread is opinions and anecdote, in the absence of proper studies.

EDIT - the only scientific study I could find is, er, maybe not entirely relevant, though I'll leave you to decide: "We conclude that in severe chronic obstructive pulmonary disease patients with chronic hypercapnia, deep diaphragmatic breathing is associated with improvement of blood gases at the expense of a greater inspiratory muscle loading." Eur Respir J 1998; 11: 408–415.

hatch87

briantrumpet wrote:

Imposter wrote:

Brian - have you learned nothing from the numerous/ad nauseam 'leg strength' threads ?? Posting links to other people's opinions is not the way forward.

I fear all we might have on this thread is opinions and anecdote, in the absence of proper studies.

Indeed, All you can do it try it yourself and see what the results are. I found 0 difference when taking deep breaths, others may be different. At the end of the day, if your HR is below 90% then you must be getting enough oxygen to your muscles to perform, if your not then your heart will beat faster to compensate sending round blood vessels no quite full of oxygen which is when the lactic acid builds. Sprints are the only time this should be happening which is when a better breathing technique would most likely be required. But for any endurance ride, it won't make much difference.

MountainMonster

Imposter wrote:

MountainMonster wrote:

I am failing to see your argument here Imposter. Good, strong breaths can make a huge difference no matter what level you are at. If you become more efficient in breathing this will have knock-on implications for your riding.

The kind of breathing which comes naturally during hard exercise, you mean ??

MountainMonster wrote:

Remember that oxygen is partly fueling the muscles, and without knowing how to properly breath under load you could run into problems.

How do you properly 'breathe under load' then ? And why has the human body not developed this capability itself ?

Breathing like crazy while focusing on other things is one thing, and yes that is natural, but if you learn to control your breathing you are much more efficient, IMO at least.

If I focus on breathing in a rhythm and getting good quality breaths, not just gasping for air and taking everything I can, I feel much more comfortable and go a bit faster. Control is everything. The human body does this to some extent, but it still tricks itself into thinking that gasping for air is good enough, when a bit of control enhances this.

imposter2.0

hmm, I don't focus on breathing in a rythym and yet I don't 'gasp for air' either. Maybe I'm just normal.

briantrumpet

Imposter wrote:

Maybe I'm just normal.

Just opinion.

edhornby

as a musician and a breathhold diver and a cyclist here are some other points to chuck into the mix....

only about a quarter of the oxygen drawn into the lungs can be transferred across the alveoli wall,

when you inhale the pulse slightly rises and slightly falls on an exhale - I believe this also has an impact on the longer exhale technique that Obree talks about

the human body can deal with a LOT of CO2 in the system without impacting the O2 levels

Diaphragm control can inhale / expel air a lot better than ribcage (intercostal muscles) but given the above points it may not be the key limiting factor....

Ideally we should test the different breath techniques - this could be done quite easily with a turbo and a powertap hub, a HRM and one of those finger clip oximeters that tracks the O2 levels... I don't have access to this kit otherwise I'd have already done it !

jonny_trousers

Thanks for the thoughts, all. Nice to see the comedians among us didn't let me down

I'm more than happy to accept that allowing the body to do what it does naturally is the answer. I just wondered if there were different techniques that could help.

When I've tried the Obree method I've actually found it quite uncomfortable, but then adapting it, and forcing myself to exhale hard every so often on longish climbs, in order to 'empty' the lungs, feels fine, and I wondered if it might be of some benefit (the whole expelling stale air thing).

I've noticed that I do have the capacity to expel and draw in greater quantities of air if I force myself to, but I have no idea if it's a technique worth working on.

Cheers!

MountainMonster

Imposter wrote:

hmm, I don't focus on breathing in a rythym and yet I don't 'gasp for air' either. Maybe I'm just normal.

Your not pushing yourself hard enough then if you are not having to gasp for air at all

thegreatdivide

I played the trumpet/cornet for a lot of my youth and although the embouchure left the building many years ago I still breath from my diaphragm pretty much all of the time – resting or cycling.

jonny_trousers

PS. it might entertain you to know that I am a professional musician who plays a brass instrument for a living. I have just as crappy breathing technique when I'm playing as I do when I'm riding

briantrumpet

thegreatdivide wrote:

I played the trumpet/cornet for a lot of my youth and although the embouchure left the building many years ago I still breath from my diaphragm pretty much all of the time – resting or cycling.

Jonny_Trousers wrote:

PS. it might entertain you to know that I am a professional musician who plays a brass instrument for a living. I have just as crappy breathing technique when I'm playing as I do when I'm riding

Between the three of us we could have quite a novelty act.

goonz

In through one nostril and out the other, try that.

slowbike

Jonny_Trousers wrote:

I've noticed that I do have the capacity to expel and draw in greater quantities of air if I force myself to, but I have no idea if it's a technique worth working on.

As a brass player you should already be used to controlling your breathing and using the lower half of your lungs.
I have no idea if it is more beneficial whilst cycling as I tend to do it all the time anyway (saxophonist & ex chorister)
I do find concentrating on breathing when climbing at threshold useful - it calms everything down (a bit) and allows me to get into a rhythm - and from there you can attack harder if you've got the energy/strength/willpower ...

There does come a gradient where I just can't slow my breathing any further - but I still try and get a full lungful of air - anything else is just wasted energy.

dmclite-3.0

The coach tony williams has an interesting fact sheet on this subject. have a look at Flamme rouge website. lots of other stuff on there of value, he knows his stuff.

solosuperia

Have I missed something here?
It is something I have never thought about, breathing that is.
All can think about is the pain in my legs.
Just remembered when riding on the track, did try and flood my lungs with oxygen by breathing deeply before the anaerobic explosion(bloody hell that is over-egging it!) was needed.
That was based on nothing other than it seemed a good idea at the time.
It happens naturally doesn't it, my contention would be if you are thinking about breathing you aint try hard enough!!!!!!