Cervelo R5 VWD Bottle Cage Mount Problems

Velonutter

I a 2012 R5 VWD in December, haven't done any big rides with it, but was planning on one a few weeks ago and discovered that when a bottle was in the seat tube, that it caught my right calf.

I have quite large calves from working out years ago and cycling, but was quite surprised how much they catch, but cleats run straight so can't be anything to do with that.








The dealers who sold me the bike replied with: -

Thanks for the images. Now I can see clearly what you're referring to I can put your mind at ease - because the Cervelo R5 uses BBright the frame is offset to the non-driveside and as a result the bottle is offset on the seat tube. It's still central between the pedals, but offset relative to the frame. This is normal.

I'm not convinced, strikes me that it is either a bad design or the cage fastenings have been put in the wrong place. and the cage mount is definitely not central to the pedals

Have any other R5 VWD owners had a similar experience.

I would welcome anyone's thoughts, many thanks.

fluided

I have an R3 Team with the BBright the frame and my bottle cages are centred and not to one side.

I would send the images to Cervelo direct as I think the shop is talking out there backside.

Cheers

smidsy

For it to be central to the pedals it has to be central over the BB and for that to be possible it has to be central in the frame.

Dealer is talking Bollox.

TMK - Bikes that are drive side biased only have asymetric chain stays not main frames.

awsm

Got your PM. I can confirm they sit completely central no offset to either side on my R5 VWD.

rolf_f

Unusual for bike dealers to be on crack......

To some extent, it shouldn't matter whether the cage is centred to the frame - the important point is whether the cage is centred to the cranks (given that that is what is causing the problem). The only reason to have the cage not centred to the frame is that the down tube was itself not centred and the cage was therefore off centre to the frame to get it back to being centred to the cranks. But this is all nonsense anyway and the dealer should know better.

Have you tried fitting a different bottle cage? I don't think it will be any different but it is always best to cover all the variables - either the cage is faulty or the frame is faulty and eliminating the cage is easy.

Velonutter

Rolf F wrote:

Unusual for bike dealers to be on crack......

To some extent, it shouldn't matter whether the cage is centred to the frame - the important point is whether the cage is centred to the cranks (given that that is what is causing the problem). The only reason to have the cage not centred to the frame is that the down tube was itself not centred and the cage was therefore off centre to the frame to get it back to being centred to the cranks. But this is all nonsense anyway and the dealer should know better.

Have you tried fitting a different bottle cage? I don't think it will be any different but it is always best to cover all the variables - either the cage is faulty or the frame is faulty and eliminating the cage is easy.

Thanks Rolf,

Yep, I used my old cages from my old Cervelo and that is when I noticed the offset, so just in case it was the bottle cages I ordered some brand new Elite ones and the problem remains.

The dealer has just emailed me some pics of frames he has in his shop and they all exhibit the same fault, but he is claiming that it isn't a fault and is part of the design, I'll post them later.

If this is a design fault then Cervelo really haven't thought the problem through?

AWSM could you help by letting me have a photo of how yours looks in the frame?

Many thanks everyone.,

awsm

Couple of photos:

awsm

This probably shows it best you can see it's the same distance on both sides to crank arms:

greasedscotsman

fluided wrote:

I would send the images to Cervelo direct as I think the shop is talking out there backside.

I would do this. They were very helpful with a few queries when I was building mt S3. Address should be on their website.

londoncommuter

That's a shocking reponsed from the retailler. Which one is it?

Crispyapp

Hi after my pm back to you today I can also confirm mine are dead central. The shop is talking rubbish, never in my lifetime have I ever known a bottle cage be purposely off centred....

You don't mention it above and I'm just trying to help but have you checked that the cage isn't bent at all from the brackets? If you swap the 2 cages over down tube to seat tube and visa versa does the bottle still sit off centre and is the down tube bottle still online? Also remove the cage on the seat tube and and look to see if the screws are centre to the tube, I'm guessing there not but a cm is a hell of a lot to be out in such a sml space....

I'm no expert but I'd say the frame has a manufacturing defect. Contact cervelo. Can I ask where did you buy the frame from?

Thanks

ademort

I find it hard to believe that anybody looking at those pictures can draw the conclusion that it,s central to the pedals as described by the dealer. It,s definitely a fabrication fault. I,ve never heard of anybody hitting the bottle cage with there calfs. Not even Robert Forrester and i,m sure you havent got anything like the calfs he,s got.
Ademort

Crispyapp

ademort wrote:

I find it hard to believe that anybody looking at those pictures can draw the conclusion that it,s central to the pedals as described by the dealer. It,s definitely a fabrication fault. I,ve never heard of anybody hitting the bottle cage with there calfs. Not even Robert Forrester and i,m sure you havent got anything like the calfs he,s got.
Ademort

Marcel wust. When I was a kid he was on our training camp and he told me he never rides with a bottle cage because his calves rub on it. He's the only person I've ever known to have this problem....

rolf_f

awsm wrote:

Couple of photos:

To Velonutter. Now you take these photos back to your dealer and say this "my mate has exactly the same bike as me but his cages are symmetrical - unlike mine which you said were correct. Obviously, his bike is defective so can you please get Cervelo to supply him with a new frame?"

Velonutter

Hi All,

Thanks so much for all your replies and emails.

The dealer has sent me photo's of other R5's, R5ca's, R3's all with BB right BB's and without exception all of the Mounting brackets for the Bottle cages are offset.

It would appear that this is a specific design by Cervelo, it is a but stupid if you ask me, I'm going to write direct to Cervelo an see what their comments are, I may even post on their forum as that seems to be the quickest way for a response.

I used to lift weights and was a good road, TT and track rider in the 70’s so my calves are quite big, probably if I had skinny legs then I wouldn’t have a problem, maybe I will look to sell the R5 and buy myself another Colnago

I'll keep you advised on what Cervelo have to say about it.

As I said, thanks to all of you for your thoughts, posting and emails.

Best wishes,

John

Crispyapp

Velonutter wrote:

Hi All,

Thanks so much for all your replies and emails.

The dealer has sent me photo's of other R5's, R5ca's, R3's all with BB right BB's and without exception all of the Mounting brackets for the Bottle cages are offset.

It would appear that this is a specific design by Cervelo, it is a but stupid if you ask me, I'm going to write direct to Cervelo an see what their comments are, I may even post on their forum as that seems to be the quickest way for a response.

I used to lift weights and was a good road, TT and track rider in the 70’s so my calves are quite big, probably if I had skinny legs then I wouldn’t have a problem, maybe I will look to sell the R5 and buy myself another Colnago

I'll keep you advised on what Cervelo have to say about it.

As I said, thanks to all of you for your thoughts, posting and emails.

Best wishes,

John

This is the best option. If your not already then register on the cervelo forum and ask on there. They are a helpful bunch. Also contact cervelo direct through that site, again you will have a response within a day or so.... Keep us posted.

smidsy

Velonutter wrote:

Hi All,

The dealer has sent me photo's of other R5's, R5ca's, R3's all with BB right BB's and without exception all of the Mounting brackets for the Bottle cages are offset.

It would appear that this is a specific design by Cervelo,

I accept I am just an internet idiot and they are a reputable dealer but I go back to my original statement.

If the head tube is in the same plain as the seat tube (i.e looking from the front of the bike they line up) and they are connected by straight top and bottom tubes (no kinks/offsets) how can the BB be off set?

rolf_f

Cervelos new advertising strap line:

Cervelo - the bike of choice for the asymmetrical of body.......

It is damn stupid if it is deliberate. As it is, one reason I didn't buy a Scott CR1 was that the top tube was too wide for my knees. Deliberately putting things off centre would be idiotic.

greasedscotsman

smidsy wrote:

If the head tube is in the same plain as the seat tube (i.e looking from the front of the bike they line up) and they are connected by straight top and bottom tubes (no kinks/offsets) how can the BB be off set?

The tubes aren't straight. The seat tube is cutaway to make room for the front mech and chainset.



Canyon are the same.



But I do think Velonutter's R5 has a fault. One or both of the bottle cage fixings are not correct. Interested to see what Cevelo say about it.

smidsy

Sorry bad description. I was not referring to the actual shape of the tubes, more that either end of them is presumably in line with one another? (so the c/l of each end when viewed down the cross section is the same).

I.E
The c/l of the saddle is presumably in line with the c/l of the stem. This being the case how can the frame be offset?

The c/l of the BB is presumably in line with the c/l of the saddle. If this is the case how can the frame be offset?

If either of the above is not true how on earth do you sit on it centrally?

rolf_f

greasedscotsman wrote:

The tubes aren't straight. The seat tube is cutaway to make room for the front mech and chainset.

But I do think Velonutter's R5 has a fault. One or both of the bottle cage fixings are not correct. Interested to see what Cevelo say about it.

It's interesting that Canyon but of course, in that case the bottle cage would still be centred wrt the cranks.

PS, that Canyon seat tube. Couldn't live with that. It's the top moose of bicycle seat tubes. Even Pinarello haven't made a seat tube that ugly. I think!

Possibly the OPs bike has misaligned bottle boss threads. Might be easy to check that one by removing the cage and reinserting the bolts a single turn minus the cage and seeing where they point.

Velonutter

Hi Rolf,

My original cages were perfect, but just for another check I bought some rather nice Elite Carbon ones.

My frame looks no different from any of the photos the dealer has provided, I'm 99.9% certain now that it is a design fault and not a frame fault.

I've been snowed under, so haven't had time to write directly to Cervelo or post on their forum, I'll try and get ti done this weekend.

rolf_f

Velonutter wrote:

Hi Rolf,

My original cages were perfect, but just for another check I bought some rather nice Elite Carbon ones.

I was more thinking that if the actual threads were misaligned, it could cause the cage itself to become misaligned. In that case, the cage mounts would be correctly centred to the cranks but the cage might seat off centre. But it should all be apparent with a bit of eyeing and measuring anyway.

Velonutter

Hi Rolf, I'm fairly convinced that the threads are aligned fine, thanks for your input, much appreciated.

I've posted on the Cervelo forum Here had a few helpful responses, but one Luddite decided to preach to me about how to post correctly on a forum, perhaps he should review his own post.

In the meantime I have also contacted Cervelo direct, I'm not sure how long they will take to reply, but will report back when I get some idea

greasedscotsman

Velonutter wrote:

In the meantime I have also contacted Cervelo direct, I'm not sure how long they will take to reply, but will report back when I get some idea

They normally take a couple of days, but don't know what time they have off for Easter over there.

My feeling is that the bottle mounts aren't in line, from the photos. It doesn't look offset to one side, it doesn't look straight to me. I would take the cage off, run some masking tape over the mount holes to act as a centre line, then measure to the crank arms, in a similar way to Awsm on the previous page. They should be the same, regardless of tube profiles and bottom backets.

gloomyandy

Have just checked my VWD and yes the mounting bolts are not in the centre of the seat tube. However this is because the seat tube is not symmetrical, it is cut away on the drive side. So the offset positions the bottle cage in line with the centre line of the bike Measuring from the crank arms gives the same distance between the bottle and the arm on both sides. So I don't see how this could be a design fault, it may be a fault with this particular frame though. So recap, no problem with my R5 VWD...

Andy

Velonutter

The frame is asymmetrical due to the BBright BB, I've measured from the inside of the each peddle to the bottle cage and that seems central, so it appears that something else is amiss

smidsy

Ok so I have read up on BBright and understand the concept. However all this does is move one of the bearings out (to roughly where an external cup of a BB would be). This allows the frame to be 'beefed up' on this side.

So the BB is offset in relation to the c/l of the main frame. Fair enough.

This still does not explain why anything on the down tube (e.g bottle cage) is not central to the its c/l. The frame only flares at the BB area so the rest of the bike should (and indeed has to) conform to normal rules.

If this were not the case you could not sit centrally over the pedals.

rolf_f

gloomyandy wrote:

Have just checked my VWD and yes the mounting bolts are not in the centre of the seat tube. However this is because the seat tube is not symmetrical, it is cut away on the drive side. So the offset positions the bottle cage in line with the centre line of the bike

And of course this, if it was an explanation, doesn't explain why Velonutters bottle is offset towards the drive side. The asymmetry referred to here and buy the shop in Velonutters original post says that the offset is towards the non driveside to give clearance for the front mech. So if there was an offset for the bottle because the designers insisted on the bolts being centred to the seat tube and not the frame as a whole (!!) it would be towards the non drive side.

Velonutter

Well an update this morning, after contacting Cervelo direct they have asked Madison the UK disty's for them to look at the frame as to quote their words: -

Cervelo have asked me to get into contact with yourself as a UK based point of contact, they have forwarded me your query to their site regarding your R5.
Having read your forum posting and looking at some of your photos it does appear that there may be an alignment issue with your frame that will need inspecting here at Madison

I suggested to them that I could bring the bike down to them so that they could check which would save me stripping it down unnecessarily, so just waiting for an answer now.

Thanks for everyone's help, i'll keep you posted on the outcome.

Ben6899

I know I'm a bit late to the party, but FWIW I would say your photo #5 shows quite clearly that the mouting screws/threads are NOT at 90deg to the seat-tube. That, to me, would constitute a manufacturing fault rather than a design fault.