squats and leg-presses?

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  • Russp
    Russp Posts: 8
    So regular cycling will make your legs stronger, but the extra strength actually has no benefit to your cycling? :?
  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    Russp wrote:
    So regular cycling will make your legs stronger, but the extra strength actually has no benefit to your cycling? :?

    I like the way you think. :lol:
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    Russp wrote:
    So regular cycling will make your legs stronger, but the extra strength actually has no benefit to your cycling? :?

    Nailed it with your very first post. Good work. Except for the strength bit - that's irrelevant (nobody said cycling makes your legs stronger). On the upside though, Dennis likes the way you think.. :lol:
  • city_boy
    city_boy Posts: 1,616
    Imposter wrote:
    Nailed it with your very first post. Good work. Except for the strength bit - that's irrelevant (nobody said cycling makes your legs stronger). :lol:

    I get your argument that training for leg strength (ie, increasing 1 rep max strength) is of no use to cycling performance, but just out of interest, are you of the view that any type of resistance/weight training can have no benefit whatsoever on any area of cycling performance?

    Edit - for clarity I'm referring to performance in the type of cycling that most of us do rather that track sprinting.
    Statistically, 6 out of 7 dwarves are not happy.
  • Russp
    Russp Posts: 8
    Imposter wrote:
    Russp wrote:
    So regular cycling will make your legs stronger, but the extra strength actually has no benefit to your cycling? :?

    Nailed it with your very first post. Good work. Except for the strength bit - that's irrelevant (nobody said cycling makes your legs stronger). On the upside though, Dennis likes the way you think.. :lol:


    Lol...

    If muscle size directly relates to strength then cycling has definitely made my legs stronger. Although still not very impressive my quads have increased significantly in the short time I have been cycling. The majority of the pro peloton seem to have pretty impressive quads (except for some). I'm sure that's not just for vanity...

    Thinking about it, maybe I should spend less time looking at other blokes legs. :)
  • MountainMonster
    MountainMonster Posts: 7,423
    In mountain biking upper body strength is very important for enjoyable rides, and for railing trails quicker, and you need some damn strong legs to keep the bike moving uphill on certain trails with roots, and almost every pro racer trains with weights. I'd imagine the leg bit is very beneficial to the roadie as well!
    My London Road
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    City Boy wrote:

    I get your argument that training for leg strength (ie, increasing 1 rep max strength) is of no use to cycling performance, but just out of interest, are you of the view that any type of resistance/weight training can have no benefit whatsoever on any area of cycling performance?

    Edit - for clarity I'm referring to performance in the type of cycling that most of us do rather that track sprinting.

    In terms of performance, I don't believe there is any evidence to suggest that it does. For general well-being, conditioning, correction of imbalances, injury prevention, rehab, etc - that's a different issue.
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    MountainMonster wrote:
    In mountain biking upper body strength is very important for enjoyable rides, and for railing trails quicker, and you need some damn strong legs to keep the bike moving uphill on certain trails with roots, and almost every pro racer trains with weights. I'd imagine the leg bit is very beneficial to the roadie as well!

    :lol:
  • MountainMonster
    MountainMonster Posts: 7,423
    Imposter wrote:
    MountainMonster wrote:
    In mountain biking upper body strength is very important for enjoyable rides, and for railing trails quicker, and you need some damn strong legs to keep the bike moving uphill on certain trails with roots, and almost every pro racer trains with weights. I'd imagine the leg bit is very beneficial to the roadie as well!

    :lol:

    Ooh here we go again, nothing other than just riding your bike can help riding your bike. Yippee
    My London Road
  • TimInno
    TimInno Posts: 46
    Imposter wrote:
    TimInno wrote:
    In the past six months I've been doing squats with weights (nothing huge) and one legged squats. My endurance has never been a major issue, but I struggled with climbs and I wanted to improve my average speed on the flats. The exercises have helped a lot...definitely worth it!

    How do you know the improved fitness (for that is what it is) has not come from riding your bike ??

    It may well have done...I don't know...I was merely offering my own personal experience (and assumptions), none of which is based on extensive tightly controlled experiments :) I'd still recommend it though, combined with time in the saddle.
  • city_boy
    city_boy Posts: 1,616
    Imposter wrote:
    City Boy wrote:

    I get your argument that training for leg strength (ie, increasing 1 rep max strength) is of no use to cycling performance, but just out of interest, are you of the view that any type of resistance/weight training can have no benefit whatsoever on any area of cycling performance?

    Edit - for clarity I'm referring to performance in the type of cycling that most of us do rather that track sprinting.

    In terms of performance, I don't believe there is any evidence to suggest that it does. For general well-being, conditioning, correction of imbalances, injury prevention, rehab, etc - that's a different issue.

    Fair play fella. Again I'm with you on the injury prevention and rehab, but I'm surprised that you don't translate conditioning and correction of imbalances (and other benefits of resistance training - muscle endurance, improved lactate tolerance etc.) into improved performance. But as we've said, we all see things differently.
    Statistically, 6 out of 7 dwarves are not happy.
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    City Boy wrote:
    Fair play fella. Again I'm with you on the injury prevention and rehab, but I'm surprised that you don't translate conditioning and correction of imbalances (and other benefits of resistance training - muscle endurance, improved lactate tolerance etc.) into improved performance. But as we've said, we all see things differently.

    You could put it like that - there may be some side benefits, as you say. 'Muscle endurance' brings us right back to the 'aerobic' issue though. In that sense, all I (and others far more qualified than me) argue is that advocating strength work for cycling is a bit of a misconception, because endurance cycling is not limited by leg strength.
  • city_boy
    city_boy Posts: 1,616
    Imposter wrote:
    You could put it like that - there may be some side benefits, as you say. 'Muscle endurance' brings us right back to the 'aerobic' issue though. In that sense, all I (and others far more qualified than me) argue is that advocating strength work for cycling is a bit of a misconception, because endurance cycling is not limited by leg strength.

    Maybe we've found a little bit of common ground :)

    Training with weights/resistance can take very many forms with many different outcomes other than 'strength', but as we've also said, the word 'strength' is used generically to, perhaps somewhat inaccurately, describe some of these other outcomes. Outcomes which can translate to benefits in many other sports including cycling.
    Statistically, 6 out of 7 dwarves are not happy.
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    If you think that's common ground, then I'm happy ;)

    My only contention here was (and is) that hitting the gym to increase leg strength for the purpose of endurance cycling is not needed. Unless you have a diagnosed weakness or are sedentary and coming from a base of zero fitness - in which case almost any exercise you do will probably improve your fitness.
  • Bustacapp
    Bustacapp Posts: 971
    Did some squats today. Looking forward to blasting up some steep tarmac and ripping a new arsehole in some sprint segments over the weekend!
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    Bustacapp wrote:
    Did some squats today. Looking forward to blasting up some steep tarmac and ripping a new arsehole in some sprint segments over the weekend!

    cool story, bro.
  • Bustacapp
    Bustacapp Posts: 971
    Imposter wrote:
    cool story, bro.
    Cool-story-bro.jpg
  • MountainMonster
    MountainMonster Posts: 7,423
    Imposter wrote:
    City Boy wrote:
    Fair play fella. Again I'm with you on the injury prevention and rehab, but I'm surprised that you don't translate conditioning and correction of imbalances (and other benefits of resistance training - muscle endurance, improved lactate tolerance etc.) into improved performance. But as we've said, we all see things differently.

    You could put it like that - there may be some side benefits, as you say. 'Muscle endurance' brings us right back to the 'aerobic' issue though. In that sense, all I (and others far more qualified than me) argue is that advocating strength work for cycling is a bit of a misconception, because endurance cycling is not limited by leg strength.

    Wow, 17 pages of saying no benefit, and then someone uses a word you like and there "may be some side benefits" which is what we have been saying the whole time. How about just admitting that it can be beneficial finally? Your only joking yourself, as a side benefit is a benefit.
    My London Road
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    MountainMonster wrote:

    Wow, 17 pages of saying no benefit, and then someone uses a word you like and there "may be some side benefits" which is what we have been saying the whole time. How about just admitting that it can be beneficial finally? Your only joking yourself, as a side benefit is a benefit.

    In case you're struggling with the language - the only point being argued is that weights offer no identifiable benefit to improving endurance cycling performance. I'm sure there are lots of other benefits to pushing weights, but the thread isn't about that.

    I can understand why you're clutching at straws after 17 pages of consistently and comprehensively failing to understand the issue though. If you are running out of ideas (and in the complete absence of any actual evidence to the contrary), then the best thing would be to stop typing.
  • YIMan
    YIMan Posts: 576
    Do professional cyclists have stronger legs than me, a 6'4" lanky and decidedly average amateur?
  • neeb
    neeb Posts: 4,471
    Imposter wrote:
    the only point being made is that weights offer no identifiable benefit to improving endurance cycling performance.
    To be fair, perhaps we need to define precisely what is meant by "endurance cycling performance" here. There's little doubt that weights offer some advantages to track sprinters, so it would be disingenuous to claim that there is never any situation in "endurance cycling" as a sport where they wouldn't be advantageous. Any situation where very explosive power is required for a very few seconds is potentially going to benefit from leg strength. The point is however that in road racing, including sprinting, almost all advantages are gained from longer efforts in which leg strength is not the limiting factor. However there have to be some situations where strength could be beneficial, e.g. staying on someone's wheel when they jump away unexpectedly and you are in a large gear, or whatever... The important issue though is that if you train specifically for these very rare situations by doing weights, you miss out on other types of training that would be much more beneficial. So overall, there is no quantifiable benefit in terms of overall performance.
  • NITR8s
    NITR8s Posts: 688
    Cant be bother to read all these pages, however I have a question.

    I feel that the reason I cant cycle faster on the flats is because i find it hard to keep a high cadence in a higher gear, now I can push a high cadence in a lower gear but feel that my legs arnt strong enough to push the same cadence as i go into a higher gear.

    Now is this limitation not due to the strength in my legs and not cardiovasular fitness? There are two ways to cycle faster increase cadence or shift to a higher gear and keep the same cadence. Physical speaking there is only so fast you can increase the cadence to so eventually you have to shift to a higher gear, which requires strength in order to do.

    Or am i completely off here?
  • pride4ever
    pride4ever Posts: 510
    images1_zps69b8028b.jpg
    the deeper the section the deeper the pleasure.
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    YIMan wrote:
    Do professional cyclists have stronger legs than me, a 6'4" lanky and decidedly average amateur?

    No - but what they will have is significantly higher sustainable power outputs. Have a read of the thread (I'm presuming you haven't, or you wouldn't have asked).
  • MountainMonster
    MountainMonster Posts: 7,423
    I can't be arsed with this anymore, you are just one of those people who will never change their opinion. Oh well, good luck!

    Your not off thought Nitr8s, but Imposter will come along and tell you you are wrong because your observations are not scientifically proven. Maybe on 10 hour long rides strength will not be the limiter, but that doesn't mean that improving either shows no benefits or is detrimental. All Impostor ever refers to is studies saying it is not a limiter.
    My London Road
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    NITR8s wrote:
    Or am i completely off here?

    yes - you are completely off - you need to read the thread and the links provided.
  • Bustacapp
    Bustacapp Posts: 971
    Imposter wrote:

    In case you're struggling with the language - the only point being argued is that weights offer no identifiable benefit to improving endurance cycling performance.

    I think it must be you struggling with reading comprehension as the discussion is about whether or not weights benefit climbing. You and your cronies keep modifying the 'argument' to suit yourselves.
  • MountainMonster
    MountainMonster Posts: 7,423
    Bustacapp wrote:
    Imposter wrote:

    In case you're struggling with the language - the only point being argued is that weights offer no identifiable benefit to improving endurance cycling performance.

    I think it must be you struggling with reading comprehension as the discussion is about whether or not weights benefit climbing. You and your cronies keep modifying the 'argument' to suit yourselves.

    Chapeu! He is one of those guys who just refuses to give in, and keeps clinging to his little argument so he doesn't give up. Shame some people are like that.
    My London Road
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    MountainMonster wrote:
    All Impostor ever refers to is studies saying it is not a limiter.

    And all you ever do is argue the opposite. The difference is that the evidence supports what I say and does not support what you say. How would you explain that?
  • neeb
    neeb Posts: 4,471
    NITR8s wrote:
    Cant be bother to read all these pages, however I have a question.

    I feel that the reason I cant cycle faster on the flats is because i find it hard to keep a high cadence in a higher gear, now I can push a high cadence in a lower gear but feel that my legs arnt strong enough to push the same cadence as i go into a higher gear.

    Now is this limitation not due to the strength in my legs and not cardiovasular fitness? There are two ways to cycle faster increase cadence or shift to a higher gear and keep the same cadence. Physical speaking there is only so fast you can increase the cadence to so eventually you have to shift to a higher gear, which requires strength in order to do.

    Or am i completely off here?
    No, it's not actually leg strength (in the strict sense) that's limiting you here - it's aerobic capacity (or anaerobic if you are talking about shorter efforts). Your legs start to feel weak in a higher gear because you are asking your muscles to perform at a level that requires more oxygen and energy than your metabolism can deliver to them, so lactic acid builds up and your legs appear to lack strength. This is different from the near instantaneous strength you gain by lifting weights however.
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