How much quicker!?

Pollyerrington

Hello everyone,
I'm currently riding an old carrera vulcan frame with 26" road tyres.
I think the frame is too small for me - I'm 6ft with a 35" inside leg.

I'm thinking about treating myself to the specialized allez, or the verenti belief.
I'm managing to do an average of 18 mph over 10 miles (practising for my first time trial!)

My questions are...
Are these 2 bikes any good? My budget is only around £600
And how much faster do you think I could go on either of these bikes?

Thanks in advance for any info/advice!

danlikesbikes

Welcome to BR.

Both bikes are pretty good, but I guess you will be able to try the Spec before you buy to see how you get on the the Verenti (Wiggles own brand?) you won't.

My own personal advice is to get on the bikes and try them before you buy.

Sounds like your training is going well though so keep at it. As for how much faster thats quite a hard one really as quite a few variables.

supermurph09

Hi, I'm looking to sell my Allez as I've got another bike. It's a 56 frame in black so should fit you just fine. ( I'm 6ft ). It's only done about 400 road miles and is currently on my turbo. If you're interested send me a message.

ineedalager

Another plus for the Allez I've had mine 18 months it a brilliant bike. Funny enough it's up for sale in the classifieds on here. I haveo only been road biking 18 months & already I have 3 bikes!. So as I just bought a new frame the Specialised Allez has to go. Mine's only £325 + postage Save your self some dosh you won't be disapointed with avery good second owner bike.

simon_masterson

It won't make you faster. Not unless the bike is hugely too small for you. Not to say you shouldn't get it - there are sound reasons - but if you want to go faster you need training first and aerodynamic enhancement second. Your position is everything. Work on being able to do it at 22mph+ and then get tri bars, aero hat, skin suit, shoe covers, etc.

Strith

Going from a mountain bike with 26" tyres to a road bike should make a significant difference to your speed.
When it comes to TTing your position is everything and you'll get into a much better position on a road bike.
As for which bike, they are both good so try them both out and see which one fits best.

charlie_potatoes

Simon Masterson wrote:

It won't make you faster.

What????

Can you back up this comment?


Are you trolling Simon?

simon_masterson

I fully admit that I hadn't heard of the bike in question here -I unwittingly assumed that it must be a basic road bike - but you can achieve a pretty good position on a flat bar bike. Not comfortable, and the handling is likely to be mediocre, but a strong-willed cyclist can go very fast indeed on even the most sub-optimal of equipment. That's not to say that this is definitely the case here, but I would not dismiss a hybrid or MTB as a matter of course.

danlikesbikes

Simon Masterson wrote:

I fully admit that I hadn't heard of the bike in question here -I unwittingly assumed that it must be a basic road bike - but you can achieve a pretty good position on a flat bar bike. Not comfortable, and the handling is likely to be mediocre, but a strong-willed cyclist can go very fast indeed on even the most sub-optimal of equipment. That's not to say that this is definitely the case here, but I would not dismiss a hybrid or MTB as a matter of course.

You are right a strong willed cyclist can go very fast on an MTB with slick tires (pleased to say done it myself and bagged a few on road bikes doing my commutes)

Question was asked in the Tri section by someone doing a duathlon race & whilst the rider was fit (sure he would admit that too) even he was surprised that it could make such a difference to his times. viewtopic.php?f=40040&t=12901272

charlie_potatoes

Simon Masterson wrote:

I fully admit that I hadn't heard of the bike in question here -I unwittingly assumed that it must be a basic road bike - but you can achieve a pretty good position on a flat bar bike. Not comfortable, and the handling is likely to be mediocre, but a strong-willed cyclist can go very fast indeed on even the most sub-optimal of equipment. That's not to say that this is definitely the case here, but I would not dismiss a hybrid or MTB as a matter of course.

Er yeah right :?

What about this Simon?

Pollyerrington wrote:

Hello everyone,
I'm currently riding an old carrera vulcan frame with 26" road tyres.
I think the frame is too small for me - I'm 6ft with a 35" inside leg.

I'm thinking about treating myself to the specialized allez, or the verenti belief.
I'm managing to do an average of 18 mph over 10 miles (practising for my first time trial!)

My questions are...
Are these 2 bikes any good? My budget is only around £600
And how much faster do you think I could go on either of these bikes?

Thanks in advance for any info/advice!

DavidJB

at 18MPH over 10 top speed you won't go any faster on a new bike. It will feel nicer to ride though.

danlikesbikes

DavidJB wrote:

at 18MPH over 10 top speed you won't go any faster on a new bike. It will feel nicer to ride though.

So someone who is fit enough to ride 18MPH over 10 miles on a mountain bike will not see any advantage in speed due to aerodynamics, gearing, power transfer etc by moving over to road bike.

This would be same as a rider who is fit enough to ride 18MPH over 10 miles on a road bike would not see any advantage in speed due to aerodynamics, gearing, power transfer etc by moving over to a TT bike.

I guess that the whole pro peloton & the rest of us road bike riders have be well and truly done over by the marketing people then to buy into that?

Pollyerrington

Haha, well said!

charlie_potatoes

DavidJB wrote:

at 18MPH over 10 top speed you won't go any faster on a new bike. It will feel nicer to ride though.

Based on how much slower I am when riding my hardtail I would be very surprised if the OP were riding less than 20mph on a road bike. All other factors being equal.

pinkteapot

Strith wrote:

Going from a mountain bike with 26" tyres to a road bike should make a significant difference to your speed.

+1

I went from a cheapy MTB to a hybrid with 700 wheels and instantly knocked 20% off my commute time.

Cycled to and from a work with a colleague on a MTB the other day. As we poodled along, I worked out that for every revolution of the tyres, I was travelling 6" further than her. Makes a huge difference. [insert comments about 6" being huge :P ]

gangxu

DavidJB wrote:

at 18MPH over 10 top speed you won't go any faster on a new bike. It will feel nicer to ride though.

Why wouldn't you go faster from having a lighter bike with less rolling resistance? My average speed over 30 miles improved from 15mph to 17mph just by changing from a cheap £300 road bike to a decent carbon framed Trek.

Force = Mass x Acceleration. Surely if the force produced remains the same but mass drops, than acceleration will go up, hence speed. I under the concept of air resistance increasing with speed, but the quality of the bike does make a difference, otherwise everyone might as well go round riding £100 Halford specials.

charlie_potatoes

gangxu wrote:

Force = Mass x Acceleration. Surely if the force produced remains the same but mass drops, than acceleration will go up, hence speed. I under the concept of air resistance increasing with speed, but the quality of the bike does make a difference

No point in quoting Scientific facts on here lol

gangxu wrote:

otherwise everyone might as well go round riding £100 Halford specials.

This is exactly what some on here want. All of us wearing blue caps and a little red book in our back pockets.

It's a communist conspiracy I tells yer

simon_masterson

gangxu wrote:

DavidJB wrote:

at 18MPH over 10 top speed you won't go any faster on a new bike. It will feel nicer to ride though.

Why wouldn't you go faster from having a lighter bike with less rolling resistance? My average speed over 30 miles improved from 15mph to 17mph just by changing from a cheap £300 road bike to a decent carbon framed Trek.

Force = Mass x Acceleration. Surely if the force produced remains the same but mass drops, than acceleration will go up, hence speed. I under the concept of air resistance increasing with speed, but the quality of the bike does make a difference, otherwise everyone might as well go round riding £100 Halford specials.

Because air resistance accounts for the vast majority of your effort. Weight is of secondary significance unless you are climbing very steep hills; and even then, your fitness (and body weight) will limit you first. I'd have no quialms whatsoever going head-to-head with you uphill on my favourite bike, which is made from plain gauge steel and currently weighs around 12kg including a rack, mudguards, 27" touring wheels, and probably the heaviest SPD pedals Shimano make.

In this case, as in the example that Dan gave, and as I said before, it is very possible to achieve a good speed on a hybrid or MTB without suspension. I'll post a picture below of the bike that I first used when I got into road cycling. If it was designed for the rider to primarily ride in the saddle (i.e. not like some MTBs and BMXs, etc) and has suitable gearing, there's no reason why not: not the wheel size (which has featured on road and TT bikes for years) and not the handlebars; however uncomfortable you can do a decent aero tuck on them.

But how do you quantify the 'quality of the bike', exactly?

charlie_potatoes

Charlie Potatoes wrote:

No point in quoting Scientific facts on here lol

Told you

simon_masterson

The truth hurts, I know...

charlie_potatoes

Simon Masterson wrote:

The truth hurts, I know...

Riding at my hardest up a hill yesterday and being totally blown away by a fellow club rider who is 15 years my junior.
Knowing that, no matter how hard I train, I will never be that quick......
Yes mate, sometimes the truth hurts

Reading other peoples views, which oppose mine, on a cycling forum...

No mate, I find that interesting


Polly, Sorry for hijacking your thread :oops:

DavidJB

I'm not saying he should ride 'a hundred pounds Halfords special'. The spirit of my post meant that people buy bikes thinking they are going to make them magically faster and it's not the case.

I ride a 'pro-level' race bike and an alu £1000 training bike and yes the expensive bike is more responsive and weighs 6.3KG (the training bike is abount 9-9.5kg) but on a training ride I'd gain maybe 0.5MPH on the race bike if I'm lucky?

charlie_potatoes

DavidJB wrote:

I ride a 'pro-level' race bike and an alu £1000 training bike and yes the expensive bike is more responsive and weighs 6.3KG (the training bike is abount 9-9.5kg) but on a training ride I'd gain maybe 0.5MPH on the race bike if I'm lucky?

0.5mph is a massive difference :shock: Especially if that translated from a training ride to a TT.

So based on that, What sort of performance gains can Polly expect going from her Mountain bike (Circa15kg) to a road bike (10kg ish) factoring in all the other advantages of a road bike?

simon_masterson

Charlie Potatoes wrote:

DavidJB wrote:

I ride a 'pro-level' race bike and an alu £1000 training bike and yes the expensive bike is more responsive and weighs 6.3KG (the training bike is abount 9-9.5kg) but on a training ride I'd gain maybe 0.5MPH on the race bike if I'm lucky?

0.5mph is a massive difference :shock: Especially if that translated from a training ride to a TT.

So based on that, What sort of performance gains can Polly expect going from her Mountain bike (Circa15kg) to a road bike (10kg ish) factoring in all the other advantages of a road bike?

Potentially not much at all. I've never weighed it but the bike I posted above very possibly weighs about 15kg - light it certainly isn't. For an extreme example, Graeme Obree's record attempt bike weighs around 12, if I recall.

danlikesbikes

DavidJB wrote:

I'm not saying he should ride 'a hundred pounds Halfords special'. The spirit of my post meant that people buy bikes thinking they are going to make them magically faster and it's not the case.

I ride a 'pro-level' race bike and an alu £1000 training bike and yes the expensive bike is more responsive and weighs 6.3KG (the training bike is abount 9-9.5kg) but on a training ride I'd gain maybe 0.5MPH on the race bike if I'm lucky?

But thats hardly a comparison to the OP who currently rides an MTB and is looking at 2 (pretty good IMHO) entry level road bikes. The OP is clearly fit going by speed/distances already posted so would suggest that the difference in weight, aero position on the bike, wheel size, gearing, better power transfer is likely to be significant.

pinkteapot

Going back to the point raised earlier again.... Wheel size!

Surely there's a pretty obvious speed gain by using bigger wheels. Larger circumference = greater distance travelled with every single turn of the pedals. OP mentioned that their current bike has 26" wheels and they'll be going up to 700s....

charlie_potatoes

Simon Masterson wrote:

Potentially not much at all.

How much is that in MPH?
An average speed over a 10 mile time trial?

danlikesbikes

pinkteapot wrote:

Going back to the point raised earlier again.... Wheel size!

Surely there's a pretty obvious speed gain by using bigger wheels. Larger circumference = greater distance travelled with every single turn of the pedals. OP mentioned that their current bike has 26" wheels and they'll be going up to 700s....

Did mention this in my post above yours honest! You are right in that the maths does not lie.

junglist_matty

Pollyerrington wrote:

I'm managing to do an average of 18 mph over 10 miles (practising for my first time trial!)

My questions are...
1. Are these 2 bikes any good? My budget is only around £600
2. And how much faster do you think I could go on either of these bikes?

1. From what I've heard the Allez is a good bike (never ridden one myself, look good though)

2. Depends on how hard you pedal if you take it easy you'll go slower than 18mph over 10 miles, if you push, you'll probably average over 20mph over 10miles (if you really are actually averaging 18mph on an MTB, you'll probably push that average up by 5 mph on a road bike).

Your kind of asking how long is a bit of string though..... I've ridden my 29er at 19mph average on 15miles, and the same route (with almost identical weather conditions) on my road bike at about 20mph, so not as big a difference as some may come to expect.... BUT, keeping that average speed up on my MTB for any longer distance would have been very difficult, and on the road bike, would have been fairly easy.

Strith

pinkteapot wrote:

Going back to the point raised earlier again.... Wheel size!

Surely there's a pretty obvious speed gain by using bigger wheels. Larger circumference = greater distance travelled with every single turn of the pedals. OP mentioned that their current bike has 26" wheels and they'll be going up to 700s....

Can't tell if you're trolling or not......and why's everyone going on about weight.

If the OP get a road bike s/he will see two main areas of gain.

1. Lower rolling resistance due to more suitable wheel/tyre como and tyre options. 26" vs 700c.
2. Better position areodynamically on the bike. This is where big gains can be found, but will depend on the OPs flexibility etc.

How much you will gain is difficult to say for sure, but potentially, going from a worst to best case senario you could gain something on the order of a good few minutes on a 10mi TT.

Finally, it seems the the OP is keen to do some TTing and is inevitably going to buy a road bike, so I don't see why the same old people with the usual beige outlook, seem hell bent on putting the OP off buying a bike better suited to the task in hand.

That is all.

danlikesbikes

Strith wrote:

pinkteapot wrote:

Going back to the point raised earlier again.... Wheel size!

Surely there's a pretty obvious speed gain by using bigger wheels. Larger circumference = greater distance travelled with every single turn of the pedals. OP mentioned that their current bike has 26" wheels and they'll be going up to 700s....

Can't tell if you're trolling or not......and why's everyone going on about weight.

In Pinks defence I didn't read this as a troll post.

More about the gearing/wheel size maths i.e. one crank turn on smaller wheels Vrs the same crank turn on larger wheels and which goes further