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Which tubeless rim tape - SS AM490/ Alex FR30

blazingmongablazingmonga Posts: 97
edited April 2013 in MTB workshop & tech
Hi,

Can anyone tell me what diameter of rim tape I should buy to suit either Alex FR30 or Superstar AM490 rims? I think these rims are identical anyway. I've had a look online but was getting confused. Also, the Stans guide doesnt list either of those rims.

So I am looking at these sort of options:

http://superstar.tibolts.co.uk/index.php?cPath=73

Any help is most appreciated

David
«1

Posts

  • these rims??
    http://superstar.tibolts.co.uk/product_ ... cts_id=350

    does say they are 23mm internal width, i'd prolly go for the 21mm tape, but best give them an email and ask!
    Timmo.
    After all, I am Cornish!
    http://cornwallmtb.kk5.org/
    Cotic Soul, The bike of Legends!:wink: Yes, I Am a bike tart!
    http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtop ... 1#16297481
  • Greer_Greer_ Posts: 1,716
    Are you looking to go tubeless? If so, those rims aren't tubeless ready, so you'll need either the proper kit, or go ghetto with bmx tubes.
  • thelonegrooverthelonegroover Posts: 1,073
    Greer_ wrote:
    Are you looking to go tubeless? If so, those rims aren't tubeless ready, so you'll need either the proper kit, or go ghetto with bmx tubes.
    Isn't thats what the tape is for? You don't need tape and a ghetto style innertube.
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  • these rims??
    http://superstar.tibolts.co.uk/product_ ... cts_id=350

    does say they are 23mm internal width, i'd prolly go for the 21mm tape, but best give them an email and ask!

    Yes, thats the ones. I did email Superstar and this was their (generic) response:
    21mm tape will fit rims with internals of 17mm-22mm, 25mm tape will fit rims
    with internals of 23mm-30mm, roles come with enough tape to do 4-5 26 inch
    wheels.

    So that to me suggests that the 25mm tape would be the one to go for. Is it better to be wider or narrower? Does the tape just have to cover the nipples but stay away from the bead? I take it that you want the bead to be against the rim with no tape between. Hmm.
    Greer_ wrote:
    Are you looking to go tubeless? If so, those rims aren't tubeless ready, so you'll need either the proper kit, or go ghetto with bmx tubes.

    And yes, I am intending on using the tape alongside the proper valves and some sealant to go tubeless. I've read that this is quite acceptable with these rims but I cant find a note of what width tape to go for, thats all I am unsure about really.
  • thelonegrooverthelonegroover Posts: 1,073
    I'm planning something similar. I think as long as the rim is air tight any width will do, but you may as well go for the narrowest possible. I edded up getting this...
    Stans NoTubes tubeless rim tape 19mm x 66m Tesa 4289 not 21mm 60yd ZTR 340 400
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  • I'm planning something similar. I think as long as the rim is air tight any width will do, but you may as well go for the narrowest possible. I edded up getting this...
    Stans NoTubes tubeless rim tape 19mm x 66m Tesa 4289 not 21mm 60yd ZTR 340 400

    So the tape is just to cover the back of the nipples, within the rim, and not help seal the bead? Thats what I am not clear on.

    Thanks for your help so far guys - at least I know I am not asking a totally stupid question! :D
  • mrmonkfingermrmonkfinger Posts: 1,452
    So the tape is just to cover the back of the nipples, within the rim, and not help seal the bead? Thats what I am not clear on.

    Correct.

    Tubeless ready rim + tape + tubeless ready tyre + sealant = should work nicely.

    edit: ^ less important about the tyre, by some reports.


    If the tyre or rim are not tubeless ready, you will need to use a conversion kit with rim strip, or ghetto bmx tube method, they're essentially the same thing but one costs a lot less and doesn't have Stans written on it.
  • thelonegrooverthelonegroover Posts: 1,073
    I think the tape sits in the well and seals any holes. I don't think it's used to seal the tyre to the inner edge of the rim. The inner tube or ghetto method uses the inner tube to seal the holes and the edge of the rim. I'm not sure what happens if you need to remove the tyre though. Presumably you need a another inner tube. When I do mine I'm expecting the tyre to seal itself againt the rim edge. By the way, I'm planning to use Fenwicks Airtight.
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  • Ghetto is reusable nut a little more faf as you trim it tight to the top of the rim Once you've the tyre on and seated, but it should be reusable, the essence being that you shouldn't have to remove the tyre that frequently to have to worry about it!
    Yes to tubeless a wheel you need to prevent the air from escaping out any of the holes, a good clean of the wheel insides to make sure of a good seal and a good quality tape - I've just redone my rear wheel (AM classics) with the green Glass repair tape i got from the wholesalers (pretty sure its a selotape product??), laid in, trimmed to the inner edge of the rim made sure was all on and tight and Job done, 25M of tape was £7 btw.
    Timmo.
    After all, I am Cornish!
    http://cornwallmtb.kk5.org/
    Cotic Soul, The bike of Legends!:wink: Yes, I Am a bike tart!
    http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtop ... 1#16297481
  • Thanks for the input guys...but I am afraid this raises a few more questions for me.

    I was under the impression that the tape was to convert a non-tubeless ready rim into a tubeless compatible one. This is what Superstar seem to suggest with their reply:
    Hello, you can convert any rim on our web shop to tubeless using tubeless
    rim tape and vales which you can find on this link
    http://superstar.tibolts.co.uk/index.php?cPath=73 you will also require tyre
    Sealant( we do not sell this at the moment). we do stock tubeless specific
    rims these are the Stans rims and the Mavic UST rims and you can find our
    range of these in the custom wheel builder and prebuilt wheel set pages.
    We would recommend this video from the nice people at MBUK for full
    instruction of how to convert your wheels on this link
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCthWmUB2SQ


    21mm tape will fit rims with internals of 17mm-22mm, 25mm tape will fit rims
    with internals of 23mm-30mm, roles come with enough tape to do 4-5 26 inch
    wheels.

    Valves have removable cores.

    If you have anymore more questions please feel free to ask.

    So that suggests I can use their tape to convert their rims (AM490 or FR30 equivalent) to tubeless if used in combination with the valves and some sealant (eg Stans).

    So through this process, when I put the tyre on the rim, the tape is not in contact with the bead - it is just used to seal the nipples. I was under the impression that this was what the ghetto inner tube method was also for - but does this also seal the bead?

    Thanks again for your help guys...I am determined to conquer this dark art of tubelessness!
  • mrmonkfingermrmonkfinger Posts: 1,452
    I'm not sure what happens if you need to remove the tyre though. Presumably you need a another inner tube. When I do mine I'm expecting the tyre to seal itself againt the rim edge. By the way, I'm planning to use Fenwicks Airtight.

    You re-use the tube.

    When you cut the tube down in the first place, leave about 5mm or so sticking out, the extra width makes re-use a doddle.
  • mrmonkfingermrmonkfinger Posts: 1,452
    So through this process, when I put the tyre on the rim, the tape is not in contact with the bead - it is just used to seal the nipples.

    Correct.
    I was under the impression that this was what the ghetto inner tube method was also for - but does this also seal the bead?

    The second one.


    The ghetto inner tube gets around the problem of not having a good bead hook on the rim. And not having a nice bead seat area.

    Tubeless ready rims have a flat shelf next to the bead hook. Normal rims may or may not.
    Tubeless ready rims have a fair sized hook. Normal rims may have a small or non existant hook.

    Compare tubeless ready (stans crest) (nice flat bead seat, plus a big bead hook) to a normal rim (zac 19) - sloped bead seat area, small bead hook)

    no-tubes-crest-med.jpg?w=350&h=350&a=7rigida-zac-19-r-de-700c-road-rim-silver-51476.jpg
  • Thanks Mrmonkfinger, thats really good info - I never really understood this aspect until now.

    So this explains why some people say that certain combinations of tyre/rim work ok, regardless of whether they are tubeless specific or not - presumably the rim is either a good shape and/or the bead is a good fit.

    I think I will go ahead and order the 25mm tape tomorrow and see how I get on with that.

    Cheers guys!
  • Whilst on that train of thought...I found this image of the FR30 rim profile.

    2514_0.jpg

    So that doesnt have a big flat bed, but it does hook inwards, so I can see why it may work better than the zac 19 example.

    The proof will be in the pudding I suppose.
  • thelonegrooverthelonegroover Posts: 1,073
    I'm not sure what happens if you need to remove the tyre though. Presumably you need a another inner tube. When I do mine I'm expecting the tyre to seal itself againt the rim edge. By the way, I'm planning to use Fenwicks Airtight.

    You re-use the tube.

    When you cut the tube down in the first place, leave about 5mm or so sticking out, the extra width makes re-use a doddle.
    This method depends on how much of the tube you leave outside the tyre. I've seen lots of videos of people trimming the tube flush with the rim/tyre, I can imangine this will make refitting very difficult, if not impossible. Rim tape simply seals the holes in the rim. If you lke to leave plenty of tube visible, then thats fine, but I think this looks very messy.
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  • mrmonkfingermrmonkfinger Posts: 1,452
    This method depends on how much of the tube you leave outside the tyre. I've seen lots of videos of people trimming the tube flush with the rim/tyre, I can imangine this will make refitting very difficult, if not impossible. Rim tape simply seals the holes in the rim. If you lke to leave plenty of tube visible, then thats fine, but I think this looks very messy.

    I guess if you don't care about reusing the tube, trim it flush. A pair of BMX tubes is only, what, £5 on ebay?
  • thelonegrooverthelonegroover Posts: 1,073
    This method depends on how much of the tube you leave outside the tyre. I've seen lots of videos of people trimming the tube flush with the rim/tyre, I can imangine this will make refitting very difficult, if not impossible. Rim tape simply seals the holes in the rim. If you lke to leave plenty of tube visible, then thats fine, but I think this looks very messy.

    I guess if you don't care about reusing the tube, trim it flush. A pair of BMX tubes is only, what, £5 on ebay?

    That may be true, but since you can also get 60m of specific rim tape, enough for up to 30 29" rims for £10. And it's much neater. Unless you have particular problem seating the bead on the rim I'd go for the tape.
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  • mrmonkfingermrmonkfinger Posts: 1,452
    That may be true, but since you can also get 60m of specific rim tape, enough for up to 30 29" rims for £10. And it's much neater. Unless you have particular problem seating the bead on the rim I'd go for the tape.

    Given tubeless ready rims, I wouldn't mess about with ghetto inner tubes.
  • Neal_Neal_ Posts: 477
    I've recently converted my AM490 rims to tubeless using just tape so have a read of how I did it...
    I needed new tyres so thought I'd have a try at going tubeless....

    1 x On One Smorgasbord 2.25 trail extreme
    1 x On One Chunky Monkey 2.4 trail extreme
    1 x roll of Gorilla tape
    1 x Superstars tubeless valves
    1 x Stans sealant
    1 x Tesco Value lemo bottle to make ghetto inflater

    Only getting covered in latex censored and swearing a little bit...priceless. :D

    IMG_1440.JPG

    Took a bit of working out to get the first tyre done but second one was a piece of pish, quite chuffed with myself getting both done on my first tubeless attempt. The clearance on the fork bridge with the 2.4 is a bit tight though...as in the censored Fender is going to need a bit of modding or I'll be going very slow and you'll hear me coming with the tyre rubbing on it.

    I’ve wanted to tubeless for a while even though I don’t seem to get too many punctures but I wanted to be able to run lower pressures without worrying about pinch flatting plus they’re meant to roll better and be grippier and I like the idea of hearing the hiss of a puncture fix itself as you ride along…win win.

    Reading up on going tubeless it seems the best way is to use proper tubeless UST rims with proper tubeless UST tyres then next best is tubeless ready rims (e.g Stans) with tubeless ready tyres but both of these options cost a lot or quite a bit of cash so I opted for the pikey ghetto method using my existing Superstar AM-490 rims (which really aren’t tubeless ready, friendly or even acquainted) and a new set of On One Smorgasbord and Chunky Monkey tyres. I’ve heard good things about using a 20” BMX Schwalbe inner tube stretched over the rim and cut down the middle to provide the seal between the tyre and the rim but I don’t like the idea of having to remove the BMX tube if/when you get a big hole in the tyre and need to stick an inner tube in it to continue the ride so I thought I’d first try to do it just using tape on the rim to seal the spoke holes with Superstar tubeless valves. To make sure it was as pikey as possible rather than use Stans or Superstar rim tape I bought a roll of Gorilla Tape from Amazon for £3 and followed these instructions to apply it to the rim although I went round the rim twice to build up the rim bed and you don’t need to cut it with a Stanley knife as once it’s got a cut started it tears very easily and neatly. With the rim strip done and tubeless valves in I tried to seat the tyres just using a track pump but there was zero chance this was going to work, even after leaving a tube in it over night at 60psi to try and get the tyre bead shaped to the rim and then taking the core out of the tubeless valves, so I made a pikey ghetto tubeless inflator using a cheap lemonade bottle as described here. I was using this as a rough guide for seating the tyres, which recommends running some Stans sealant around the rim bead to get it to seat and stick better, and trying the soapy bubbles trick around the tyre plus removing the valve cores and although I was getting the tyre to seat on the rim bead and putting a bit of pressure in it as soon I disconnected the lemo bottle inflator from the valve the tyre deflated (as the core had been removed) and the tyre bead popped off the rim putting me back at square one and it wouldn’t seat with the valve core in as it stops the air filling the tyre fast enough. The solution, which is probably well known, was to pour a cup of Stans sealant in the tyre first then get it seated and inflated with the valve core out using the lemo bottle inflator then as quickly as possible remove the tube from the valve, stick my finger over the valve then screw the valve core back in before too much air escaped from the tyre. Result! I got the second tyre to seat straight away on the first attempt just using sealant on the tyre bead and no soapy bubbles so this will be the way I do it in future. Both tyres have been inflated to 40psi (max recommend with tubeless) and given a good shake to ensure the sealant in spread all over the inside of the tyre to seal any small holes and so far they’ve stayed up and not lost any pressure although I’m yet to go for a ride with them.

    I’m quite cuffed I managed to get them sorted as I was ready to sack it off and stick inner tubes back in when I was struggling but once you’ve cracked it it’s quite easy, I imagine with a proper compressor it would be easier again. Also because I’m sad I weighed everything and if you’re using the same tyres then by this method you should save approx 120g per wheel although my new tyres are heavier which has almost completely offset the weight loss.
  • Thanks for the info Neal_...coincidentally these are the exact same tyres I will be setting up - also with Stans sealent and also with the Superstar valves! So it is reassuring that it will work in this exact combination.

    I will report back with the results of my success and/or failure.
  • mrmonkfingermrmonkfinger Posts: 1,452
    I'm a bit wary of doing the gorilla tape route with non-tubeless ready rims, as I have had a tyre blow off the rim. Fortunately, not while riding.

    On the plus side, I did learn an amusing new way to spray paint anything within 5 feet with vapourised liquid latex gunk.


    The offending rim did have a small bead hook, and the tyre being used was quite a slack fit. Worst of all worlds. The AM490/FR30 seems to have a decent sized hook, so probably ok. Especially if the tyres are quite a close fit.
  • Neal_Neal_ Posts: 477
    Thanks for the info Neal_...coincidentally these are the exact same tyres I will be setting up - also with Stans sealent and also with the Superstar valves! So it is reassuring that it will work in this exact combination.

    I will report back with the results of my success and/or failure.

    You will definitely need the lemonade bottle inflator or a proper compressor, even with 2 layers of Gorilla tape the tyre beads don't sit tight enough on the rim bed to inflate using a track pump. I've been for a few rides on them now and they've lost no pressure and haven't burped etc even at 23psi front 26psi rear, they have loooooads of grip :D Also wide tyres with low pressure roll faster than any other combo :P http://www.mtbonline.co.za/downloads/Ro ... trated.pdf
    I'm a bit wary of doing the gorilla tape route with non-tubeless ready rims, as I have had a tyre blow off the rim. Fortunately, not while riding.

    On the plus side, I did learn an amusing new way to spray paint anything within 5 feet with vapourised liquid latex gunk.


    The offending rim did have a small bead hook, and the tyre being used was quite a slack fit. Worst of all worlds. The AM490/FR30 seems to have a decent sized hook, so probably ok. Especially if the tyres are quite a close fit.

    I've heard stories of tubeless tyres going bang and blowing off rims but it seems like it's been due to too high pressures (i.e. over 40psi) like when the bike has been in the back of a hot van. When I was inflating the new tyres on the rims with a tube to get the beads to shape to the rims I must have not seated the bead properly and the tube herniated out quite alarmingly, I wouldn't like to have my face too near that if it was a tubeless failure :lol:
  • mrmonkfingermrmonkfinger Posts: 1,452
    Neal_ wrote:
    I've heard stories of tubeless tyres going bang and blowing off rims but it seems like it's been due to too high pressures (i.e. over 40psi) like when the bike has been in the back of a hot van. When I was inflating the new tyres on the rims with a tube to get the beads to shape to the rims I must have not seated the bead properly and the tube herniated out quite alarmingly, I wouldn't like to have my face too near that if it was a tubeless failure :lol:

    I can report with some certainty that having your face near it is indeed not good. It wasn't the second layer of skin, as much as the temporary loss of hearing...


    These days I wear safety glasses and ear defenders, juuust on the offchance something goes pop, I don't care if I look like a twonk.
  • Neal_ wrote:
    even with 2 layers of Gorilla tape the tyre beads don't sit tight enough on the rim bed to inflate using a track pump.

    This is what confused me before: what does the tape have to do with the bead? Apologies if I am seeming a bit slow with all this. I will get there in the end!

    And that inflater looks the business, should be no problem to make.
  • Neal_Neal_ Posts: 477
    mrmonkfinger - lol, I'm sure I'll wear the same kit after my first tubeless disaster.

    blazingmonga - the inflator was pretty easy to make although did take a bit of superglue and zip ties to stop it leaking so I could get it up to 80psi which is what it took to inflate the tyre. The point of extra rim tape is to increase the diameter of the rim bed so that the tyre bead sits fairly tight on it to form a bit of a seal so that when you pump air in it inflates the tyre which then make it seat properly rather than just letting air escape without inflating the tyre. The inflator/compressor pumps so much air in it inflates the tyre enough to seat it even if there isn't a good seal with the rim bed. Also the tape only goes on the horizontal rim bed and not on the vertical rim wall
  • A little followup:

    Last night I set about converting the front wheel on the Spicy to tubeless using Superstar 25mm rim tape, Superstar valves and Stans sealant.

    Removed the wheel and gave it a good clean all round before removing the old rim tape and cleaning with IPA.

    The tape was a fiddle to get on...I couldnt get it laid smoothly though it did seem to seal ok. Would have been nice to run it so that it didnt have any bubbles in it. I suspect that narrower tape may have been easier to apply in this regard. When I do the rear I will spend a bit more time to smooth it out, see if that helps.

    Valves went in OK. First time using removable cores on prestas too...I hadnt noticed these before!

    I made a DIY inflator using a 2L coke bottle and some spare valves. Took a bit of fiddling to get it sealed. The first time I used it the tube blew off making me censored myself too, but a few tiewraps sorted that. I also put the bottle in a sock as it freaked me out a bit and wanted something to contain the shrapnel, should any arise.

    I tried inflating with just the track pump, but it was futile. A few goes of the inflator and I managed to get it up to pressure. The bead seemed to seal ok no problem - the tricky bit was the valve area. I think this may be down to the poor taping as mentioned above. It did seem to seal eventually, I think once the sealant got to it that was ok. Its been at 40 PSI since last night and seems ok, so fingers crossed it will be ok from now on. I will probably drop it to 25 when I am confident it is sealed.

    So lessons learned for the rear are:

    Spend more time smoothing the tape down - put the tyre on with a tube at high pressure for a bit?
    Add an extra layer of tape for the valve area and make sure it sits well - maybe pierce a tiny hole and poke the valve through rather than cut an X? (though if I wanted to put a tube in before final sealant this may negate the tight seal I could make)
    Get the inflator up to higher pressure first time - dont let it scare me!

    On a related note: The On-One Chunky Monkey tyre is not nearly as chunky as I was afraid it might be - it looks like it will probably roll better than the Conti. Baron I had on before! The website makes it sound like some ridiculous overkill tyre but it doesnt look it.

    Anyway, just thought I would feed back on the help I was given. Thanks!
  • Greer_Greer_ Posts: 1,716
    With regards to the rim tape, pull it really tight (stretch it) as you're putting it on. Takes a bit of time but its easier to get it on that way. I used 23mm tape for 21mm rims.
  • Greer_ wrote:
    With regards to the rim tape, pull it really tight (stretch it) as you're putting it on. Takes a bit of time but its easier to get it on that way. I used 23mm tape for 21mm rims.

    I thought there would be a trick like that - thanks for the tip!

    Just realised my text:photo ratio is infinite. I should add some photos if I am going to write so much :P
  • you can safely pump a coke bottle compressor up to 80psi as i have often done such for seating duties!! if you rworried about it going pop then wrap it in duck tape! ;-)
    Timmo.
    After all, I am Cornish!
    http://cornwallmtb.kk5.org/
    Cotic Soul, The bike of Legends!:wink: Yes, I Am a bike tart!
    http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtop ... 1#16297481
  • More follow up:

    Despite my efforts on the front seeming good, it had deflated again by last night. I decided to dismantle it totally to see what the problem was. Turns out it was quite obvious - the tape was not sealed to the rim where it overlapped - the sealant had mostly worked but was under the tape and so affecting the adhesion.

    On attempt number 2 I stripped and cleaned the rim again, and put new tape on (with stretching!). This time I used a wooden peg to rub the tape where it joined, making sure it was properly stuck down everywhere - I realise this is what inflating a tube in overnight would also achieve.

    With the new tape sealed properly it inflated first time and with no leaks from the valve at all. Seems sealed everywhere!

    I feel like I am starting to understand all this tubeless malarkey - it makes a lot more sense when you can learn first hand what works or doesnt work and why.
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