Thatcher: Traitor or Saint ?

thegreatdivide

It's a good day for Mogwai record sales.

VTech

Funny how Gordon Brown doesnt enter into these arguments ? He committed the biggest sin in UK history, one far greater than any banking loss yet seems to walk scott free.

ddraver

I'm deliberately staying out of this (ok I'm failing) as like Mike, I was nt old enough to remember or experience any of what she did. But The reason no one has mentioned Gordon Brown is because ITS A DISCUSSION ABOUT MARGRET THATCHER FOR FFFFFFFFFFFFFLIPS SAKE!!! (All of the pointlessness of GB politics is encapsulated in that one post

Anyway, I'm watching that Iron Lady fillum now to learn a bit about sh1t...

EKIMIKE

VTech wrote:

Funny how Gordon Brown doesnt enter into these arguments ? He committed the biggest sin in UK history, one far greater than any banking loss yet seems to walk scott free.

Just one of many who perpetuated (predominantly) neo-liberal policy consensus. Nothing notable about him. If it wasn't him, someone else would have done exactly the same. Brown was just a dull derivative of the overwhelming bi-partisan consensus in favour of those (predominantly) neo-liberal policies.

Cleat Eastwood

VTech wrote:

steerpike wrote:

VTech wrote:

steerpike wrote:

VTech wrote:

She was one of the only politicians to keep to her word from start to finish.
As Pross said, she didnt hide anything.

People blame her but they dont blame the workers who were willing to strike for stupid things like toilet paper in a toilet block (British Leyland).
She ruled the party, had the balls to do what she said she would and made Britain a global force.
It amazes me how people now blame here, we all had/have a right to work and why should be want something for nothing ? She stood up for moral decency and the weak and simple minded suffered because she was in power but life has always been about looking after yourself. The human race is one of the only where people expect a right to a decent life without the need to work for it.

The fact that she enjoyed the support of toads like you says it all really.

DING DONG THE WITCH IS DEAD!

You should be ashamed of yourself.
Mock me, I can take it but mocking the dead is shocking, you need horse whipping

I'm simply showing due respect to all her many victims; those she shat on, disregarded, sneered at and let down. Hope she rots in hell - the gushing eulogies from the Bullingdon boys on the evening news is making me feel sick.

Out of interest, can you point me towards a single victim of Mrs Thatcher ?

David Jones.

EKIMIKE

VTech wrote:

Out of interest, can you point me towards a single victim of Mrs Thatcher ?

Out of interest, can you point me towards a single victim of Gordon Brown?

:roll:

It's irrelevant. Bad things happened to lots of people under Thatchers, just like they did when the neo-liberal time bomb went boom under Labour/Brown. Individuals don't matter. Economics is about groups of people - not individuals.

disgruntledgoat

As an aside, she's the only post 40s PM I can think of to have had a real job

disgruntledgoat

EKIMIKE wrote:

VTech wrote:

Out of interest, can you point me towards a single victim of Mrs Thatcher ?

Out of interest, can you point me towards a single victim of Gordon Brown?

:roll:

Several Nokias and every sports team he ever wished well?

EKIMIKE

Economically speaking...

domhnall_dearg

disgruntledgoat wrote:

As an aside, she's the only post 40s PM I can think of to have had a real job

Apart from all those that served in the forces in the two world wars. In other words all her predecessors other than Wilson and Douglas-Home.

random man

VTech wrote:

Out of interest, can you point me towards a single victim of Mrs Thatcher ?

I could point to plenty of victims, just visit the coalfield communities that existed purely because of the local mine. Once that was shut there was nothing to take it's place, hence massive unemployment and dependance on the welfare state, not to mention a huge drug problem.
Whether you attribute this to Thatcher or the clash of political ideologies which caused the miners strike depends on your political persuasion, but the fact is that a massive industry was demolished without a single thought being given to how those who depended on it would survive once it was gone.
Lessons have definitely been learned from that.

finchy

disgruntledgoat wrote:

As an aside, she's the only post 40s PM I can think of to have had a real job

Blair was a barman, Major worked for his dad's garden ornaments company and before that as a clerk and after that in a bank. Are they real jobs?

ballysmate

random man wrote:

VTech wrote:

Out of interest, can you point me towards a single victim of Mrs Thatcher ?

I could point to plenty of victims, just visit the coalfield communities that existed purely because of the local mine. Once that was shut there was nothing to take it's place, hence massive unemployment and dependance on the welfare state, not to mention a huge drug problem.
Whether you attribute this to Thatcher or the clash of political ideologies which caused the miners strike depends on your political persuasion, but the fact is that a massive industry was demolished without a single thought being given to how those who depended on it would survive once it was gone.
Lessons have definitely been learned from that.

Playing the what if game then.
If the Govt had decided to keep all the mines open, what would you have done with all of the unwanted coal that would have been produced over the last 29 years?

ddraver

Just to throw in one fact I do know being slightly in the business, It's cheaper for the Steel works at Port Talbot to import their coal from Australia than mine it in S Wales. That's not the fault of Thatcher, it's a fact of geology...I don't know so much about the rest of the UK coal areas to comment on them...

EKIMIKE

ddraver wrote:

it's a fact of geology...

Indeed. An inevitability. I think for industry at least it wasn't that privatisation was inherently bad (there were successes and failures, always will be) it was more that a culture of private profits prevailed over investment.

Regardless of the political ideology, if private/individual profits take precedence over the growth/reform/restructuring/diversification of industry as a whole then you're asking fro trouble.

Maybe it was a co-incidence but under Thatchers government the culture of lining your own pockets first and foremost took hold of not just British industry but British business culture as a whole. That is the legacy that has endured. A massive gap in investment, but a supremely rich elite minority (not necessarily British mind you).

Frank the tank

Ballysmate wrote:

random man wrote:

VTech wrote:

Out of interest, can you point me towards a single victim of Mrs Thatcher ?

I could point to plenty of victims, just visit the coalfield communities that existed purely because of the local mine. Once that was shut there was nothing to take it's place, hence massive unemployment and dependance on the welfare state, not to mention a huge drug problem.
Whether you attribute this to Thatcher or the clash of political ideologies which caused the miners strike depends on your political persuasion, but the fact is that a massive industry was demolished without a single thought being given to how those who depended on it would survive once it was gone.
Lessons have definitely been learned from that.

Playing the what if game then.
If the Govt had decided to keep all the mines open, what would you have done with all of the unwanted coal that would have been produced over the last 29 years?

I think we'd have come up with a cunning plan and burnt it.

ddraver

EKIMIKE wrote:

ddraver wrote:

it's a fact of geology...

Indeed. An inevitability. I think for industry at least it wasn't that privatisation was inherently bad (there were successes and failures, always will be) it was more that a culture of private profits prevailed over investment.

Regardless of the political ideology, if private/individual profits take precedence over the growth/reform/restructuring/diversification of industry as a whole then you're asking fro trouble.

Maybe it was a co-incidence but under Thatchers government the culture of lining your own pockets first and foremost took hold of not just British industry but British business culture as a whole. That is the legacy that has endured. A massive gap in investment, but a supremely rich elite minority (not necessarily British mind you).

I think we re pretty much in agreement Mike - funny feeling on the internet

ballysmate

Watch out for the tree huggers Frank

nicensleazy

Interested. One I have been pondering. However, coming from a South Wales mining family, you don't need to go to far to be reminded of Thatchers legacy. This women and her cabinet destroyed a proud hard working mining community. Communities were and still are effected by the fallout. I would also place Scargill in the dock alongside Thatcher. I have very fond memories of visiting NCB coal fields with my Uncle and Grandfather. Lets not forget, great players who wear the no 10 jersey and play for Wales were crafted from coal dust! Personally, I will not shed a tear over the death of Thatcher.

finchy

nicensleazy wrote:

Lets not forget, great players who wear the no 10 jersey and play for Wales were crafted from coal dust!

Wales were on fire this year.

ballysmate

I come from a mining community.I remember everything covered in coaldust. Since the pit closed, the area has been cleaned up and houses built on the pit head. It is like upgrading to colour telly from black and white.
My father, grandfather, uncle, father in law and 2 of my wife's brothers worked down the pit.
My father finished in 1986 after 39 years, his lungs shagged. He knew many ex miners wheezing into their oxygen masks. He died 2 years ago when his chest finally gave out. His wish all his life was that I wouldn't follow him down the mines.
He certainly didn't lament the passing of this dirty dangerous industry.
He certainly couldn't understand why men would want to send their sons down to risk their health to dig coal out of the ground that no-one wanted to buy.

VTech

deleted as even though I have a valid point, it will offend.

Wirral_paul

random man wrote:

VTech wrote:

Out of interest, can you point me towards a single victim of Mrs Thatcher ?

I could point to plenty of victims, just visit the coalfield communities that existed purely because of the local mine.

In case you didnt notice - as many others have said, British Coal was pretty much finished as a sustainable industry before Maggie came along!! Like it or not - she did what had to be done and refused to fall into the hands of the bullying unions of the time!! Scargill and his cronies were the ones to blame for ending any sort of chance that the mines in this country had - not her!! My family are from Port Talbot in S Wales and so are from the coal
/ steel industry.

Her biggest mistake was the Poll Tax - not her handling of the unions who had way too much power before she stamped on them (good on her!!). Who can argue over her stamping on the Argies though - something we could do with doing again now quite frankly!!

ballysmate

VTech wrote:

deleted as even though I have a valid point, it will offend.

Intrigued now, VTech.
Post it. People will decide for themselves if it causes offence.

random man

Ballysmate wrote:

Playing the what if game then.
If the Govt had decided to keep all the mines open, what would you have done with all of the unwanted coal that would have been produced over the last 29 years?

My point was more to do with the inhuman way that the coalfield communities were dealt with rather than trying to justify keeping uneconomic mines open. Tough decisions don't have to be made heartlessly but one of Thatcher's legacies is just that, heartlessness.

team47b

VTech wrote:

steerpike wrote:

VTech wrote:

steerpike wrote:

VTech wrote:

She was one of the only politicians to keep to her word from start to finish.
As Pross said, she didnt hide anything.

People blame her but they dont blame the workers who were willing to strike for stupid things like toilet paper in a toilet block (British Leyland).
She ruled the party, had the balls to do what she said she would and made Britain a global force.
It amazes me how people now blame here, we all had/have a right to work and why should be want something for nothing ? She stood up for moral decency and the weak and simple minded suffered because she was in power but life has always been about looking after yourself. The human race is one of the only where people expect a right to a decent life without the need to work for it.

The fact that she enjoyed the support of toads like you says it all really.

DING DONG THE WITCH IS DEAD!

You should be ashamed of yourself.
Mock me, I can take it but mocking the dead is shocking, you need horse whipping

I'm simply showing due respect to all her many victims; those she shat on, disregarded, sneered at and let down. Hope she rots in hell - the gushing eulogies from the Bullingdon boys on the evening news is making me feel sick.

Out of interest, can you point me towards a single victim of Mrs Thatcher ?

I'm not surprised you had to ask this question, you wouldn't have known the answer, what with you being nine at the time

I think we would need a seperate thread for all of those 'victims'

ballysmate

random man wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

Playing the what if game then.
If the Govt had decided to keep all the mines open, what would you have done with all of the unwanted coal that would have been produced over the last 29 years?

My point was more to do with the inhuman way that the coalfield communities were dealt with rather than trying to justify keeping uneconomic mines open. Tough decisions don't have to be made heartlessly but one of Thatcher's legacies is just that, heartlessness.

If we start with the premise that the industry was no longer viable, as there wasn't a market for the coal being produced, due to lack of demand and cost, how should the situation be handled other than closing mines. The NUM went on strike to try to force the Coal Board, or British Coal as I think it was called then, to keep the unviable mines open. To keep the mines open would have required huge subsidies.
Subsidising industries just encourages poor practices. Just look across the entire EU where farmers have been paid to grow nothing, to leave fields bare.
I obviously don't know where you work, but if God forbid, the owner decide it was no longer economic to keep it open, going on strike for 12 months and thus closing the place down yourself wouldn't be the wisest option. Or you could apply for a subsidy, based on the precedent set for the mines if the Government chosen that option.

Wirral_paul

team47b wrote:

I'm not surprised you had to ask this question, you wouldn't have known the answer, what with you being nine at the time

I think we would need a seperate thread for all of those 'victims'

Please feel free to show us some examples - us poor deluded fools who think the unions brought this county's manufacturing industry virtually to its knees rather than Maggie clearly need the benefit of your wisdom.

random man

Ballysmate wrote:

random man wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

Playing the what if game then.
If the Govt had decided to keep all the mines open, what would you have done with all of the unwanted coal that would have been produced over the last 29 years?

My point was more to do with the inhuman way that the coalfield communities were dealt with rather than trying to justify keeping uneconomic mines open. Tough decisions don't have to be made heartlessly but one of Thatcher's legacies is just that, heartlessness.

If we start with the premise that the industry was no longer viable, as there wasn't a market for the coal being produced, due to lack of demand and cost, how should the situation be handled other than closing mines. The NUM went on strike to try to force the Coal Board, or British Coal as I think it was called then, to keep the unviable mines open. To keep the mines open would have required huge subsidies.
Subsidising industries just encourages poor practices. Just look across the entire EU where farmers have been paid to grow nothing, to leave fields bare.
I obviously don't know where you work, but if God forbid, the owner decide it was no longer economic to keep it open, going on strike for 12 months and thus closing the place down yourself wouldn't be the wisest option. Or you could apply for a subsidy, based on the precedent set for the mines if the Government chosen that option.

Huge subsidies to keep mines open until viable alternative employment was available, or huge welfare payments to keep people unemployed?
It's a tough one, but the current government tell us they would rather have people in work than on benefits, so what do I know, although as a taxpayer I'd rather pay to keep people employed than unemployed.

Mikey23

Neither a saint nor a sinner. Merely a woman of her times who stood up to be counted at her moment in history and had the courage and conviction to stand up for what she believed in and lived and died for politics. I didn't agree with much of what she did but I voted for her three times ...