Dealing with warranties?

jamesphelan

Evening

Having a difficult time with Giant at present. You will see from the image that my 15 year old sons XTC Composite 1 broke in half whilst riding at Hadleigh. They have refused the warranty based on a report that takes no witness accounts into consideration. They have offered us a crash replacement but the question is – would you put your child back on a product that broke in such an extreme fashion?

Does anyone have any recommendations?

James

estampida

had an issue with a kona and got bumped as well (no replacement offer or anything)

but as its broke if they offer another frame take it and sell it on ebay (is the discount that good?), use the cash to buy a frame from another manufacturer

the current worth of the frame is zero, but you have all the bits...

stubs

Giant are probably refusing to warranty the bike because thats a lightweight cross country racey frame and isnt up to landing anything bigger than a 4 inch kerb. I would ask for a discount on a new frame and keep my fingers crossed.

supersonic

Did it just break? No crash or anything?

jamesphelan

HI Supersonic

Giant say it was a 'crash' but I witnessed my child's bike break in front of me, so scary! The incident happened at Hadleigh Olympic Park on an obstacle called Triple Trouble. He dropped off the third option and on landing on both wheels it broke in half. Luckily he came away with only minor cuts and bruises. Giant have offered us a new frame at cost but I'm not inclined to put my child back on the same product. We had bought the XTC under strong recommendations but I do not feel in a position to do so myself.

James

The Rookie

How old is the frame/bike?

You could take legal action, or start on the seller under the sales of goods act.

nicklouse

this bit?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Fw0GkYqJwA

supersonic

I'd try and get an independent report from a carbon specialist on the nature of the break.

Also what fork is on there, and what travel?

jamesphelan

Hi
The Giant XTC Composite 1 was only 11 months old. The video is exactly the spot where it happened. Giant have explained that in their opinion the frame was over loaded in the front when landed. I witnessed the incident and both wheels came down together.

We have considered taking Giant up on a replacement frame at cost and then selling on, but feel that would be a negligent approach to take.

James

supersonic

11 months old - forget the warranty, you have other rights. You must prove that the goods are faulty under the SOGA ie need a report on the frame saying that it was faulty. And to the retailer, not Giant.

I will add that frames don't usually catastrophically fail like that in that sort of drop. Could it have been weakened before? Not been used for bigger drop offs/jumping/too long a fork?

Plyphon

under a year - not fit for purpose - back to retailer, surely?

jamesphelan

Interestingly enough we know someone who works in the Motorsport industry who uses carbon fiber for some of their products. I shall drop him line and see if he can help. Thanks for the tip.

The bike had been used for the 2012 XC season on local, regional and national courses. The forks are Fox and had been serviced in preparation for the season ahead, so in excellent working condition. The bike has never been used on a downhill course.

The retailer is the club sponsor.

James

njee20

Looks like he's a good rider!

That's not right, unusual failure mechanism, I'd say there was a problem there before, whether caused by a crash or something, or a manufacturing defect, but that's scary. Surprised they're not helping, have you played the 'team rider' card!? I know Specialized are good at sorting our riders out.

jamesphelan

The shop is the sponsor of the club!
James

danlikesbikes

SOGA might be your best bet then, but that is with the retailer this is good link - http://sogahub.tradingstandards.gov.uk

There is a section regarding faulty goods which reads as 'Included in the law is a section on burden of proof. This outlines whether you are entitled to ask a customer to prove that an item was faulty when they bought it from you.

The details of the law are explained opposite;
If you are considering asking a customer to prove that an item was faulty when they bought it from you, it is important to consider what proof an impartial person in a court might feel was required. For example, someone in a court might accept that a simple customer statement saying that their item did not work correctly would be sufficient proof.

It doesn't state either way, but as others from the photo would appear that the frame had some defect either from manufacture or possibly prior damage.

jamesphelan

Thank you for all the feedback to date, much appreciated, it has given us a few different ideas which we will pursue.

Lets get back to the warranty stuff. Giant have invalidated the warranty because the bike was used in a 'professional' capacity. How very odd, does this mean that once you wheel your race spec and designed machine onto on competitive course you invalidate your warranty? Surely these bikes are 'fit for purpose' and are meant to take the demands of whatever is throw at them, surely they are strong and instil confidence in the rider.

One thing is for sure I will not be putting my child back on a Giant carbon frame, thats for sure.

James

The Rookie

Sounds like Rowlocks to me....was he being paid, no, so not a professional. Is there a get out in the Warranty for professional use and what does it say?

supersonic

it does say in the warranty I am afraid - excluded from "Use of the bicycle for abnormal, competition and/or commercial activities"

jamesphelan

The warranty does include exceptions which excludes competitive use of their bikes. So what is the point in having one especially when the warranty is sold as a marketing feature? Consumers buy Giant for several reasons, primarily price and secondly reputation and technology. Their bike packages are exceptionally good and current, they appeal to every consumer type, according to my sources they shift 40,000 units a year through their UK sales team!

However after sales, warranty, consumer care are well below standard. They haved refused to speak with us any further, we have been very polite, we just want answers. All we got was a report based on assumptions, no facts were presented, no technical analysis, no one was interviewed.

What was particularly poor was I left a very simple dissatisfied customer message (very polite, no strong or abusive language) on both their Facebook accounts, both were removed immediately. In my opinion you tackle customer relations head-on, in dealing positively with queries or remarks you build a strong trusted relationship, which in turn brings strength to the brand, creating good will and authority.

Unfortunately Giant have not manged our case well and we are left feeling let down.

James

jamesphelan

How strange, 24 hours ago I posted on Giant's FB account, it disappeared as soon as we published, so must have been screened, however it has just appeared:

https://www.facebook.com/giantuk

Early this morning I queried why it was screened and I had been blocked from publishing.

Not very good on-line management??

The Rookie

jamesphelan wrote:

Consumers buy Giant for several reasons, primarily price

Not yet met a consumer that chose Giant just for their overinflated price (at most levels)......off topic though....I would also argue that if a bike is sold as a race bike, then a warranty excluding racing is an unfair term or condition and as such a nullity, not sure if they don't market it as a race bike though (?).

jamesphelan

http://www.giant-bicycles.com/en-gb/bik ... 849/56860/

The link says it all, apparently 'XC Racers can have it all'

In terms of price, affordability is probably a more appropriate term. The XTC Composite 1 is significantly less expensive than its direct competitors.

James

supersonic

Warranties are in addition to your statutory rights. Manufacturers don't even have to give them! So the terms and conditions cannot be argued against, however, they are legally binding.

But the warranty is irrelevant here, and you do not have to deal with Giant UK but the retailer. At 11 months old you have every right to expect this product to last longer when used as intended. I would put that to the shop, and that you believe that you can prove it in court. If they start going on about warranty, mention it is not a warranty claim, but you are invoking your rights under the SOGA. The item is indeed advertised as a race bike and was used as advertised.

If it went to court I believe you have a good chance. But I would get a statement from a frame expert to back it up. As before, the mode of failure is exactly that of a heavy front end impact (at some point).

The forks are 100mm, no?

nicklouse

as above.

Forget Giant you have no contract with them. you should only be dealing with the shop. If the shop after having sorted you out to your (or the courts) will be dealing with the UK distributor who in turn can take it up with Giant.

a little reading.
viewtopic.php?f=40074&t=12877456

jamesphelan

Thanks for the clarity chaps on SOGA.

This could make it even more difficult as the the Retailer is the Club sponsor (as mentioned previously).
Looks like we need to get the frame examined by and expert, if the frame is found wanting then we can pursue with confidence!

James

nicklouse

i would say it would then be easier.

it is not like he gave you the frame for nothing and you are now wanting cash from him.

you just want a replacement frame.

if it is a frame fault he will get a credit note.

jamesphelan

The Retailer has already offered us a new frame at cost, but it didn't really work for me.

James

jamesphelan

Have arranged to speak with a carbon fibre expert tomorrow. Does anyone have any lead questions that I should ask or information that I should have at hand – would like to be well prepared, thanks.

James

supersonic

Just let him know all the details, how it happened, any previous incidents.

We still need to know that fork travel! ;-)

jamesphelan

The fork travel is 100mm.

supersonic

No probs then, as if had have been more you might not have got anywhere.