Improving top end power

Hurricane151

I am currently upping my race training and I need to improve my top end. I feel i have built up a decent based and long interval power but I would like to improve my 5s 15s and 30s top end power to help finish races off and close down attacks etc.

Can any provide some advice on sessions specifically designed to improve this power? I am currently peaking at around 1150w over a 5s interval (which is pretty poor for my p/w) and I would look to be getting nearer the 1300-1500w range if that is possible.

Do i need weight training to help with this or can it be done purely on the bike?

Any advice suggestions would be appreciated.

jibberjim

Hurricane151 wrote:

Can any provide some advice on sessions specifically designed to improve this power? I am currently peaking at around 1150w over a 5s interval (which is pretty poor for my p/w) and I would look to be getting nearer the 1300-1500w range if that is possible.

1500 is a lot for anyone at any weight... weight in fact doesn't matter huge amounts in max power, but there are pro tour sprinters who don't put out 1500w and Cavendish claims he doesn't get over 1400 in a sprint finish. It's highly genetically/epigenetic/early development biased and you don't get to make huge changes to the number with training.

In any case, 1150 is more than enough to compete in sprints, and you'll see next to no return from imroving that number (and it's really difficult to do in any case) and almost certainly a drop or a lost opportunity to improve as you'r forced to defocus on areas that can be improved.

Sprinting is not about max power, even more so at 2/3/4 levels where the very fastest naturally talented are already higher up, it's about technique, gearing, knowledge, experience etc. and focusing your time on training those (ie by racing or hooking up with guys who know what they're doing) will provide a lot more return than suppressing your endurance training (everything over a couple of minutes) simply to move you 50cm closer to the line in the sprint.

imposter2.0

Hurricane151 wrote:

I am currently upping my race training and I need to improve my top end. I feel i have built up a decent based and long interval power but I would like to improve my 5s 15s and 30s top end power to help finish races off and close down attacks etc.

Can any provide some advice on sessions specifically designed to improve this power? I am currently peaking at around 1150w over a 5s interval (which is pretty poor for my p/w) and I would look to be getting nearer the 1300-1500w range if that is possible.

Do i need weight training to help with this or can it be done purely on the bike?

Any advice suggestions would be appreciated.

Have you done any racing yet?

Hurricane151

Imposter wrote:

Have you done any racing yet?

Yes I have had one crit and 1 road race.

imposter2.0

I would work on being able to sustain the power you already have, rather than trying to increase it.

Hurricane151

Imposter wrote:

I would work on being able to sustain the power you already have, rather than trying to increase it.

so what's the best for that? increasing intervals?

imposter2.0

Intervals are usually the answer

But in terms of what specific intervals, a lot will depend on what the weaknesses might have been in the couple of races you've done...

Hurricane151

I would day it was the shorter intervals. I feel pretty strong on efforts over 3/4 minutes but when its a case of catching a break or closing a gap that's when I've had issues.

imposter2.0

Hurricane151 wrote:

I would day it was the shorter intervals. I feel pretty strong on efforts over 3/4 minutes but when its a case of catching a break or closing a gap that's when I've had issues.

If these are issues that you have had in your previous two races - remember how far into the red you were when you couldn't quite catch the break or close the gap? - go out and replicate it in training

okgo

The advice from Jim is good here. 1100 watts isn't bad at all. I have a decent peak (1500) but I would imagine my results would be very similar ifi only had your current peak.

Tom Dean

okgo wrote:

I have a decent peak (1500)

OP - okgo HATES mentioning this so you should be extra grateful for his advice.

ric/rstsport

as others have said there's two aspects to this: the physiological/fitness side and the skills side (knowing whose wheel to be on, gearing, when to make a jump etc). While the latter is exceedingly important and is a skill that can be learnt/improved, i would disagree (a little) with the others. I'd say that building your sprint power can be important (i say can be because i have no real info on you - for some people it's a waste of time). But you should give it a go and try to improve it.

Ric

p.s. it can be done on the bike!

Hurricane151

Ric/RSTSport wrote:

as others have said there's two aspects to this: the physiological/fitness side and the skills side (knowing whose wheel to be on, gearing, when to make a jump etc). While the latter is exceedingly important and is a skill that can be learnt/improved, i would disagree (a little) with the others. I'd say that building your sprint power can be important (i say can be because i have no real info on you - for some people it's a waste of time). But you should give it a go and try to improve it.

Ric

p.s. it can be done on the bike!

Amy recommendations. I have done a few 5x5x5 (5sec on, 5sec off, 5 intervals per set) but this might not be the best use of my time.

okgo

Tom Dean wrote:

okgo wrote:

I have a decent peak (1500)

OP - okgo HATES mentioning this so you should be extra grateful for his advice.

Thought I'd qualify my advice/agreement with what Jim was saying. Rather that than be told what to do by a total no hoper afterall.

moscowflyer

okgo wrote:

Tom Dean wrote:

okgo wrote:

I have a decent peak (1500)

OP - okgo HATES mentioning this so you should be extra grateful for his advice.

Thought I'd qualify my advice/agreement with what Jim was saying. Rather that than be told what to do by a total no hoper afterall.

ric/rstsport

Hurricane151 wrote:

Ric/RSTSport wrote:

as others have said there's two aspects to this: the physiological/fitness side and the skills side (knowing whose wheel to be on, gearing, when to make a jump etc). While the latter is exceedingly important and is a skill that can be learnt/improved, i would disagree (a little) with the others. I'd say that building your sprint power can be important (i say can be because i have no real info on you - for some people it's a waste of time). But you should give it a go and try to improve it.

Ric

p.s. it can be done on the bike!

Amy recommendations. I have done a few 5x5x5 (5sec on, 5sec off, 5 intervals per set) but this might not be the best use of my time.

there's a variety of things you can do, but everything from standing starts, through to flying sprints, seated sprints, standing & seated sprints. short sprints (5 sec), longer one. very long 'sprints'.

if what you're trying to do is build your sprint power then i'd do the sprints with a lot of recovery time between them (minutes).

ric

furrag

One of my 51kg clients recently acquired my services to help coach him as he was being scalped in sprints at every opportunity. Within 4 weeks of coaching, I increased his top end by 30%.



So I looked at his power data, and he was very jittery in accelerating. Looking at his power balance between his left/right leg, he he had a whopping 70:30 bias in favour of his left leg. When I asked him if he had any injuries, there were none that he could think of.

So we went to Look Mum no Hands for a coffee and I had him tell me his sporting history from his childhood, and that's when the bombshell dropped. Every year he was picked by his school to compete in Hop Scotch in the sports day. These single-legged plyometric drills created an abundance of Type II muscle fibres in his left, while his right didn't develop. He didn't understand this, so as a metaphor, I showed him the Youtube clip of Danny Devito in Twins telling Arnold Schwarzenegger "All the sh*t went into me". You could see it in his face. The penny dropped.

Rather than dwell on him cussing Mrs. Johnson through his primary school days, we sought to improve his right leg power. He said he would rather do on the bike workouts, so for his commutes and to give adequate rest, I made him buy my second hand motorbike with a very stiff and worn kick starter. It takes him about 2 minutes to start, and stalls quite a lot at lights he tells me. He recognises the training benefit of this though as the results speak for themselves.

Drop by at Look mum no hands some time and I'll help you out too. I'm easy to find. I'm the one without a beard (yeah, I'm male too).

imposter2.0

post of the year (so far)...

alihisgreat

i don't even.... :?:

displacedaussie

I don't think Furrag was enjoying the thread so he made up a little story.

mr_ribble

Tom Dean wrote:

okgo wrote:

I have a decent peak (1500)

OP - okgo HATES mentioning this so you should be extra grateful for his advice.

Tom...I can only feel a sense of bitterness and anger in your words. I may be joining the dots here, but I assume that you have lost out to okgo on more than one occasion. Have you thought about hiring Furrag, his words sound wise and his methodology seems logical.

okgo

I wouldn't hire furrag, those 51kg figures in that graph are I reckon his own, and he's a big boy ;-)

mr_ribble

Oh really. You're joking right? He said that given he could get circa 1000w out of a 51kg specimen, at 102kg then he could see me reaching in excess of 2000w as long as I stuck to his plan.

So I decided not to buy the Cervelo and instead spent the 2k on the upfront coaching fees. Do you think I should be asking for my money back?

Tom Dean

Mr_Ribble wrote:

Tom Dean wrote:

okgo wrote:

I have a decent peak (1500)

OP - okgo HATES mentioning this so you should be extra grateful for his advice.

Tom...I can only feel a sense of bitterness and anger in your words. I may be joining the dots here, but I assume that you have lost out to okgo on more than one occasion. Have you thought about hiring Furrag, his words sound wise and his methodology seems logical.

no, but I'm sure I would if we had raced together. If I had okgo's ability I would be just as pleased with myself as he is - I might try to avoid drawing attention to it at every opportunity though Certainly no hard feelings but a little envy for sure!

What does Furrrag advise if both legs are equally crap?

Wrath Rob

Mr_Ribble wrote:

Oh really. You're joking right? He said that given he could get circa 1000w out of a 51kg specimen, at 102kg then he could see me reaching in excess of 2000w as long as I stuck to his plan.

So I decided not to buy the Cervelo and instead spent the 2k on the upfront coaching fees. Do you think I should be asking for my money back?

That's the funniest thing I've read all day. There's no way you're 102kgs

You'll still leave me for dust though :oops:

furrag

Tom Dean wrote:

What does Furrrag advise if both legs are equally crap?

Golf.

Angry3rdCatScot

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