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ballysmate

disgruntledgoat wrote:

Celebrating the death of an ill old lady who's politics you disagree with?

All class.

Agree with the Goat. Many people here would aspire to a classless society. Looks like they've found it. Classless.

ballysmate

CambsNewbie wrote:

[]

Agree 100%. And they weren't just close election victories, two of them were huge landslides. Yet no-one seems to admit voting for her..

Well I voted for her.
People seem to either forget or were not around in the '70s under Labour.
Denis Healey was Chancellor and had to borrow from the IMF and agree to their conditions, as the country was on its arse. The unions held too much power - remember the winter of discontent anyone?
The world had been changing and Britain hadn't changed with it and was being left behind. Yes the medicine was painful, but the patient waould have been terminal without it.

Frank the tank

One or two have made reference to the majority that MT enjoyed. Well, as John Finch says both her and her b@st@rd child (my words not his) Blair due to our FPTP system enjoyed massive majorities in the house even though far less than half of the electorate actually voted for them.

So they both enjoyed greater popularity than they actually commanded in the real society.

fast as fupp

FUPPIN' MADE UP!

hope she rots in hell.

bet tiredofwhiners is whining tonight!

Cleat Eastwood

Free glass of champagne on entry.

And the message for today: Always believe - your hopes and dreams can come true.

ballysmate

Frank the tank wrote:

One or two have made reference to the majority that MT enjoyed. Well, as John Finch says both her and her b@st@rd child (my words not his) Blair due to our FPTP system enjoyed massive majorities in the house even though far less than half of the electorate actually voted for them.

So they both enjoyed greater popularity than they actually commanded in the real society.

As an aside, the election sometimes brings up strange results. eg 1974 Labour formed a minority Government, having won the most seats, whereas the outgoing Tory Government had won the most votes.

finchy

^^^ Indeed. See also the 1951 Tory election victory.

Mikey23

... It will be your turn one day

finchy

Ballysmate wrote:

CambsNewbie wrote:

[]

Agree 100%. And they weren't just close election victories, two of them were huge landslides. Yet no-one seems to admit voting for her..

Well I voted for her.
People seem to either forget or were not around in the '70s under Labour.
Denis Healey was Chancellor and had to borrow from the IMF and agree to their conditions, as the country was on its ars*. The unions held too much power - remember the winter of discontent anyone?
The world had been changing and Britain hadn't changed with it and was being left behind. Yes the medicine was painful, but the patient waould have been terminal without it.

I'm going to disagree with this for 2 reasons:

Firstly the 1970s saw the oil crisis when British oil production was still low and imported fuel hit record highs. Thatcher got into power just in time for the massive surge in output, which was sustained throughout her reign. How she would have fared without this (and what state Britain would have been in without the 1970s oil crisis) is anyone's guess.

Secondly, your view seems to be founded on the assumption that there are only two options - 1970s Britain or the neo-liberal system that followed. I would argue that it is possible to have a productive economy, constructive industrial relations and afford workers union protection at the same time. They manage it in many other highly developed nations, so why not here?

disgruntledgoat

The downside of the oil boom described above was the accompanying running down of Britain's manufacturing sector in deference to the booming service sector. The rest of northern Europe seemed to strike that balance much better and, thus, avoid the cyclical credit booms that are now the defining feature of the British economy

ballysmate

johnfinch wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

CambsNewbie wrote:

[]

Agree 100%. And they weren't just close election victories, two of them were huge landslides. Yet no-one seems to admit voting for her..

Well I voted for her.
People seem to either forget or were not around in the '70s under Labour.
Denis Healey was Chancellor and had to borrow from the IMF and agree to their conditions, as the country was on its ars*. The unions held too much power - remember the winter of discontent anyone?
The world had been changing and Britain hadn't changed with it and was being left behind. Yes the medicine was painful, but the patient waould have been terminal without it.

I'm going to disagree with this for 2 reasons:

Firstly the 1970s saw the oil crisis when British oil production was still low and imported fuel hit record highs. Thatcher got into power just in time for the massive surge in output, which was sustained throughout her reign. How she would have fared without this (and what state Britain would have been in without the 1970s oil crisis) is anyone's guess.

Secondly, your view seems to be founded on the assumption that there are only two options - 1970s Britain or the neo-liberal system that followed. I would argue that it is possible to have a productive economy, constructive industrial relations and afford workers union protection at the same time. They manage it in many other highly developed nations, so why not here?

You are right in saying, 'I would argue that it is possible to have a productive economy, constructive industrial relations and afford workers union protection at the same time'. But in reality in 1979 drastic measures were needed. Strikes were being called for spurious reasons and productivity was low. Far east economies were on the rise and Britain could not compete and the 'traditional closed shop practices' were killing productivity.

Peddle Up!

pdstsp wrote:

I must admit I cannot feel happy about anybody's death. However with Thatcher I hated her divisive policies and her deeply patronising nature. With a vengeance. Like many I spent many days as a student in the 80s protesting against her policies and always thought the day of her death would be joyous - but really it's not. Maybe because we seem to have now got another government in her image.

This.

ballysmate

johnfinch wrote:

^^^ Indeed. See also the 1951 Tory election victory.

As I said, it can lead to anomalies.

thegreatdivide

Says it all really.

ballysmate

pdstsp wrote:

I must admit I cannot feel happy about anybody's death. However with Thatcher I hated her divisive policies and her deeply patronising nature. With a vengeance. Like many I spent many days as a student in the 80s protesting against her policies and always thought the day of her death would be joyous - but really it's not. Maybe because we seem to have now got another government in her image.

Perhaps because you have grown up?

Peddle Up!

Ballysmate wrote:

pdstsp wrote:

I must admit I cannot feel happy about anybody's death. However with Thatcher I hated her divisive policies and her deeply patronising nature. With a vengeance. Like many I spent many days as a student in the 80s protesting against her policies and always thought the day of her death would be joyous - but really it's not. Maybe because we seem to have now got another government in her image.

Perhaps because you have grown up?

Rather a sound mind and a good heart?

finchy

Ballysmate wrote:

You are right in saying, 'I would argue that it is possible to have a productive economy, constructive industrial relations and afford workers union protection at the same time'. But in reality in 1979 drastic measures were needed. Strikes were being called for spurious reasons and productivity was low. Far east economies were on the rise and Britain could not compete and the 'traditional closed shop practices' were killing productivity.

But as we moved into the 1980s the country entered the "boom" stage of the economic cycle. With a more moderate government in power and improved conditions, workers and management might have been more willing to compromise. In case you hadn't guessed, I'm a big fan of historical "what if" speculation. In my head I've kicked the bastard Normans out of Britain many a time .

ballysmate

johnfinch wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

You are right in saying, 'I would argue that it is possible to have a productive economy, constructive industrial relations and afford workers union protection at the same time'. But in reality in 1979 drastic measures were needed. Strikes were being called for spurious reasons and productivity was low. Far east economies were on the rise and Britain could not compete and the 'traditional closed shop practices' were killing productivity.

But as we moved into the 1980s the country entered the "boom" stage of the economic cycle.

With a more moderate government in power and improved conditions, workers and management might have been more willing to compromise.

In case you hadn't guessed, I'm a big fan of historical "what if" speculation. In my head I've kicked the bastard Normans out of Britain many a time .

I too have played the wha if? game and know what you mean about the Normans. What if those fecking Danes hadn't pitched up first and we had to fight the feckers off, then march south?

Four years ago I attended a 'do' at a local working men's club to mark the 25 anniversary of the miners' strike.
Speaker after speaker, and even listening to the conversations around me, made it clear that they did not regard the strike as an industrial dispute. It was regarded as a political act to bring down the hated 'Thatcher Govt'. People there regaled each other with tales of the traps that they laid for the police and the men that chose to work. These men did not want to compromise. The mood was unnerving to say the least.
One speaker in particular, a Labour MP was a disgrace. If his rhetoric had been made in public, there would have been uproar, although it may well have been the case that he knew his audience and pitched his spech at them.
A real eye opener.

finchy

Fair enough, but that's probably a self-selecting audience - people turning up to commemorate it and swapping tales like that would have been those who were in it for the politics rather than workers' rights. What about the millions of other workers around the country who just wanting to protect themselves but had no intention of bringing down the elected government? Under different circumstances, they might have been more forthright in their opinions and have had more influence. I always say the same thing when I'm arguing with Jews/Muslims about Israel and Palestine - the most important thing is to avoid the blame game and try to make sure that the moderates on each side are empowered, rather than the extremists.

BTW, the best way to deal with the Normans is to sneak round behind them, destroy their ships (and therefore supply lines) and then fight a war of attrition.

Pross

I still find it deeply unedifying to see grown adults celebrating the death of an elderly woman. OK her policies were bad for some (too easy to say the working classes as many prospered during her time) but others have to share the blame for the worst of this. The group who were probably most betrayed by her were the rebel miners who went back to work and subsequently lost their jobs anyway. I can certainly understand a bitterness and hatred even there but not celebrating a death, that should be reserved for those who deliberately take lives and commit atrocities.

I genuinely can't recall seeing the death of Sadam or Bin Laden being celebrated as much as Thatcher's death has been in some quarters - do people really class her as a higher level of evil than those? Little gets made of the good she did, most notably the role she played in speeding up the end of the Cold War and I suspect the residents of the Falklands were glad of her even if the conflict was cynical political move. Don't get me wrong, although I was young at the time I'm not a fan of many of her policies and the country certainly changed during her time (but then so did much of the world). I do admire her for sticking to her principles though in comparison to the current batch of politicians who do whatever is deemed popular.

steerpike

Pross wrote:

I still find it deeply unedifying to see grown adults celebrating the death of an elderly woman.

oh stop being so damned PIOUS for godssakes.

Pross wrote:

I genuinely can't recall seeing the death of Sadam or Bin Laden being celebrated as much as Thatcher's death has been in some quarters

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha !!!!!!!!!!!!

ballysmate

johnfinch wrote:

Fair enough, but that's probably a self-selecting audience - people turning up to commemorate it and swapping tales like that would have been those who were in it for the politics rather than workers' rights. What about the millions of other workers around the country who just wanting to protect themselves but had no intention of bringing down the elected government? Under different circumstances, they might have been more forthright in their opinions and have had more influence. I always say the same thing when I'm arguing with Jews/Muslims about Israel and Palestine - the most important thing is to avoid the blame game and try to make sure that the moderates on each side are empowered, rather than the extremists.

BTW, the best way to deal with the Normans is to sneak round behind them, destroy their ships (and therefore supply lines) and then fight a war of attrition.

That was the problem, the extremists were well in charge in the union movement. Make no mistake, the Tory policies were the direct product of the union movement militancy in the previous years. The union power was there before the Tories got in. The introduction of the resulting legislation to restrict secondary picketing and that insidious practice 'The Closed Shop' didn't go down too well with union leaders, who then upped the ante.

That chap with the arrows. Put him at the back in case he has somebody's eye out.

Pross

steerpike wrote:

Pross wrote:

I still find it deeply unedifying to see grown adults celebrating the death of an elderly woman.

oh stop being so damned PIOUS for godssakes.

Pross wrote:

I genuinely can't recall seeing the death of Sadam or Bin Laden being celebrated as much as Thatcher's death has been in some quarters

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha !!!!!!!!!!!!

Hmmm, so disagreeing with something is pious now? Maybe she really did f*** this country up then. As for the other bit can you point me to any champagne parties in Glasgow when either of those two were killed?

ballysmate

Pross wrote:

I still find it deeply unedifying to see grown adults celebrating the death of an elderly woman. OK her policies were bad for some (too easy to say the working classes as many prospered during her time) but others have to share the blame for the worst of this. The group who were probably most betrayed by her were the rebel miners who went back to work and subsequently lost their jobs anyway. I can certainly understand a bitterness and hatred even there but not celebrating a death, that should be reserved for those who deliberately take lives and commit atrocities.

I genuinely can't recall seeing the death of Sadam or Bin Laden being celebrated as much as Thatcher's death has been in some quarters - do people really class her as a higher level of evil than those? Little gets made of the good she did, most notably the role she played in speeding up the end of the Cold War and I suspect the residents of the Falklands were glad of her even if the conflict was cynical political move. Don't get me wrong, although I was young at the time I'm not a fan of many of her policies and the country certainly changed during her time (but then so did much of the world). I do admire her for sticking to her principles though in comparison to the current batch of politicians who do whatever is deemed popular.

You are right, it is somewhat unedifying to see some of the posts on here. There are some people with whom you can have a sensible exchange, eg Mr Finch but others seem to have swallowed the Ben Elton act. No person, let alone a polician can be universally correct and Mrs T was no exception. She had to make some tough decisions, not all she got right.

Frank the tank

The woman had a pathological hatred of TU's and any of their members, you only have to look at the rhetoric she used. She even tried to ban TU membership at GCHQ (hardly one of the hotbeds of militant tendency). While I accept there were some operating their own agendas within the TU movement to call ordinary working people the enemy within because they had the audacity to try and protect their employment is a smear on good honest working people.

The effect her policies had on my family are something I'll never forgive her for.

Cleat Eastwood

this was posted by jayne casey, ex pink military

Her death has made me feel so sad, she broke so many lives. Like the dockers who fought so hard and friends who's mental health never recovered. I'm sad for a generation that was lost.

Sad for all the families that fell apart under the strain and the children who didn't survive. I'm sad for the little girl who's mum was so broken she never got it together to pick her up from school - she was 5 years old.

Every night when I picked up my son we'd walk with her through the estate, past the dereliction, across the broken glass to her gate. She was a pretty little thing long blonde hair - she used to hold my hand and tell me she was going to go to art school when she grew up. She never did - she died of an asthma attack. A fucking asthma attack...

'Thacher's heroin' they called it - it flooded into the city like a plague.. Dead hands reaching out you felt so helpless but there was nothing you could do... The Tories joked 'last one out turn off the lights' I'm so proud we kept the lights burning but so sad for all those who didn't make it ..

Tomorrow the Daily Mail are running a story about how Liverpool is celebrating Thatcher's death - they are so wrong.. We aren't celebrating her death, we are celebrating our cities survival but we're also in mourning, not for her but for all our people who didn't make it - may they RIP and never be forgotten xx


She wont be missed.

ballysmate

Cleat Eastwood wrote:

this was posted by jayne casey, ex pink military

Her death has made me feel so sad, she broke so many lives. Like the dockers who fought so hard and friends who's mental health never recovered. I'm sad for a generation that was lost.

Sad for all the families that fell apart under the strain and the children who didn't survive. I'm sad for the little girl who's mum was so broken she never got it together to pick her up from school - she was 5 years old.

Every night when I picked up my son we'd walk with her through the estate, past the dereliction, across the broken glass to her gate. She was a pretty little thing long blonde hair - she used to hold my hand and tell me she was going to go to art school when she grew up. She never did - she died of an asthma attack. A ******* asthma attack...

'Thacher's heroin' they called it - it flooded into the city like a plague.. Dead hands reaching out you felt so helpless but there was nothing you could do... The Tories joked 'last one out turn off the lights' I'm so proud we kept the lights burning but so sad for all those who didn't make it ..

Tomorrow the Daily Mail are running a story about how Liverpool is celebrating Thatcher's death - they are so wrong.. We aren't celebrating her death, we are celebrating our cities survival but we're also in mourning, not for her but for all our people who didn't make it - may they RIP and never be forgotten xx


She wont be missed.

That's right. A smackhead decides to shoot up, blame Thatch. FFS :!:

team47b

you can't really be as thick as you're making out, can you?

ballysmate

You are right 47b, I posted in haste.
It gets exasperating to hear people lay the blame at one person for all ills. Yes people may have been in despair but to claim it was like heroin supplied by the PM is nonsense. The champagne socialist, 'Degsy' Hattton, who was ultimately expelled from the Labour party, failed to run the finances in Liverpool and must share some blame.
On these pages Thatcher has been linked to the second Gulf War which started over 10 years after she was ousted.
If you look back at the 'Dogs' thread, you will see someone link Thatcher to the inception of the CSA, which was 3 years after she left. I make no comment on the validity of the CSA or the Gulf War, but it was not her doing.

seanoconn

Thatcher was a remarkable person, tougher than tough, with a core set of beliefs she was prepared to risk her career for. Pushing those beliefs through a party, giving no quarter and changing Britain forever.

Unfortunately and tragically those beliefs were wrong. There is little or no manufacturing ( you build countries on manufacturing, you invest in it's future, you don't sell it to make a fast buck!) resulting in less jobs for the working classes. But we do have a large, powerful and monumentally morally corrupt banking system and a society in moral decay..... 'Look after number one'

Thatcher was incapable of empathy and I have none for her now. I hope the devil is keeping her busy.