Thatcher: Traitor or Saint ?

pinno

Got rid of:

The GLC
The rent authority - something this govt. should look at instead of capping HB/Welfare
The Highlands and Islands Development Board
Most of our employment rights - now thankfully almost fully restored by the EU
The milk marketing board
...and more.

She:

Introduced neo-liberalism and market forces to 'run' essential utilities and communications/transport.
Sold off half the UK and transformed it into a PLC. It still goes on - an American company is now going to run our search and rescue for example.
Sold us the idea and initiated the age of hedonism and the spurious concept that a society does not exist!
Brought in the poll tax
Brought mining and many other industries to its knees just simply to curb the power of the unions and for nothing else
(makes no economic sense to import coal from Poland at a 100% loss than to mine it ourselves at a slight loss).
I accept that the unions at times held us to ransom but she swung the pendulum far too far to the right and there has been no balance since.
Well, its plain you know what my viewpoint is and what is sure is that she is dead. She should have been done for treason as her legacy still continues to undermine.
She fell foul of the EEC as it was known then and with any luck the current administration will trip over in the same fashion over the same ground.
Bye Maggie - it will take centuries (if ever) to recover from your incidious cultural and political influence.

Time we were independant.

Pross

As I've said on the other thread, blame the voters. She made no secret of her policies and despite what some people think we do live in a democracy. More people supported her policies than those of any other party so she got elected 3 times. She wasn't some despot dictator that no-one had the power to remove. In a working class house (father printer, mother casual worker) my parents were probably better off throughout the mid to late 80s than at any other time in my life, the early 80s weren't great but that was arguably as the country was getting back on its feet from the troubles of the late 70s.

sungod

sing along!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4BCUWopQQ4

Pross

pinarello001 wrote:

Brought mining and many other industries to its knees just simply to curb the power of the unions and for nothing else
(makes no economic sense to import coal from Poland at a 100% loss than to mine it ourselves at a slight loss).

But the mines were already closing as the buyers were voting with their feet and importing cheap coal from Poland. To subsidise it down to those rates the country would have lost too much. It's not a 100% loss if you don't have any cost with mining it. Coming from the South Wales area I see the demise of mining as a blessing and a curse. Obviously we lost tens of thousands of jobs that were pretty well paid, over the years these have probably been replaced but at a lower level but with less health related issues but the country itself is in a far better state than it was when I was a kid with pollution and slag heaps everywhere. We also have the coal reserves there in the future when oil runs out, renewables don't do their job and nuclear has become a political no-go - Wales can then become independent

Burndust

for me def traitor....as far as i am concerned she destroyed scotland...so much so that even after alk these years folk up here still wont vote tory

VTech

She was one of the only politicians to keep to her word from start to finish.
As Pross said, she didnt hide anything.

People blame her but they dont blame the workers who were willing to strike for stupid things like toilet paper in a toilet block (British Leyland).
She ruled the party, had the balls to do what she said she would and made Britain a global force.
It amazes me how people now blame here, we all had/have a right to work and why should be want something for nothing ? She stood up for moral decency and the weak and simple minded suffered because she was in power but life has always been about looking after yourself. The human race is one of the only where people expect a right to a decent life without the need to work for it.

slowmart

She left the country in a better place than she found it. She laid out her stall and people voted her and her policies into power.

I remember Thatcher being being interviewed and asked what she would like to leave as her legacy. She replied a political system similar to the US where the two main parties were right of centre. Another achievement.

seanoconn

VTech wrote:

She was one of the only politicians to keep to her word from start to finish.
As Pross said, she didnt hide anything.

People blame her but they dont blame the workers who were willing to strike for stupid things like toilet paper in a toilet block (British Leyland).
She ruled the party, had the balls to do what she said she would and made Britain a global force.
It amazes me how people now blame here, we all had/have a right to work and why should be want something for nothing ? She stood up for moral decency and the weak and simple minded suffered because she was in power but life has always been about looking after yourself. The human race is one of the only where people expect a right to a decent life without the need to work for it.

What other races of being earn or expect money?? Confused...

VTech

Im not sure you understood my point.
If your an animal in the wild and are lazy, you die of starvation yet you can live as a human in many countries, sit on your @rse, do bugger all and then moan about not being looked after or having to move out of the 3 bed house you share with your 4th wife who also doesnt work.

Cleat Eastwood

VTech wrote:

Im not sure you understood my point.
If your an animal in the wild and are lazy, you die of starvation yet you can live as a human in many countries, sit on your @rse, do bugger all and then moan about not being looked after or having to move out of the 3 bed house you share with your 4th wife who also doesnt work.

Its called civil society - caring for the needy and the less well off - the weak and the fatherless - you remember, the society she said didn't exist.

Also in that society you have an 'inalienable right to be gay' - something else she didn't believe in.

She will not be missed.

Frank the tank

Traitor, end of!

seanoconn

VTech wrote:

Im not sure you understood my point.
If your an animal in the wild and are lazy, you die of starvation yet you can live as a human in many countries, sit on your @rse, do bugger all and then moan about not being looked after or having to move out of the 3 bed house you share with your 4th wife who also doesnt work.

"One of the only" suggests other races. But I understood what you were trying to say.

ballysmate

pinarello001 wrote:

She:

Brought mining and many other industries to its knees just simply to curb the power of the unions and for nothing else
(makes no economic sense to import coal from Poland at a 100% loss than to mine it ourselves at a slight loss).
I accept that the unions at times held us to ransom but she swung the pendulum far too far to the right and there has been no balance since.

As Pross stated above, people were moving away from coal. The seeds of the NUM defeat were sown in 1972 and 74. And no it wasn't a case of Tory party revenge.
In 1972 the miners went on strike for more money. This had broad popular support as the miners were towards the bottom of the pay league and had not been on strike since 1926.
In 1974 they adopted a work to rule, which led to the 3 day week and power cuts etc. Ted Heath called an election and lost.
On the collapse of the 84/85 strike I listened to an industrialist who said that although there had been sympathy for the miners' cause in the early seventies, industry had resolved not to be held to ransom again. Thus commenced the adoption of other means of heat and power to obviate the reliance on British coal.
Britain was producing coal that could not compete with cheaper imports, and subsequently nobody wanted to buy.

VTech

Frank the tank wrote:

Traitor, end of!

trai·tor
/ˈtrātər/
Noun
A person who betrays a friend, country, principle, etc.
Synonyms
betrayer - recreant - renegade - rat - quisling


She was never a traitor, even those who disliked her cant accuse her of that.
She kept to her policies.

mfin

At least we wont have a similar thread in years to come about Tony Blair as most people are very likely to agree that Tony Blair is/was a tit. He couldn't have been more of a tit if he'd dressed up as a tit with an 'i am a tit' t-shirt on. Note, his 'i am a tit' t-shirt would have _____massive _____gaps _____in _____between _____the _____words - in an attempt to make (t)it sound more sincere.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5Q_h_ZDGBk ...if anyone wants to remind themselves of what a tit he sounded.

Frank the tank

VTech wrote:

Frank the tank wrote:

Traitor, end of!

trai·tor
/ˈtrātər/
Noun
A person who betrays a friend, country, principle, etc.
Synonyms
betrayer - recreant - renegade - rat - quisling


She was never a traitor, even those who disliked her cant accuse her of that.
She kept to her policies.

Owd up, you asked a question (well I assume it was a question) to which there were one of two answers.

Well, in my opinion she was a traitor as you point out a rat-quisling. Certainly NO SAINT in my book.

DON'T ASK A QUESTION IF YOU MIGHT NOT LIKE THE ANSWER. :roll:

VTech

Frank the tank wrote:

VTech wrote:

Frank the tank wrote:

Traitor, end of!

trai·tor
/ˈtrātər/
Noun
A person who betrays a friend, country, principle, etc.
Synonyms
betrayer - recreant - renegade - rat - quisling


She was never a traitor, even those who disliked her cant accuse her of that.
She kept to her policies.

Owd up, you asked a question (well I assume it was a question) to which there were one of two answers.

Well, in my opinion she was a traitor as you point out a rat-quisling. Certainly NO SAINT in my book.

DON'T ASK A QUESTION IF YOU MIGHT NOT LIKE THE ANSWER. :roll:

Im not arguing with you, You have a right to an opinion.

keydon

We don't ever say goodbye to evil, as it is lurking in the wings all the while!!

thegreatdivide

Norway became rich - we on the other hand got fuxked over a barrel.

slowmart

So why was Thatcher elected on three occasions? She delivered policies that were not popular and caused a great deal of suffering, however it was what we needed as a country. Or would you have another winter of discontent with unsustainable wage demands.

Labour spent twenty years in the political wilderness and Thatcher saw off four leaders of the opposition. They realigned their policies from left of centre to right of centre. That and Blair delivered Labour their victory.

steerpike

VTech wrote:

She was one of the only politicians to keep to her word from start to finish.
As Pross said, she didnt hide anything.

People blame her but they dont blame the workers who were willing to strike for stupid things like toilet paper in a toilet block (British Leyland).
She ruled the party, had the balls to do what she said she would and made Britain a global force.
It amazes me how people now blame here, we all had/have a right to work and why should be want something for nothing ? She stood up for moral decency and the weak and simple minded suffered because she was in power but life has always been about looking after yourself. The human race is one of the only where people expect a right to a decent life without the need to work for it.

The fact that she enjoyed the support of toads like you says it all really.

DING DONG THE WITCH IS DEAD!

thegreatdivide

Slowmart wrote:

So why was Thatcher elected on three occasions? She delivered policies that were not popular and caused a great deal of suffering, however it was what we needed as a country. Or would you have another winter of discontent with unsustainable wage demands.

Labour spent twenty years in the political wilderness and Thatcher saw off four leaders of the opposition. They realigned their policies from left of centre to right of centre. That and Blair delivered Labour their victory.

Like the vast majority of my fellow Scots we never voted for her. It was you lot down there that kept putting her in power.

VTech

steerpike wrote:

VTech wrote:

She was one of the only politicians to keep to her word from start to finish.
As Pross said, she didnt hide anything.

People blame her but they dont blame the workers who were willing to strike for stupid things like toilet paper in a toilet block (British Leyland).
She ruled the party, had the balls to do what she said she would and made Britain a global force.
It amazes me how people now blame here, we all had/have a right to work and why should be want something for nothing ? She stood up for moral decency and the weak and simple minded suffered because she was in power but life has always been about looking after yourself. The human race is one of the only where people expect a right to a decent life without the need to work for it.

The fact that she enjoyed the support of toads like you says it all really.

DING DONG THE WITCH IS DEAD!

You should be ashamed of yourself.
Mock me, I can take it but mocking the dead is shocking, you need horse whipping

ballysmate

thegreatdivide wrote:

Slowmart wrote:

So why was Thatcher elected on three occasions? She delivered policies that were not popular and caused a great deal of suffering, however it was what we needed as a country. Or would you have another winter of discontent with unsustainable wage demands.

Labour spent twenty years in the political wilderness and Thatcher saw off four leaders of the opposition. They realigned their policies from left of centre to right of centre. That and Blair delivered Labour their victory.

Like the vast majority of my fellow Scots we never voted for her. It was you lot down there that kept putting her in power.

If Eck has his way, that situation could never happen again.

steerpike

VTech wrote:

steerpike wrote:

VTech wrote:

She was one of the only politicians to keep to her word from start to finish.
As Pross said, she didnt hide anything.

People blame her but they dont blame the workers who were willing to strike for stupid things like toilet paper in a toilet block (British Leyland).
She ruled the party, had the balls to do what she said she would and made Britain a global force.
It amazes me how people now blame here, we all had/have a right to work and why should be want something for nothing ? She stood up for moral decency and the weak and simple minded suffered because she was in power but life has always been about looking after yourself. The human race is one of the only where people expect a right to a decent life without the need to work for it.

The fact that she enjoyed the support of toads like you says it all really.

DING DONG THE WITCH IS DEAD!

You should be ashamed of yourself.
Mock me, I can take it but mocking the dead is shocking, you need horse whipping

I'm simply showing due respect to all her many victims; those she shat on, disregarded, sneered at and let down. Hope she rots in hell - the gushing eulogies from the Bullingdon boys on the evening news is making me feel sick.

Frank the tank

VTech wrote:

Frank the tank wrote:

VTech wrote:

Frank the tank wrote:

Traitor, end of!

trai·tor
/ˈtrātər/
Noun
A person who betrays a friend, country, principle, etc.
Synonyms
betrayer - recreant - renegade - rat - quisling


She was never a traitor, even those who disliked her cant accuse her of that.
She kept to her policies.

Owd up, you asked a question (well I assume it was a question) to which there were one of two answers.

Well, in my opinion she was a traitor as you point out a rat-quisling. Certainly NO SAINT in my book.

DON'T ASK A QUESTION IF YOU MIGHT NOT LIKE THE ANSWER. :roll:

Im not arguing with you, You have a right to an opinion.

Well why question my answer to your original question then? :?

LegendLust

Thatcher. She's divides opinion like Rapha

alihisgreat

Looking at the wider context and failings of communism and socialism can you blame her for moving the county in a libertarian direction?

daviesee

Her policies directly ruined my employment opportunities. Redundant twice in a year and little chance of finding another. Nobody I knew had it easy in the early/mid 80s.
So much so, I was forced to go abroad for work. :evil:

That changed my future (current) life for the better. Much better. :P

Ambivalent.

VTech

steerpike wrote:

VTech wrote:

steerpike wrote:

VTech wrote:

She was one of the only politicians to keep to her word from start to finish.
As Pross said, she didnt hide anything.

People blame her but they dont blame the workers who were willing to strike for stupid things like toilet paper in a toilet block (British Leyland).
She ruled the party, had the balls to do what she said she would and made Britain a global force.
It amazes me how people now blame here, we all had/have a right to work and why should be want something for nothing ? She stood up for moral decency and the weak and simple minded suffered because she was in power but life has always been about looking after yourself. The human race is one of the only where people expect a right to a decent life without the need to work for it.

The fact that she enjoyed the support of toads like you says it all really.

DING DONG THE WITCH IS DEAD!

You should be ashamed of yourself.
Mock me, I can take it but mocking the dead is shocking, you need horse whipping

I'm simply showing due respect to all her many victims; those she shat on, disregarded, sneered at and let down. Hope she rots in hell - the gushing eulogies from the Bullingdon boys on the evening news is making me feel sick.

Out of interest, can you point me towards a single victim of Mrs Thatcher ?

EKIMIKE

It's an interesting one for me. My old man has the archetypal working class background and to this day is a working man (welder) but he'll freely admit to voting for Thatcher and justify it too. He's also a huge fan of the welfare state and considers Nye Bevan a truly great man.

As far as I can tell the reason he voted Thatcher was because the ideology of 'opportunity for all' was the perfect two fingers up to the establishment, the class system and the aristocracy. True it didn't turn out that way. But he still respects Thatcher for having conviction and (arguably) sincerity inasmuch as she believed in what she said and did. To contextualise sincerity compare Thatcher with someone like Blair or Cameron - thoroughly insincere politicians, willing to say anything but actually do very little.

I guess to that extent Thatcher's ideology gave working class people hope. With the benefit of hindsight that hope was arguably betrayed.

Personally as a young bloke (early twenties) with no emotional attachment to that period of politics, my objective view would be that Thatcher's government empowered British industrial bosses to make some of the most calamitous, self serving decisions possible, the effects of we bear the brunt of today.

To that extent her and her government fall into the EKIMIKE 'bunch of cnuts' category alongside my childhood favourite cnut Blair, and my present favourite cnuts Cameron, Osborne and Balls.