£1200 and a Sora groupset...

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Comments

  • Gabbo
    Gabbo Posts: 864
    You misunderstood what I meant. I meant people do not want Sora or Tiagra with a Tarmac frame because they ignorantly believe that Sora and Tiagra are entry level components. A little less ignorance and you'd then realise that these groupsets are actually fairly good, but of course not amazing.

    The market makes us all ignorant e.g weight of frame/component. I'm as guilty as most in this sense as I'm debating one frame over another due to minimal weight loss and so called lateral stiffness...
  • jordan_217
    jordan_217 Posts: 2,580
    Actually, looking at the specs of the in greater detail. I'd buy the cheaper one. Both bikes are cutting corners on the spec, neither has a full Sora/105 groupset. IMO, the only benefit of the 105 'equipped' version would be the shifters.

    So for me buy the standard Tarmac and:

    1. Run the components into the ground and upgrade them with something that takes your fancy.
    2. Strip and sell them while new to help fund an upgrade (which it will be).
    “Training is like fighting with a gorilla. You don’t stop when you’re tired. You stop when the gorilla is tired.”
  • Camcycle1974
    Camcycle1974 Posts: 1,356
    Coach H wrote:
    Camcycle1974 wrote:
    It's a good frame as it is made by Giant!

    Are you sure? Specialized frames used to be made by Merida.

    Could well be Merida. Point being they are not made by specialized!
  • ianwilliams
    ianwilliams Posts: 257
    Camcycle1974 wrote:
    Could well be Merida. Point being they are not made by specialized!

    So if Specialized don't make Specialized, what do Specialized make?
  • Coach H
    Coach H Posts: 1,092
    ianwilliams wrote:
    Camcycle1974 wrote:
    Could well be Merida. Point being they are not made by specialized!

    So if Specialized don't make Specialized, what do Specialized make?

    Specialized don't actually make anything. They are really just a marketing brand. All research and manufacture done by OEM's in Taiwan and China (as with plenty of other cycling brands)
    Coach H. (Dont ask me for training advice - 'It's not about the bike')
  • Coach H
    Coach H Posts: 1,092
    edited March 2013
    Double post
    Coach H. (Dont ask me for training advice - 'It's not about the bike')
  • Grill
    Grill Posts: 5,610
    Camcycle1974 wrote:
    Coach H wrote:
    Camcycle1974 wrote:
    It's a good frame as it is made by Giant!

    Are you sure? Specialized frames used to be made by Merida.

    Could well be Merida. Point being they are not made by specialized!

    Merida own 49% of Specialized, so saying the aren't manufactured by their owner is incorrect. They have 5 fabs; Taiwan, China (3), and Germany.
    English Cycles V3 | Cervelo P5 | Cervelo T4 | Trek Domane Koppenberg
  • Coach H
    Coach H Posts: 1,092
    Grill wrote:
    Camcycle1974 wrote:
    Coach H wrote:
    Camcycle1974 wrote:
    It's a good frame as it is made by Giant!

    Are you sure? Specialized frames used to be made by Merida.

    Could well be Merida. Point being they are not made by specialized!

    Merida own 49% of Specialized, so saying the aren't manufactured by their owner is incorrect. They have 5 fabs; Taiwan, China (3), and Germany.

    Yes, technically correct. Mike Synyard's company do not manufacture anything (but his investors do)
    How about that? :wink:
    Coach H. (Dont ask me for training advice - 'It's not about the bike')
  • shaw8670
    shaw8670 Posts: 264
    Why not get a carbon 105 equipped Ribble for £1150? Is the Specialized frame going to be that much better?
    Greetings from the wet and windy North west
  • Grill
    Grill Posts: 5,610
    shaw8670 wrote:
    Why not get a carbon 105 equipped Ribble for £1150? Is the Specialized frame going to be that much better?

    Yes.
    English Cycles V3 | Cervelo P5 | Cervelo T4 | Trek Domane Koppenberg
  • rolf_f
    rolf_f Posts: 16,015
    shaw8670 wrote:
    Why not get a carbon 105 equipped Ribble for £1150? Is the Specialized frame going to be that much better?

    No. :wink:
    Faster than a tent.......
  • skyblue337
    skyblue337 Posts: 135
    Coach H wrote:
    Specialized don't actually make anything. They are really just a marketing brand. All research and manufacture done by OEM's in Taiwan and China (as with plenty of other cycling brands)

    Do Specialized really not do the R&D on their frames?
  • Grill
    Grill Posts: 5,610
    skyblue337 wrote:
    Coach H wrote:
    Specialized don't actually make anything. They are really just a marketing brand. All research and manufacture done by OEM's in Taiwan and China (as with plenty of other cycling brands)

    Do Specialized really not do the R&D on their frames?

    They do as do pretty much all the big names. Even the carbon layups they use are propriety, it's just implemented in a fab.
    English Cycles V3 | Cervelo P5 | Cervelo T4 | Trek Domane Koppenberg
  • duckson
    duckson Posts: 961
    The Ribble bikes do get very good reviews so they cant be all that bad, plenty of options to spec a Gran Fondo / Sportive Bianco on the bikebuilder (or special bikebuilder for slightly less money) to your own budget.
    Cheers, Stu
  • Grill
    Grill Posts: 5,610
    Look inside the seat tube of a Ribble and then look at a Tarmac. The difference is night and day. Not saying that Ribbles are bad, just not in the same league.
    English Cycles V3 | Cervelo P5 | Cervelo T4 | Trek Domane Koppenberg
  • skyblue337
    skyblue337 Posts: 135
    Grill wrote:

    They do as do pretty much all the big names. Even the carbon layups they use are propriety, it's just implemented in a fab.

    Yeah that's what I thought - that Specialized do the R&D and outsource the manufacturing. The previous quote implied they didn't even do the research.
  • Headhuunter
    Headhuunter Posts: 6,494
    ianwilliams wrote:
    nochekmate wrote:
    To the OP

    Whoever gave you the impression that bikes are becoming ever more affordable?


    Its just something I see written in magazines from time to time.

    Is the tarmac frame that good? To counterbalance the sora yet still be a decent bike for that price, it would have to be an astonishing frame.

    Bikes and bike bits are definitely becoming more expensive. Back in 2007 I bought a Focus Cayo, full carbon frame with 105 group for 799 quid. Yes it was in the sale but you'd never get that these days. Back than it was pretty standard to get Ultegra on a bike at 1200-1500 quid....
    Do not write below this line. Office use only.
  • Coach H
    Coach H Posts: 1,092
    edited March 2013
    skyblue337 wrote:
    Grill wrote:

    They do as do pretty much all the big names. Even the carbon layups they use are propriety, it's just implemented in a fab.

    Yeah that's what I thought - that Specialized do the R&D and outsource the manufacturing. The previous quote implied they didn't even do the research.

    And how do you suppose Spesh do this R&D when all the expertise is with Merida? Spesh engineers and designers will work closely with Merida and ultimately sign off all the tech but I would be very surprised if they do any more than suggest the type of tech they want Merida to develop.

    Absolutely nothing wrong with this and IME the vast majority of high volume brands that outsourse the manufacture let the manufacturers do the R&D. If this does not happen you get situation like the Cervelo R5CA where Cervelo did the R&D and then had to do the manufacture themselves. Not because they wanted to but because their Chinese manufacturers could not physically build it with their equipment and technicians. Trickle down technology will all be about the OEMs working out how they can make something in their factories that gets as close as possible to (for them) the external R&D. This was how we got the R5VWD, the frame that the OEM had done the R&D for based on the R5CA "concept" and therefore could actually make.
    Coach H. (Dont ask me for training advice - 'It's not about the bike')
  • ianwilliams
    ianwilliams Posts: 257
    Grill wrote:
    Look inside the seat tube of a Ribble and then look at a Tarmac. The difference is night and day. Not saying that Ribbles are bad, just not in the same league.

    So if you were to add Ultegra and a set of £200-250 wheels to this, how much weight could you look to shed off it?
  • Grill
    Grill Posts: 5,610
    300g+ for the gruppo and probably 200-300g from the wheels.
    English Cycles V3 | Cervelo P5 | Cervelo T4 | Trek Domane Koppenberg
  • ianwilliams
    ianwilliams Posts: 257
    Grill wrote:
    300g+ for the gruppo and probably 200-300g from the wheels.

    Cheers Grill.
  • cycleclinic
    cycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    What exactly is wrong with Sora, sure it a little heavier than 105 but not enough to make a difference. Sora shifts well and is cheap to maintain so what exactly is wrong with. The most important part of any bike is the frames, wheels and tyres. Get those right and you will enjoy the bike.

    Sora, campag veloce e.t.c are more than enough for nearly all riders. Entry level does not mean inferior. Also saving 600g of the bike will not make any difference to way you ride. If you want to go all weight weenie over it you will have consider changing almost every component.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • rolf_f
    rolf_f Posts: 16,015
    Grill wrote:
    Look inside the seat tube of a Ribble and then look at a Tarmac. The difference is night and day. Not saying that Ribbles are bad, just not in the same league.

    Ok, done that (with the Ribble). What am I meant to be seeing? I can see a nice smooth cf tube but that's all. Should I be seeing flashing lights or a reproduction of The Last Supper? :wink:
    Faster than a tent.......
  • cal_stewart
    cal_stewart Posts: 1,840
    stop messing around.

    http://www.canyon.com/_en/roadbikes/bike.html?b=3083
    eating parmos since 1981

    Canyon Ultimate CF SLX Aero 09
    Cervelo P5 EPS
    www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=40044&t=13038799
  • ianwilliams
    ianwilliams Posts: 257
    Cal_Stewart wrote:
    stop messing around.

    http://www.canyon.com/_en/roadbikes/bike.html?b=3083

    Well, that's the thing. Even with the above modifications to that Tarmac, you're still looking at hefty bike for a total of £2,000 (!).

    When people say Specialised are a marketing company, it worries me. Its either good marketing (market research fuelling quality product design), dodgy marketing (inflating the perceived value of a product through sponsorship and product placement), or somewhere between the two.

    I still want to find and try one. But I don't understand what is so great about the Tarmac frame - at the weight it is - to justify that cost with that equipment.
  • kirkee
    kirkee Posts: 369
    my take...and Ive said it before, dont buy a Specialized, far too many on the road already (one less car- one less Specialized, please)
    Caveat - I buy and ride cheap, however, I reserve the right to advise on expensive kit that I have never actually used and possibly never will
  • dwanes
    dwanes Posts: 954
    kirkee wrote:
    my take...and Ive said it before, dont buy a Specialized, far too many on the road already (one less car- one less Specialized, please)
    I see more Ribble bikes than any other bike make on the road.
  • kirkee
    kirkee Posts: 369
    You see the occasional Ribble where I live (at least buyers can personalize every component when buying a Ribble). Id guess 7 out of 10 bikes I see on the road are Specialized. The first bike I saw this morning on my way to work was - a Specialized. I didnt want to see it but I had to keep my eyes open while driving my van.
    My sunday ride- two riders there riding with IDENTICAL model Specialized Tarmacs.......................
    Caveat - I buy and ride cheap, however, I reserve the right to advise on expensive kit that I have never actually used and possibly never will

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