Turbo advice (Cyclops)

handful

The OH has decided she wants a turbo as well and I was happy to buy another Elite Crono Fluid Elastogel which I have been pretty impressed with seeing I only paid £130 for it in a Wiggle sale. I was shocked to find out it's now £189 which puts it closer to the point where I may her let her have my old one and get a better one for myself

I have narrowed it down to 3 but the Kurt Kinetic is just too much money for me to justify really so that leaves me with the Cyclops Fluid2 vs Jet Fluid Pro. The other complication is the Fluid2 is £50 cheaper from this site http://www.thecyclewarehouse.co.uk/700co9302f.html than the Fluid Pro is from this site http://www.westbrookcycles.co.uk/training-energy-c93/turbo-trainers-c14/cycleops-jet-fluid-pro-trainer-inc-dvd-2013-p208789?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_term=cycleops-jet-fluid-pro-trainer-inc-dvd-2013&utm_campaign=product%20listing%20ads

The first site looks pretty amateurish and slightly suspicious to me but I like the price of the Fluid 2! Is there £50 difference between these 2 turbos and has anyone used the Cycle Warehouse website before? Also, I notice the Fluid2 is a beta profile on Trainer Road so maybe another reason to go with the Pro?

Thanks for any advice

Hollow-legs

I have a CYCLOPS fluid 2 turbo trainer ,,,before that i had for a short period of time the cheaper cyclops mag trainer,,,the fluid is miles better than the cheap mag trainer ,,,the fluid has so much more realistic resistance IMHO?
I use the fluid 2 on trainerroad ,,yes it is in beta ,It works ,,,and i have good training sessions ,well as far as i am concerned ,but i really have slight doubt if the power curve on the fluid 2 beta is right?
If i could turn back time and in hindsight ,,when i brought the fluid 2 i knew nothing about trainer-road,turbos,If i could start again i would buy KURT KINETIC or CYCLOPS jet fluid pro ,,probadly buying the KK !!
This decision is based upon trainer- road,The KK is the most preferred trainer and i believe TR was developed with the KK ,correct me if im wrong people :?

If you cannot afford a KK then i would go for the cyclops fluid pro

handful

Thanks Hollow-legs. I think the Jet Fluid Pro looks like the winner for me although I take the point about the KK being the recommended TR turbo. I've been pleasantly surprised with the consistency of the power curve on my Elite to be honest and would probably have stuck with another if I could have got one for the same price I paid before but for another £50 I think I can justify the Jet Fluid Pro to myself better than £100 for the KK.

I may leave it for a week and see what Easter sale bargains are to be had for the KK and take it from there.

Garryboy

I have jet fluid pro and love it. Its pretty consistent on trainer road too.

handful

Thanks Garryboy.

Does anyone know of a cheaper price than the £239.99 that I found in the link above? Seems a pretty decent price but they do seem to get heavily discounted at times.

handful

I did my first session this morning on my new Jet Fluid Pro 8) and thought I was going to die.

I thought I was getting a very consistent curve from my Elite and it felt right when I compared the wattage /effort to the speed I would have been expecting according to my Garmin, something around 200w for 20mph. Now I have to push more like 210-215 to register 20mph and the effort required in comparison is far tougher. I actually checked to make sure my brakes weren't binding!

I know that FTP isn't important, just consistency so I'm not too bothered but I'm going to have to do another test which I reckon will bring my ftp down by 30 or so. I feel like I've just gone and bought a new carbon wheelset and discovered they make me 2 mph slower.

Has anyone alse had a similar experience with a JFP?

Garryboy

If you are using Trainer Road, make sure you have selected the profile 'Cyclops Jet Fluid Pro [powertap]' - that one is more accurate (tested with a powertap. The one with [Cyclops] at the end is the curve supplied by Cyclops, but its way under - in my experience to the tune of approx. 50 (virtual) watts.

Here is my session from tonight with the jet fluid pro...
http://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/271720

The pain of watching/supporting Scotland made the session feel easy :-)

Garryboy

Oh - another thing, tyre pressure (PSI & against the flywheel) - try and keep both constant. I tend to use 100 PSI and move the flywheel until it's just barely touching the rear wheel, then clamp in. I guess it doesn't matter what you do, as long as it's same each time.

handful

Thanks Garryboy. I did have the right profile selected but I just followed your instruction on the clamping, just touching the tyre and that has made a massive difference to the resistance. I think I had it too tight before and it was indnting the tyre far too much. I didn't have a TR session connected but I will give it a proper try tomorrow.

I did think it seemed tight because my Elite just uses body weight to contact the roller, hopefully I won't have too much trouble getting back to my previous ftp now! Thanks for your help.

Garryboy

No probs, its hard enough without jamming it hard against your tyre!
Have fun!

Hollow-legs

handful wrote:

Thanks Garryboy. I did have the right profile selected but I just followed your instruction on the clamping, just touching the tyre and that has made a massive difference to the resistance. I think I had it too tight before and it was indnting the tyre far too much. I didn't have a TR session connected but I will give it a proper try tomorrow.

I did think it seemed tight because my Elite just uses body weight to contact the roller, hopefully I won't have too much trouble getting back to my previous ftp now! Thanks for your help.

This is very interesting ! I have a cyclops fluid pro 2 with the resistance unit pushed hard on to my rear tire ,so it make a good 1/4 indent ,i think i turn the tighting lever four times then lock up the handle into place..I mainly use the front large ring and large rear cog for warm-up ,recovery periods ..using the gears to increase power wattage !
I had a real doubt when starting trainerroad and doing the 8 minute test if the fluid pro 2 beta power curve pofile was right .Does anyone else use a cyclops fluid pro 2 on TR and how do you set up the trainer etc....

I have seen a few profiles on TR with members that use a FP2 and the power graphs /wattage FTP seem pretty low !


Thats the problem with TR everbodys set-up is slightly different although it does do a good job of standardising different trainer power curves...

Garryboy

Hollow-legs wrote:

handful wrote:

Thanks Garryboy. I did have the right profile selected but I just followed your instruction on the clamping, just touching the tyre and that has made a massive difference to the resistance. I think I had it too tight before and it was indnting the tyre far too much. I didn't have a TR session connected but I will give it a proper try tomorrow.

I did think it seemed tight because my Elite just uses body weight to contact the roller, hopefully I won't have too much trouble getting back to my previous ftp now! Thanks for your help.

This is very interesting ! I have a cyclops fluid pro 2 with the resistance unit pushed hard on to my rear tire ,so it make a good 1/4 indent ,i think i turn the tighting lever four times then lock up the handle into place..I mainly use the front large ring and large rear cog for warm-up ,recovery periods ..using the gears to increase power wattage !
I had a real doubt when starting trainerroad and doing the 8 minute test if the fluid pro 2 beta power curve pofile was right .Does anyone else use a cyclops fluid pro 2 on TR and how do you set up the trainer etc....

I have seen a few profiles on TR with members that use a FP2 and the power graphs /wattage FTP seem pretty low !


Thats the problem with TR everbodys set-up is slightly different although it does do a good job of standardising different trainer power curves...

With the jet fluid pro, there is no tightening level, you push the 'flywheel' against your rear tyre by hand - then lock in into place with the big yellow lever. Locking it into place increases pressure on the tyre, hence why I only have it lightly touching prior to this.

I wouldn't get too hung up on whether the power figures are accurate vs real life Watts - just ensure your set up is consistent and repeatable. That way you will still be able to gauge improvement, which is the important thing!

Hollow-legs

Yeah! I know i should not get hung up on power ,,its a macho thing ,,,As for the tension on the fluid pro 2 ,you can adjust the position ,contact area by turning the yellow locking handle to move the resistance unit forward or backward..then push up the yellow handle to lock into place? This is what i meant by four turns ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2JPGB0CWCE

Maybe i should untighten mine a bit ,if i have it set up wrong :?

handful

Didn't get time to do a TR test tonight but did just crank up to 200 and found that much more in line with my last turbo in terms of effort required.

It's a relief because on the one effort I had with Wheeler was so bad I couldn't even keep up with the rest period between intervals. :lol

Have a look if you fancy a laugh!
http://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/270778

I did the first part on the powertap setting and then thought I must have got it round the wrong way and swapped to the Cyclops profile. Now back on powertap

Garryboy

Hollow-legs wrote:

Yeah! I know i should not get hung up on power ,,its a macho thing ,,,As for the tension on the fluid pro 2 ,you can adjust the position ,contact area by turning the yellow locking handle to move the resistance unit forward or backward..then push up the yellow handle to lock into place? This is what i meant by four turns ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2JPGB0CWCE

Maybe i should untighten mine a bit ,if i have it set up wrong :?

Ah, ok - on the jet fluid pro you dont turn the yellow handle clockwise to move the resistance unit closer to the tyre, you just move the whole lot by hand. I do this so the flywheel is just touching the rear tyre, then rotate the yellow lever a quarter turn c/wise then up, which clamps it in place. As long as your tyre doesnt slip when using it, its tight enough!

handful

I did the 20 minute test again this morning with a 'lighter' clamp which just forms an indent on the tyre and what a difference! http://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/273826 I didn't detect any tyre slip or anything so I guess this was right according to the powertap power curve on TR.

Unrealistically high I think although I know that doesn't matter as long as I get consistent results here on in. When I compare it to my last test on the Elite http://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/258331

My HR stats suggest I maybe didn't put quite as much into this morning's test although it didn't feel like it at the time! It does worry me a little that moving the bike on and off may challenge how targeted the results are going to be if a marginal difference in clamping pressure can produce such dramatically different results, the Elite was very easy in this respect because it was purely bike and bodyweight that put the pressure on the roller and there was no clamping required at all.

Also, I noticed the speed on my Garmin when cranking out 260 watts was around 19mph whereas I used to get 20mph with 200w on the Elite. A huge difference with the Elite figure possibly more realistic in my opinion?

I am pleased with the JFP and the way it feels and can justify the extra £48 it cost me over the current Wiggle price for the Elite which is £190 but I only paid £129 for it when it was on offer around 18 months ago and I think at that price I would say the Elite was better value for money.

Hollow-legs

Good post that HANDFUL ,,,interesting about the power difference ..between the cyclops and elite trainers...It does not really matter about what wattage or power we are putting out as long as its consistent ,the turbo set-up never changes radically from session to session ...wheel contact ,tyre pressure.

I am luckly i have my boardman RACE road bike permenatly set-up on my turbo ,,it never moves ,i check tyre pressure every session!
So my results are consistent ,apart from my performance :? As i said wattage and FTP is something i should not get hung up about ,,,but sometimes i feel a bit of puny when i see guys putting out huge amounts of watts!!!

Garryboy

Hollow-legs wrote:

Good post that HANDFUL ,,,interesting about the power difference ..between the cyclops and elite trainers...It does not really matter about what wattage or power we are putting out as long as its consistent ,the turbo set-up never changes radically from session to session ...wheel contact ,tyre pressure.

I am luckly i have my boardman RACE road bike permenatly set-up on my turbo ,,it never moves ,i check tyre pressure every session!
So my results are consistent ,apart from my performance :? As i said wattage and FTP is something i should not get hung up about ,,,but sometimes i feel a bit of puny when i see guys putting out huge amounts of watts!!!

But are they really - or is the power curve for their trainer more 'generous'?

The frustration I've had is comparing my own efforts when using two different types of trainer;
Cyclops Jet Fluid Pro
Cyclops alu rollers (with and without resistance)

For example - same workout from two trainers;
Jet Fluid Pro
http://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/271720
Rollers with no resistance
http://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/273856

You'll see that my HR for the roller workout was a higher over the two longer intervals, but recorded wattage was much lower. So it was a 'hard' workout, but not according to the IF / TSS rating on TR.

It's gonna happen with different trainers, but it would be good if TR could accomodate this - at the moment everything is based on you using the same trainer all the time.

alihisgreat

handful wrote:

I did the 20 minute test again this morning with a 'lighter' clamp which just forms an indent on the tyre and what a difference! http://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/273826 I didn't detect any tyre slip or anything so I guess this was right according to the powertap power curve on TR.

Unrealistically high I think although I know that doesn't matter as long as I get consistent results here on in. When I compare it to my last test on the Elite http://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/258331

My HR stats suggest I maybe didn't put quite as much into this morning's test although it didn't feel like it at the time! It does worry me a little that moving the bike on and off may challenge how targeted the results are going to be if a marginal difference in clamping pressure can produce such dramatically different results, the Elite was very easy in this respect because it was purely bike and bodyweight that put the pressure on the roller and there was no clamping required at all.

Also, I noticed the speed on my Garmin when cranking out 260 watts was around 19mph whereas I used to get 20mph with 200w on the Elite. A huge difference with the Elite figure possibly more realistic in my opinion?

I am pleased with the JFP and the way it feels and can justify the extra £48 it cost me over the current Wiggle price for the Elite which is £190 but I only paid £129 for it when it was on offer around 18 months ago and I think at that price I would say the Elite was better value for money.

I'm sorry but what makes you think wheel speed has anything to do with power?

Its like comparing power at 20mph up a steep hill with power at 20mph on the flat -> two different turbos mean two different resistance curves related to speed.

Who cares as long as efforts are consistent and repeatable day-to-day?

handful

Presumably all TR does is puts a power curve and compares it to the speed of the wheel (and roller on the turbo) by way of the cadence sensor? And at the same time the Garmin is using the same data to calculate speed? Or am I being thick? I'm not bothered as I said in my post, merely mentioning that I believe 200 watts is probably a more realistic measure of 20 mph on a road ride than something like 270.

alihisgreat

But since you're not actually travelling at 20mph what difference does it make?

you're spinning your legs at 90rpm and putting out x-watts -> that's the important bit.. not how fast the wheel is going.

You should be talking about realism with reference to how it 'feels' i.e. smooth resistance, run-down etc.

handful

No difference at all!!

It's may well be a coincidence that my Elite turbo seems to generate power and wheel speed that I would expect me to be able to produce on a flat road with no wind and generally in line with what I have read to be appropriate to a generally recognised power/speed ratio. The JFP doesn't, that's all, I know it really doesn't matter!

I'm going to check the client TR software for my ride when I get home because you've got me wondering now how they calculate speed compared to my Garmin!!

And the JFP does rolls pretty realistically and runs down far better than the Elite

Garryboy

handful wrote:

No difference at all!!

It's may well be a coincidence that my Elite turbo seems to generate power and wheel speed that I would expect me to be able to produce on a flat road with no wind and generally in line with what I have read to be appropriate to a generally recognised power/speed ratio. The JFP doesn't, that's all, I know it really doesn't matter!

I'm going to check the client TR software for my ride when I get home because you've got me wondering now how they calculate speed compared to my Garmin!!

And the JFP does rolls pretty realistically and runs down far better than the Elite

I think it's calculated the same - based on the wheel size you've input in your profile (on TR or Garmin) x number of times the wheel magnet whizzes past sensor - or something like that!

handful

Yes it is Garryboy, exactly the same. I'm going to convince myself that as the JFP has a TR profile confirmed by a powertap that 247 is my true FTP after all and I'm now much better than I thought I was! :P

Garryboy

handful wrote:

Yes it is Garryboy, exactly the same. I'm going to convince myself that as the JFP has a TR profile confirmed by a powertap that 247 is my true FTP after all and I'm now much better than I thought I was! :P

Works for me :-)