Dealing with warranties?

bernie1973

If the shop won't budge and you end up taking it to court then the shop's case under SOGA will presumably hinge on proving that the bike was fit for purpose but was used outwith that intended purpose i.e. for racing. Have you thought about emailing Giant with a query as a prospective customer asking whether a XTC Comp 1 would be suitable for xc racing?
http://www.shopgiant-bicycles.co.uk/contact-us.aspx
If they say yes then you have strong evidence to back your claim and if not then clearly you wouldn't present the email in court.

Also, if the shop are the team sponsor then I think you could argue that the owner knew what the bike was being used for and so should have warned you if what you were using it for fell outside the scope of its intended use.

Good luck, seems ridiculous to me that a two grand bike can break like that on an xc track and the shop/manufacturer attempt to fob you off. I also can't understand why Giant don't want the frame back - if I was a frame manufacturer and that happened to one of my frames I'd want to get it back to analyse it myself.

supersonic

I'd have thought the intended purpose was racing - the bike is advertised with that description.

bernie1973

Indeed it is and this will certainly help the case. However, what appears in adverts cannot always be taken as a legal description of a product's intended use e.g cars are often sold by reference to Motorsport and yet to use them as such would almost invariably invalidate the manufacturers warranty and any claim under SOGA. I think the case is strong but we have to assume that, should the shop choose to defend the claim, then they will present some kind of defence. It follows that we should anticipate what this defence will be so as to prepare a counter argument and it is difficult to see what their defence will be other than that the product was used outwith its intended purpose. Hence we gather as much evidence as possible to refute this i.e. email from Giant, vendor knew the product was being used for this, product is advertised as such etc.

I would add that IMHO I wouldn't initiate legal proceedings without consulting a solicitor. You may be advised that the case is not worth taking to court or alternatively a letter on headed paper may well focus the shop owner's mind that you are serious about your threat to sue. It'll cost you but might save you money in the long run.

supersonic

Oh I agree, being prepared is key. The wording from Giant is rather strong in reference to the racing aspect, I thing the case here is good. It is whether the mode of failure stands which is a little more worrisome to me.

GreenK

I was there when this happened. During landing there was a loud crack/bang followed by a nasty crash. Luckily no one was badly hurt.

jamesphelan

Thanks for your account, you are the first independent to bear witness to the incident, for I while I thought I was going mad!

jamesphelan

Just an update, we have been put in touch with a carbon expert, the photo's have been sent, so now just awaiting the preliminary findings. Interestingly Graham gave me some simple advice on how to check for possible damage to composite carbon frames. Simply tap a 2p piece on all the tubes – if the sound is clear then all is fine but once you hear a dull sound then it may be worth having the frame professionally tested. We tried this out and in fact found another spot on the frame near the bottom bracket. We had not noticed this before, but there is a small crack close to the down tube!!

Will keep you posted.

James

jamesphelan

The Sage Continues

We got the initial feedback from the carbon expert and passed it on to the retailer:

I have received the bike frame pictures from you and had a good look through them. Not a pretty sight really, I hope your son was ok after that snapped on him. Looking at the pictures the thing that strikes me is that it does appear that the failure has happened at the joint area between the head stock and top tube/down tube interface. Images 3980 and 3981 clearly show plies of fibre that have an extremely clean cut end, that looks like it is the end of the ply of material used as part of the layup of the frame. To my mind this neatness would have only been done during the manufacturing process and therefore may have contributed to the failure by causing a stress hotspot in that area. In contrast, other fibres in that area exhibit a much more typical fracturing and de-laminating appearance associated with failure through exceeding the tensile strength of the laminate.

It seems from the pictures that the headstock may have been laminated separately to the frame tubes and then the whole frame overlaid with fabric to tie the component parts tighter and create a complete structure. Not knowing the design load criteria I cannot say if this frame failed before the maximum dynamic load was reached or not. I also cannot say whether there was any prior damage to the catastrophic failure of the frame. I would however say that the way some of the fibres are cut in the layup and have been exposed exactly at the site of the failure, may well be a contributory factor in the frame failing at the point when it experienced the shock loading that caused the failure.

The retailer discussed with Giant, who in turn sent a video of how the frames are made, our expert replied accordingly:

Interesting…The video is quite informative in lots of ways, one being that as this is a hand lay process, it means that there is every chance that something could have been carried out incorrectly during the manufacturing process. No system is 100% perfect, especially when humans are involved. This may have been a rogue frame that slipped through the net. The techniques that they are using are the same as we use to manufacture, except for the metal mould used in the curing cycle, although the principle is the same. Looking at the video around 2:21 it starts to show the construction of the head tube, seat tube and down tube, and also how it goes together. At 3:06 the uncured head tube section is joined to the uncured top and down tubes. I may have been wrong when I assumed that the head tube was pre-cured before joining but I am still correct I believe, to say that the head tube is joined to the top and down tubes during the process, even if there is some overlapping material.

Ultimately this is going to be a difficult nut to crack, Giant will defend themselves vigorously I suspect, although I can’t see how the statement of “So hopefully with this in mind and the video to hand you will be able to show why we this is not covered under the terms and conditions of the warranty agreement.” has any relevance anyway? Are they saying that the process is perfect and that you cannot possibly have a failure unless through misuse by the purchaser, or are they showing what a big, important company they are, so they are not interested in taking any warranty claims? It doesn’t look like they are interested in maintaining a good customer relationship, so you may have to plough a lonely and expensive furrow to get anything out of them. Maybe a solicitors letter will help with reference to the suitability of the product for sale and it’s intended use, but I’m afraid I can’t advise you on legal matters.

So what next... replies or/and advise welcome.

Many thanks

James

supersonic

Again, nothing to do with warranty - is a claim that the goods have an inherhant fault, invoking your rights under the SOGA.

You have had a good stab here at proving the goods are faulty. From here it is for a court to decide, should you want to take it that far. Your claim is against the retailer. They will of course use Giant's evidence.

jamesphelan

Hi Supersonic
I know the warranty issue is no longer relevant. Unfortunately the only course of action is SOGA. This could potentially create a lot of tension and unwanted publicity for both dealer and club. I am sure Giant will offer the dealer full support especially in the knowledge that the dealer is one of their biggest clients in the East of England.

James

97th choice

Have you liked giant on facebook, there are loads of pics showing XTC's doing technical stuff, including a pic of Emil Lindgren getting plenty of air.

jamesphelan

Thanks for that, have liked already, will take a look, will be useful to see

James

jamesphelan

Just for reference, this is the image the carbon expert referred too.

foy

One of the biggest bike brands in the world and they cant even be arsed to look at the broken frame, i think their attitude is a fucking disgrace and i am pretty sure that trek or specialized would have replaced the frame forthwith and wanted to know why the frame had failed in such a short time. The shop needs to get its finger out as well,
as if i was the owner of the shop i would be telling giant that if they dont sort it asap that i will no longer be stocking their products any more. I really feel for you and your son and i will not be recommending giant bikes to anyone after the way you have been treated.

nicklouse

jamesphelan wrote:

Just for reference, this is the image the carbon expert referred too.

that picture to me tells a lot. straight lines are not failure modes. To me it is a construction failure. it has just not joined the head tube unit and the top tube correctly.

I would take it further.

The Rookie

+1, no way that any layer shpuld fail on a straight line like that.

Unfourtunately your contract is with the dealer.

booyaka

interesting thread as I have just contacted on-one about my carbon frame that has a large crack in it. I await their initial response and hope to god it's not as tough as this one. Good luck with your efforts and keep pushing them.

kieron_67

Hope this gets sorted, looks a bad accident, good thing is that your son is ok.

booyaka wrote:

interesting thread as I have just contacted on-one about my carbon frame that has a large crack in it. I await their initial response and hope to god it's not as tough as this one. Good luck with your efforts and keep pushing them.

i had good dealing with on one when i had a crack in my carbon 456 frame, it cracked around the BB insert, they replaced my frame and let me have the pick of the colour of the replacement. went from matt black to the stickered verison that sold for more at the time.

jamesphelan

The retailer is on the case, they met with Giant rep on Wednesday, who is going to review with the Giant UK MD next week. Making the right noises but lets see... at least someone is prepared to listen...

Keep you posted, off to Brandon tomorrow on my faithful Cove! Roo my son is loving his new Salsa Spearfish which was very kindly discounted by Ison through Roo's coach - that's what I call support!

Clank

Got to agree with The Expert, Nicklouse and The Beginner regarding failure mechanism. It's not only the straight edge, but the fact that the path of the fracture tracks it so neatly. I don't beleive in coincidences, and I've seen too many failures to start beleiving in them now!

I would be suprised if the head and top tube were not pre-cured, prior to assembly (as would typically be found on a multi-piece bike frame). Whast suprises me however is that Giant didn't go for an over-laminated tube/lug design for the highest stressed area - they make sufficient volume to justify the tooling cost (offset by the reduced labour input). Not that any of this helps, as it would appear that it is the termination location of the subsequently overlayed plys that are the main contributory facture in the frames reduced load capability.

Good luck with your claim - I think you have as very strong case, and Giant have some difficult questions to answer. Can you imagine the legal furore if the same thing would have happened in the US? I'd bet Giants attitude would be somewhat different.

jamesphelan

Thanks Clank

I am indeed no expert but when it happened it was not normal, the break is very clean. What broken carbon I have seen has always appeared more splintered.

The safety of this product is our greatest concern. Luckily my son was skilled enough to control the situation and came away with minor injuries. A lot of 'what ifs' have crossed by mind since!

James

jamesphelan

Will they, won't they, hopefully know more this week, MD back from holiday today!!

foy

This still not resolved after nearly two months bloody giant what a waste of space!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The Rookie

I'm guessing you won't be buying another then, nor probably many members of your club!

Even if they sort it now they've kind of blown their chances I think!

jamesphelan

Well, well, well, can you believe it, we pick up our new frame tomorrow! The dealer has sorted it out, we are so pleased and really thankful to Paul and his team for everything.

Polite persistence paid off in the end – slowly, slowly catchy monkey

Thanks for everyone's support, totally appreciated.

James

foy

Great to hear that james why the bloody hell could they not have done that two months ago. Did giant admit liability and is the new frame a carbon one?

jamesphelan

Hi
Thanks for that, the shop sorted it out with Giant, as of yet we have had no correspondence from Giant. The frame is a replica of the XTC Carbon Composite that broke, so good news.
James

stuisnew

Glad it was all resolved in the end!