I need advice - threshold hasnt moved for a year!

MarkAshton

Right, Its time I asked for advice from the people of bikeradar...

I have been training consistently for a few years (have been off the bike at times due to life/injury for a month or so, but usually keep consistent).

My FTP hasnt really changed though for over a year. Its currently set at 275. I just cant seem to move this number up! My focus is on triathlons... so TT's

I generally base my training around:

1 x 60 min all out effort
2 x 20 @ threshold
1 x 60 @ sweet spot
2-3 hour endurance rides or 2 hour tempo rides
5 x 5 @ max power for duration (these just improve my 5 min power, doesnt translate to 20 min power for me)

Those are my go to sessions (I train on the bike between 2-4 times a week), I also ride to/from work every day at an easy pace (100 miles a week). I have tried a block of turbo work (3 months), blocks of just big miles (Christmas and Easter etc..). Nothing seems to push me on to the next level though!

I am 68kg but looking to get to 300w for an hour. How did I bust this plateau?

Thanks

stueys

Go see a coach, get tested and get a tailored plan

GiantMike

What are you using to test your power? Power meter or virtual power?

Traditionally you need variation in your training to raise your power otherwise you'll just plateau. I think that 2x20 at FTP and the Hour of Power are good workouts, but need to be mixed with decent recovery, longer riders at lower intensity etc.

It may be that 275W is your best possible power output (but I doubt it).

bigpikle

what are you doing to create consistent overload through your sessions? eg if you're doing pretty much the same sort of stuff over and over, what is the stimulus to get your body to adapt further?

It also sounds like a pretty full schedule with the commuting as well, so are you giving yourself enough opportunity to recover? If you're doing triathlons then I guess you're probably adding 4-6 x swim/run sessions a week as well, so it may simply be that you're doing too much? It might be you need to reduce the volume and increase the intensity a little to make the breakthrough?

Trouble is its all just random ideas unless you speak with someone with enough background knowledge and understanding of you and your full history to give you a meaningful plan for improvement.

furrag

http://www.hunterallenpowerblog.com/201 ... level.html

ric/rstsport

MarkAshton wrote:

Right, Its time I asked for advice from the people of bikeradar...

I have been training consistently for a few years (have been off the bike at times due to life/injury for a month or so, but usually keep consistent).

My FTP hasnt really changed though for over a year. Its currently set at 275. I just cant seem to move this number up! My focus is on triathlons... so TT's

I generally base my training around:

1 x 60 min all out effort
2 x 20 @ threshold
1 x 60 @ sweet spot
2-3 hour endurance rides or 2 hour tempo rides
5 x 5 @ max power for duration (these just improve my 5 min power, doesnt translate to 20 min power for me)

Those are my go to sessions (I train on the bike between 2-4 times a week), I also ride to/from work every day at an easy pace (100 miles a week). I have tried a block of turbo work (3 months), blocks of just big miles (Christmas and Easter etc..). Nothing seems to push me on to the next level though!

I am 68kg but looking to get to 300w for an hour. How did I bust this plateau?

Thanks

Hi Mark,

Give us a shout at RST Sport, we offer both bike and triathlon coaching.

Cheers
Ric

SBezza

I think you need to look at this statement " I train on the bike between 2-4 times a week" and try and train some more even if it is on the commute, fitness comes with regular sessions rather than missing half the week out. I appreciate you may do the other tri disicplines as well, but no doubt doing brick sessions would be ideal for you as well.

I would perhaps avoid the all out 60 min effort, unless you can do it at a decent level, and are fit to train the following day, it is far better to do the 2 x 20 min at around FTP, and get quality time in at FTP, and also not do too much damage that you can't train the following day. Sweetspot is good for this as well, as the fatigue level is not too tiring that you can't do this several times a week, you can even do shorter intervals of these and see good increases. I would think quality over quantity with regards to FTP and Sweetspot work, unless for the longer periods you CAN keep at the level that causes adaptions, if you are tailing off during the 60 min sessions then some of the session will be wasted. You might find FTP increases don't happen, you might have reached your limit, depending on how long you have been training for.

Big blocks take weeks to manifest themselves, and normally involve a fair few hours so fatigue can mask any gains in the short term, but then again if doing these means time off the bike recovering from them, then you will have wasted any gains. I only TT, but I train on the bike 6 days of the week, and only see small improvements, if I was only training 2-4 times a week, no matter how hard, the time off the bike would see any training load disappear quite quickly. It is a balancing act, and perhaps advice from a coach might be worth persuing, it could be just you are not training enough on the bike to see consistant gains.

MarkAshton

Thanks for the advice. Seems like I have two options. Increase intensity and reduce volume, or increase time on the bike.

I think my problem is a combination of both of the above. Some really good advice and its given me alot to think about. Maybe its time I drew up a training plan... Thanks all

SBezza

MarkAshton wrote:

Thanks for the advice. Seems like I have two options. Increase intensity and reduce volume, or increase time on the bike.

I think my problem is a combination of both of the above. Some really good advice and its given me alot to think about. Maybe its time I drew up a training plan... Thanks all

It doesn't have to be either, you can do a mixture of the 2, but more regular sessions will likely lead to an improvement in fitness, and from there you should see an increase in power. I have seen increases in ftp by doing sessions that have a good volume at a good intensity, it also helps in being able to keep near my ftp for longer durations (I do mainly long distance TT's). It doesn't need you to do all sessions at or near ftp to see increases in ftp, fitness is gained in many ways. Generally the more time you spend at FTP or above it, the more recovery you will need, but this then impacts on gaining fitness, it can be a double edged sword, so a good balance is needed and this is where a coach can reap great dividends.

Toks

If I were a coach (I'm definitly not!) I'd wonder if you were getting the right dose of the big 4: FREQUENCY, DURATION, INTENSITY AND REST; and I'd also consider, other possible inhibitors - bike fit (don't knock it, an ex girlfriend found an extra 20 watts because of better cleat positioning) nutrition, motivation and psychology. If you don't go down the coaching route and you're as keen to raise you FT as your post implies something has to give. You need to train more on the bike so perhaps running and swimming have to take a back seat for a season or two and you become a dedicated cyclist.
If however you do consider coaching Rick at RST (I don't know him!) has helped out a couple of cycling buddies in the past and they've been happy with the results. Good Luck

MarkAshton

Thanks all for the further advice.

I think much of the problem could be with my legs not recovering properly to tax myself. I think essentially, I am riding at an effort that isnt making my body go harder. My HR is lower for the same effort compared to this time last year, but thats half the problem! I cant get my watts past that same effort because my legs are limiting me.

A typical (example) week would be - Run: 20-30 miles, Bike 230 miles, Swim 3-4 sessions of 40/50 mins

Mon am - Swim
Mon pm - easy jog

Tue am - Sweetspot/2x20 sessions
Tue pm - rest

Wed am - Swim
Wed pm -Tempo run (45 mins)

Thurs am - Bike (1x60, 2x20 etc...)
Thurs pm - rest

Fri pm - Swim or Long Run
Fri pm - rest

Sat am - Bike (1x60 - 2 hour ride in total or 3 hour tempo)
Sat pm - jog or Swim

Sun am - Bike (3 hour ride)
Sun pm - Swim or Run

Can honestly say, I haven't had a day off in about 10 months i.e. where I haven't ridden, biked or jogged. I set my alarm for 5.50 am each day and try to bed around 10pm (social commitments aside!!!!)

ric/rstsport

if you have a power meter (which i presume you do) then i wouldn't worry about HR. Do you run and swim training based on pace, and your bike based on power.

that said, i don't think the above is the best programme, and rest is important. i know i've said before but consider engaging a coach - if you want to improve.

Thanks Toks.

cheers
ric

phreak

Fair play, that's a heck of a time commitment to your sport. Must be getting on for 15-20 hours of sport per week there?

MarkAshton

Ric/RSTSport wrote:

if you have a power meter (which i presume you do) then i wouldn't worry about HR. Do you run and swim training based on pace, and your bike based on power.

that said, i don't think the above is the best programme, and rest is important. i know i've said before but consider engaging a coach - if you want to improve.

Thanks Toks.

cheers
ric

I do base my run and swim training off of pace and bike off of power. However, I pay close attention to hear rate after the session. It seems as of late, its about 10 Bpm behind where it would "normally" be

Toks

MarkAshton wrote:

Thanks all for the further advice.

I think much of the problem could be with my legs not recovering properly to tax myself. I think essentially, I am riding at an effort that isnt making my body go harder. My HR is lower for the same effort compared to this time last year, but thats half the problem! I cant get my watts past that same effort because my legs are limiting me.

You're welcome Forget all the "I-can't-get-my-heart-rate-up-stuff" there's way too many variables and obsessing about it possibly compromises rather complements your training programs. As Ric said you have a PM - end of!!It was a hot topic 7-10 years ago - post after post on 'low v high heart' rate clogging up bike forums everywhere :roll: So what ya gonna do then? I bet you don't change a damn thing

twotyred

Furrag wrote:

http://www.hunterallenpowerblog.com/2010/12/next-level.html

Whoah that's a bit intense! Good link. After reading that I think I'm happy to leave my threshold where it is :shock:

ric/rstsport

more than one way to skin a cat....

bahzob

While training with power is great, one potential disadvantage is that it makes you very aware of your limits and when you are getting close to them. If you are stuck at a number for a long time there is then the risk of a self fulling prophecy of knowing you are close to your threshold and sub consciously thinking you can't push further.

I'd be inclined to try to train "blind" for a bit by putting your power meter somewhere you can't see it while training and just relying on HR or RPE. I know a variant of this approach worked for me. First time I did under 4 hours for a 100TT I "cheated" by setting my speedo to slightly under estimate speed so that it showed 24.8mph when I was doing 25. It made a massive difference and I ended up knocking 10 minutes off PB and doing 3:55 simply because I was more relaxed about spending some time under 25mph on my display.

Other suggestion would be to try the Time Crunched Cyclist training plan. The author is a bit of a turd but the plan itself is pretty good. Key thing about it is that it focuses on training in shorter bursts at higher intensity which may be useful in kicking you up a level and will in any case make a change compared to your schedule which is usually to the good.

ozzy1000_0

I'm no expert or coach, but I have experienced that sense of platuexing. for me I have found having a week completely off nessercary somtimes, there will be a small cost to fittness but the pay back is freshness and motivation. you'll be suprised how fitness doesn't just evaporate, the first session back might feel sluggish but then you'll be flying again... also I'd mix it up and do somthing different, it sounds like you have a decent base of fitness, so maybe exchanging the sessions that just flogg you for 2 x V02max type interval sessions a week for a few weeks.

If i were you (obviously I'm not though so feel free to not listen..) I'd give up on the 60mins all out as this probably takes a fair bit to recover from and give up the 5x5min all out and instead do 2 sessions a week of 8 x0.6Tmax @ V02max power, where rest = the same as work duration... sounds complex.. but I read a paper recently looking at the effect of different interval protocols on V02max, its was done with quite a few athletes, most effective session was the one above. Tmax is the amount of time you can sustain v02max power before you cave. the gains in terms of V02max of doing this twice a week for 4 weeks where suprisingly high somthing like 5-8% increase in V02max... if you did a block of this it might shift you up a notch... I've done these intervals and they make a noticable difference, stick to the prescribed power even though the first few might feel easy, the last couple won't and completeing it properly and being able to recover quickly is what its all about...

good luck.. feel free to burn me as I'm basically a jumped up newbie

O

Tom Dean

I'm a bit confused as to how your 5 min intervals would produce a noticable gain in 5min power but nothing at all over 20 mins. Have you done a sustained block including these kind of efforts?

Edit: written before the interesting previous post. However you do it, you need to get above threshold/race pace sometimes.

MarkAshton

ozzy1000_0 wrote:

I'm no expert or coach, but I have experienced that sense of platuexing. for me I have found having a week completely off nessercary somtimes, there will be a small cost to fittness but the pay back is freshness and motivation. you'll be suprised how fitness doesn't just evaporate, the first session back might feel sluggish but then you'll be flying again... also I'd mix it up and do somthing different, it sounds like you have a decent base of fitness, so maybe exchanging the sessions that just flogg you for 2 x V02max type interval sessions a week for a few weeks.

If i were you (obviously I'm not though so feel free to not listen..) I'd give up on the 60mins all out as this probably takes a fair bit to recover from and give up the 5x5min all out and instead do 2 sessions a week of 8 x0.6Tmax @ V02max power, where rest = the same as work duration... sounds complex.. but I read a paper recently looking at the effect of different interval protocols on V02max, its was done with quite a few athletes, most effective session was the one above. Tmax is the amount of time you can sustain v02max power before you cave. the gains in terms of V02max of doing this twice a week for 4 weeks where suprisingly high somthing like 5-8% increase in V02max... if you did a block of this it might shift you up a notch... I've done these intervals and they make a noticable difference, stick to the prescribed power even though the first few might feel easy, the last couple won't and completeing it properly and being able to recover quickly is what its all about...

good luck.. feel free to burn me as I'm basically a jumped up newbie

O

How do you find your Tmax though? Assuming the only way to do this is being tested?

ozzy1000_0

MarkAshton wrote:

ozzy1000_0 wrote:

I'm no expert or coach, but I have experienced that sense of platuexing. for me I have found having a week completely off nessercary somtimes, there will be a small cost to fittness but the pay back is freshness and motivation. you'll be suprised how fitness doesn't just evaporate, the first session back might feel sluggish but then you'll be flying again... also I'd mix it up and do somthing different, it sounds like you have a decent base of fitness, so maybe exchanging the sessions that just flogg you for 2 x V02max type interval sessions a week for a few weeks.

If i were you (obviously I'm not though so feel free to not listen..) I'd give up on the 60mins all out as this probably takes a fair bit to recover from and give up the 5x5min all out and instead do 2 sessions a week of 8 x0.6Tmax @ V02max power, where rest = the same as work duration... sounds complex.. but I read a paper recently looking at the effect of different interval protocols on V02max, its was done with quite a few athletes, most effective session was the one above. Tmax is the amount of time you can sustain v02max power before you cave. the gains in terms of V02max of doing this twice a week for 4 weeks where suprisingly high somthing like 5-8% increase in V02max... if you did a block of this it might shift you up a notch... I've done these intervals and they make a noticable difference, stick to the prescribed power even though the first few might feel easy, the last couple won't and completeing it properly and being able to recover quickly is what its all about...

good luck.. feel free to burn me as I'm basically a jumped up newbie

O

How do you find your Tmax though? Assuming the only way to do this is being tested?

either;
testing to find V02max power, then (when rested) ride at that power for as long as you can. Tmax is the maximum time you can manage before you have to just stop due to exhaustion... the interval and rest duration for this protocol is 0.6 of of Tmax..

or if you don't have means to get tested, you can do a home brew version like this;

5mins on a turbo with a powermeter absolutely flat out til your eyes are crossed and you might well vom on your nice di2 shifters and cause a short circuit meltdown... then your average power for that effort is probably about your V02max power, say for example 335watts.. then (when rested), as above, ride at that 335watts steady as you can until you have to stop due to exhustion (you can nolonger hold the power there and are wobbling upto 335 then drifting down, up and down but basically grinding to a hault) , the chances are its going to be a bit beyond 5 minutes but maybe not hugely depending on how you paced the intial effort..


or if you have no power meter you can do an even bodgier homebrew version on a turbo with a rear wheel speedo using speed as a proxy for power... I do these on an ancient cateye cs-1000...

MarkAshton

So to make this simplistic (without doing lots of testing..), its basically saying perform 8 x (3,3) min intervals at 5 min power (or thereabouts)...

I would be inclined to just give this a go and see how I get on.. I am guessing this should be done on the same terrain as I plan on racing i.e. flat?

ric/rstsport

in my experience i haven't found this to be a great session. but give it a try if you so feel. there's more important things to look at in your training (from what you've previously said). such as building in some recovery and proper progression

there are no magic sessions.

ric

MarkAshton

All

Thanks for the replies...

I have decided to try and build my own training plan for the moment before turning to a coach (I appreciate your input Ric - I am quite keen to go as far as I can by myself before turning to a coach, its my own motivation!)

I think If I am honest myself, I just don't get out of my comfort zone enough, so am going to try the route of splitting the hair and do a combination of shorter, harder intervals combined with some longer easier rides. I train solo, so also think I need to get involved with some chaingangs etc.. to make me work!

I find it very hard to see how someone who trains for triathlons can get the same recovery as someone who trains for a single discipline whilst still getting in enough "quality". (I think that's half the problem).

ric/rstsport

good luck. i think you need to take a good, objective look at your training. it's not ideal

Duncanandthemachine

Hi Mark,

I found myself in a similar position to you at the end of last year, and decided to get a coach. I spoke to a number of people, including Ric, to decide on who best fitted what I was looking for. 3 months later I've put together the best period of training I've every managed, my motivation is higher than every and i'm really psyched about the rest of the season. I know where I need to be power and weight wise up to my main events of the season and I'm no longer worrying about whether I'm doing the right thing.

Last year I really struggled to kick on past a 3/4 week block of training because I'd see gains, but then not know how best to keep progressing. I really can't recommend the investment in a coach, (or even a structured training plan - tend to be about half the price of a coach) enough. If you are serious about improvement, I'd give it some more consideration.

Duncan

Tom Dean

MarkAshton wrote:

I find it very hard to see how someone who trains for triathlons can get the same recovery as someone who trains for a single discipline whilst still getting in enough "quality". (I think that's half the problem).

You probably can't, but 100 miles a week easy commuting won't do you any favours. I would definitely suggest combining training sessions with a commute, maybe you could do your long run like this too? It might not be practical for you. Get the bus some days, every bit of fatigue can detract from your key quality sessions.

I don't know about tri training, but I presume the long steady rides have less relative value than they would for a cyclist? I would question whether you need any steady riding at all, your 3 hrs @ tempo each week is all the 'long ride' you need.

oldhairylegs

MarkAshton wrote:

Thanks all for the further advice.

.....Can honestly say, I haven't had a day off in about 10 months i.e. where I haven't ridden, biked or jogged. I set my alarm for 5.50 am each day and try to bed around 10pm (social commitments aside!!!!)

Mark

I think your statement here really is worth thinking about.

Everyone needs some recovery time. I don't know how old you are, but the older we get, the more important this recovery time becomes.

Properly recovered, you will find that you can drive your interval sessions that much harder and bring about the adaptation and improvement you are looking for.

Good luck.

bahzob

ozzy1000_0 wrote:

I'm no expert or coach, but I have experienced that sense of platuexing. for me I have found having a week completely off nessercary somtimes, there will be a small cost to fittness but the pay back is freshness and motivation. you'll be suprised how fitness doesn't just evaporate, the first session back might feel sluggish but then you'll be flying again... also I'd mix it up and do somthing different, it sounds like you have a decent base of fitness, so maybe exchanging the sessions that just flogg you for 2 x V02max type interval sessions a week for a few weeks.

If i were you (obviously I'm not though so feel free to not listen..) I'd give up on the 60mins all out as this probably takes a fair bit to recover from and give up the 5x5min all out and instead do 2 sessions a week of 8 x0.6Tmax @ V02max power, where rest = the same as work duration... sounds complex.. but I read a paper recently looking at the effect of different interval protocols on V02max, its was done with quite a few athletes, most effective session was the one above. Tmax is the amount of time you can sustain v02max power before you cave. the gains in terms of V02max of doing this twice a week for 4 weeks where suprisingly high somthing like 5-8% increase in V02max... if you did a block of this it might shift you up a notch... I've done these intervals and they make a noticable difference, stick to the prescribed power even though the first few might feel easy, the last couple won't and completeing it properly and being able to recover quickly is what its all about...

good luck.. feel free to burn me as I'm basically a jumped up newbie

O

There may be something in this. Tyler Hamilton is a dickhead as well, but still that doesn't alter the fact that he trained and rode harder than most. In his book he talks about his move to CSC where he started doing drugs with Dr Fuentes. What's interesting is that he also talks about making a change to his training at the same time which basically consisted of doing series of very intense intervals, what he called 40-20s. That is 40s full gas followed by 20s rest repeated over and over. He says of them "these may have been the toughest and most productive workouts I have ever done". Given his experience prior to that point that's saying something. So like you say these sort of intense sessions may be a good way to break through a plateau.

ric/rstsport

people have been using these or similar sessions for years. but, and i repeat, there are no magic sessions. you need to get the mix of training and rest correct in the first place. The OP has bigger issues to worry about than some 'amazing' interval session!

ric