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The Crudders 2013 Formula 1 Thread

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  • jairajjairaj Posts: 3,009
    What's the reason for Williams' lack of form? Seems like they haven't really been anywhere near the front since they had the BMW engines.

    Is the engine? Or have they lost a few key employees and need to rebuild the team?
  • I dont know too much about that era but wasnt it Newey that brought them the success they had? With the active suspension and traction control?
  • Antm81Antm81 Posts: 1,406
    Newey was a big part of that era but I believe he left before they stopped winning races. I think a lot of it comes from money now, they don't have a huge amount of sponsorship or have red bull / ferrari's backing from the parent company.
  • lawmanlawman Posts: 6,868
    Taking away the exhaust effect has huge implications on the competitive order. Red Bull have had the best system for the last few years, and it's no coincidence that in 2012 after they banned the trick ECU's it took a while for them to get back to the top, a massive upgrade in Singapore effectivly won them the title, take that away and it was Alonso's to throw away. Likewise in 2011 in the one race the exhaust blowing was banned Ferrari won their only race of the year. There is no doubt Red Bull's use of exhaust gases has been one of the main reasons behind their competitiveness. Again I attribute this to Newey and his sheer genius. Many comment on how Vettel is able to extract the exhausts to full effect and has adapted his style to suit better than Webber or anyone else, but it's clear that Hamilton, Alonson and the others just don't have the car underneath them to even have a chance to adapt. The new regs are gonna shake it up for sure and if there is any time to break Vettels streak, next year is the time to do it. Red Bull admit they are behind they are behind with their 2014 car, whereas others, such as McLaren have been working on theirs pretty much full time since the summer break. The last time a team or teams were behind before a big regulation change? McLaren and Ferrari in 2009... and we all know how bad those cars were to start with. I'm backing Hamilton or Alonso next season, once Hamilton can get the brake feel he is after, understandably after switching teams after so many years at McLaren, he will make mincemeat of Rosberg.

  • lawmanlawman Posts: 6,868
    I think Redbull will benefit from next years exhaust regulations. Theres no more Coanda system, the exhaust must come through the centre line of the car, and only one outlet is allowed. This will probably bring exhaust blown diffusers back in, and if i remember correctly, Redbull were very successful with that.

    I think you're a little confused. The exhaust regs have changed to stop any kind of blowing. The exhaust blowing in 2011 used exhausts that were wide and flat running along the floor of the car to maximise the gases being blown onto the diffuser, combined with the trick ECU's which kept the gases flowing even when the driver was off throttle to allow a more consistent level of downforce. In 2012 and 2013, the Coanda effect worked in a similar way but the effects are much more limited. The act of blowing gases on the diffuser is still the same, but the way they did is using the shape of the channels around the exhaust to channel the air towards the diffuser rather than blowing directly on it as in 2011. The teams are basically "sticking" the exhaust gases to this surface so it is redirected towards the diffuser, despite the exhausts pointing upwards and away from it. Red Bull have the best system at doing this and Vettel's driving style in flooring it out of corners gets the exhaust gases flowing and giving him more downforce. In essence what he does is counter-intuitive, when the car starts to slide applying more power actually gives you more downforce, unlike in 2011 when the gases were being used constantly, not just when the driver is off the throttle. The new regs will stop this all together, so it will be almost impossible to get the exhaust to blow on the diffuser.

    This is from autosport.
    The new regulations for the 1.6-litre turbocharged V6 engine era mandate a single tailpipe of fixed dimensions, which must exit 170-185mm behind the rear axle line and 350-500mm above the floor.

    With the circular end of the final 150mm of tailpipe having to point upwards at an angle of five degrees, any aero effect from the exhaust will be hugely restricted.

    Bodywork is also banned in the area behind the tailpipe's axis, preventing vanes or winglets from diverting the plume towards the rear wing or diffuser.

    One dispensation is that the exhaust can be offset from the car's centre-line by 100mm, which could allow the retention of the monkey seat winglet.

  • VWsurfbumVWsurfbum Posts: 7,881
    Will be an interesting off season. Lots of changes etc.
    will be interesting to see who does what with their aero designs, thats where i feel the Williams have been struggling.

    And i want a monkey seat!
    Kazza the Tranny
    Now for sale Fatty
  • lawmanlawman Posts: 6,868
    VWsurfbum wrote:
    Will be an interesting off season. Lots of changes etc.
    will be interesting to see who does what with their aero designs, thats where i feel the Williams have been struggling.

    And i want a monkey seat!

    Williams tested and raced in Abu Dhabi without their coanda effect exhaust with 2014 in mind and were actually faster and performed better. If you don't know how to use the technology it can hinder you more than it helps. Again it highlights just how much of an asset Newey is. It's going to be very, very interesting next year. Renault also have a tendency to make ropey engines every time there's a reg change, so I imagine we're going to see alot more engines blow up than we do now.

  • VWsurfbumVWsurfbum Posts: 7,881
    Well their cheese eating surrender monkey's what do you expect! LOL :lol:
    Kazza the Tranny
    Now for sale Fatty
  • Sorry for my incorrect info on the exhausts. I havent had a look at the full regulations list, i just clicked on a link that Renault Sport F1 pasted on facebook, it showed the regulations that regarded the engines for next year, so all it said was that it was one outlet along the centre line of the car. Thanks for the correction Lawman.

    Its a bit weird with the renault engines because they break down alot in some cars and less in others. Redbull has had a ton of problems with the engines, especially webbers cars (but they probably use Vettels 2nd hand parts on his car) then you have Lotus who have probably one of the most reliable cars on the grid, especially with the engine. You do get the odd fault but that is a given on an engine that does 18000 RPM for 60 odd laps, sometimes for 2-3 races i would imagine (RPM is also reduced next year BTW, 15000). Caterham also use a Renault engine of course but i dont remember the last time they had an engine failure.

    If you think you hate the french, try playing call of duty on the xbox with them...
  • lawmanlawman Posts: 6,868
    Red Bull's reliability issues originate from how tightly packaged the car is. The engines themselves nowadays are pretty reliable because the 2.4l V8's have been around since 2006, but because Newey doesn't want to compromise the aero of the cars they can run into issues with cooling simply because the car is packaged so tightly and the gubbins inside have little space to breath. Lotus and others have sort of compromised between aero and absolute cooling reliability.

    Next year we'll have unproven engines, bigger KERS units, turbo's and all sorts of new cooling units that need to keep everything cool as possible. I would expect the cars won't look as neat as they do this year around the engine cover, there's a lot more stuff in there this year despite the smaller v6 engines. With so little testing these days as well there's gonna be a lot of engines go bang next season.

  • Has anyone told pirelli to naff off yet?

    Oh and bring back re-fueling!

    Tyres and fuel are things that can be tweeked to wach individual race... I like not knowing what fuel level people are running!
    Fuel long and drive the tyres eco or fuel short and tear a set of tyres to shreds!
  • tlw1tlw1 Posts: 19,955
    Has anyone told pirelli to naff off yet?

    Oh and bring back re-fueling!

    Tyres and fuel are things that can be tweeked to wach individual race... I like not knowing what fuel level people are running!
    Fuel long and drive the tyres eco or fuel short and tear a set of tyres to shreds!

    nail & head
  • VWsurfbumVWsurfbum Posts: 7,881
    Agreed.
    I also liked one lap qualifying but just means different challenges.
    I hope the tyres are more consistent next year so its about racing not saving
    Kazza the Tranny
    Now for sale Fatty
  • jairajjairaj Posts: 3,009
    yeah I missed the race day excitement of trying to guess who has genuine good pace and who is just lightly fuelled. Also not a fan of the driving conservatively to save the tyres. I think if they bought back refuelling and limited the size of the fuel tank so teams were forced to make multiple stops then the teams would have little incentive to look after the tyres. They would have to come in sooner or later for a fuel stop so might as well use up all the tyre. The FIA could still have their total fuel limit but now the teams can decide how to divide up the allocated fuel allowance. I see it as a win win situation.
  • has struggled to match team-mate Jenson Button this season, scoring 35 points to the Briton's 60

    And yet I'm sure his race day lap times have been faster than Buttons.
  • Kowalski675Kowalski675 Posts: 4,412
    VWsurfbum wrote:
    Will be an interesting off season.

    Can't be much less interesting than when they're racing, lol. I love motorsports, but F1 = snoozefest.
  • VWsurfbumVWsurfbum Posts: 7,881
    VWsurfbum wrote:
    Will be an interesting off season.

    Can't be much less interesting than when they're racing, lol. I love motorsports, but F1 = snoozefest.
    Agreed this year i've struggled to keep interested.

    But this is interesting!
    http://www.autosport.com/news/report.ph ... ostpopular
    Kazza the Tranny
    Now for sale Fatty
  • Switched off after the first two races and started watching GP and WSB,BSB and DTM ,will make an effort to watch whats left of the season ?,or i may just go to Wales and watch the rally and take the bike :)
  • VWsurfbumVWsurfbum Posts: 7,881
    Well Magnussen has been sworn in at McClaren.
    Kazza the Tranny
    Now for sale Fatty
  • lawmanlawman Posts: 6,868
    jairaj wrote:
    yeah I missed the race day excitement of trying to guess who has genuine good pace and who is just lightly fuelled. Also not a fan of the driving conservatively to save the tyres. I think if they bought back refuelling and limited the size of the fuel tank so teams were forced to make multiple stops then the teams would have little incentive to look after the tyres. They would have to come in sooner or later for a fuel stop so might as well use up all the tyre. The FIA could still have their total fuel limit but now the teams can decide how to divide up the allocated fuel allowance. I see it as a win win situation.

    Refuelling isn't the issue and it won't solve the problems.

  • It does get a bit boring sometimes, but i make an effort to watch every single race. The only one i missed was when i was on holiday and F1 wasnt covered.

    BTCC is really really good fun to watch, i love watching that.

    BSB is good too. I would follow most motorsports if they were shown on the telly, but i dont have Sky TV or anything else so i just stick to those.
  • jairajjairaj Posts: 3,009
    lawman wrote:
    Refuelling isn't the issue and it won't solve the problems.

    The refuelling was just a way to force the cars to come for multiple pits stops. If you have to stop for fuel, you might as well burn the tyres up, driving like you stole it. No point coming in for a pit stop with plenty of life left in the tyres.

    FIA tried making the tyres more fragile, but all that did was make people drive like a granny so they could prolong the life of the tyres.

    You need to give the teams an incentive to actually make more stops.
  • This was a brilliant Tweet by Lotus, made me laugh :lol:

    Heikki's back out. And if anyone asks, he's long and hard (for chassis and tyres respectively)
  • shoddyshoddy Posts: 63
    They need to ban the radios.
    Stop the engineers telling the drivers how to drive the car and make them do it all themselves.
  • Tyres and fuel is.

    Oh and getting rid of Ecclestone.
  • Kowalski675Kowalski675 Posts: 4,412
    Heikki's back out. And if anyone asks, he's long and hard

    Your mum would love him.
  • Kowalski675Kowalski675 Posts: 4,412
    Tyres and fuel is.

    Oh and getting rid of Ecclestone.

    No idea what F1 fuel rules are, but fuel restrictions are one of the things ruining Moto GP.
  • VWsurfbumVWsurfbum Posts: 7,881
    William's ;)

    Good to see Botas strutting his stuff this weekend eh ;)

    Bit of another borefest race though :(
    Kazza the Tranny
    Now for sale Fatty
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