Criticism of the Sky train (may contain spoilers)
Comments
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dave milne wrote:isn't this more about having enough domestiques able to ride at high threshold (450W maybe) for a long time, meaning anyone who attacks has to go massively in the red and can't sustain it.
as you say the drafting benefits everyone in the group, it'd more about keeping the pace so high only a "superman" can make a successful attack
That seems very possible. If that is the case though, once the domestiques have fallen away, it's still the best man that tends to win at the top though. I just don't get the insinuation that Froome has an armchair ride to the top because he has a few team-mates sitting on the front for a bit of the climb.
Is the drafting benefit on a steep climb enough that if AN Other could ride the climb at 460W average (to use your example) that he couldn't ride off the front?
I mean that's pretty much what Evans did when he was chasing down Schleck the year he won the Tour.0 -
24kph yes"If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm0
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How I'd love they got rid of any data equipment during the races. Just riding on pure knowledge of your own body and intuition.
The confusion on the Sky riders when they discover after the race, that the wierd feeling in the legs that made them go slow was called lactic acid, would be quite amusing to watch.0 -
It's a good nuanced point phreak is making.
I guess it's not so much for drafting purposes. My guess is that it's more about having someone else worry about setting a decent pace whilst the leader can make tactical decisions. If the leader was isolated, an attack by a rival can lead to panic whereas with a domestique (or two, or three) you can rely on them to up the pace in a measured way in order to try and bring back the attacker (particularly for non-climbers like Wiggins who need to stick to 'x' power output). It's also psychologically easier simply to follow a wheel. Plus there's the subjective element of a 'show of force' and 'strength in numbers' that shouldn't be underestimated.0 -
ratsbeyfus wrote:iainf72 wrote:The only issue is it makes the racing boring.
Didn't look boring to me.PeteMadoc wrote:Today's stage was superb viewing. Not sure what all this is about tbh. If people are worried about the Sky train then why not just ride it until there's 1km to go then attack, or if you can get yourselves organised attack with a few other strong riders a few k out. Rocket science it is not, stop winging and enjoy the race.
Rose tinted glasses have that effect.
Of course it's boring.
It effectively neutralises attacks and worse, the will to attack.
However, as Iain says, it's bloody effective, so we are stuck with it.
At least we have the benefit of the results.
Imagine watching if you aren't a Brit or fan of Sky."Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.0 -
Blazing Saddles wrote:ratsbeyfus wrote:iainf72 wrote:The only issue is it makes the racing boring.
Didn't look boring to me.PeteMadoc wrote:Today's stage was superb viewing. Not sure what all this is about tbh. If people are worried about the Sky train then why not just ride it until there's 1km to go then attack, or if you can get yourselves organised attack with a few other strong riders a few k out. Rocket science it is not, stop winging and enjoy the race.
Rose tinted glasses have that effect.
Of course it's boring.
It effectively neutralises attacks and worse, the will to attack.
However, as Iain says, it's bloody effective, so we are stuck with it.
At least we have the benefit of the results.
Imagine watching if you aren't a Brit or fan of Sky.
It's boring if nobody attacks it, but today they did. I like Nibali was rooting for him today, but watching the final few kilometres today was exciting viewing - not despite the SKY train but because of it. There was a real tactical battle going on there that in my opinion was exciting. Maybe not as exciting as watching the chicken vs contador but hey ho.0 -
Think this is the only serious criticism about Sky's impact on the sport that holds any water: presumably they can afford so many more 450W (whevs) threshold guys than other teams that it takes the climbers out of the GC game.
Not saying it's only about money: when you harness first class brains with a budget to match, money talks....a rare 100% loyal Pro Race poster. A poster boy for the community.0 -
The ball is fully in the other teams' courts to figure out how to combat it. Sky arent lined up ACROSS the road going up the climbs, physically blocking anyone from passing them.
MTFU, other teams.
Sky have cracked stage racing. No point in hating on them for that. People should get on the other teams' cases for not working out how to unpick them.0 -
but skys train dragged everyone up who mattered - of those predicted would make it a day of the climbers on;y evans and jrod didnt cut it - froome, nibali and contador would be in the running whether sky lead the attack or not, and how bad can it be that the all dominant sky still find time to allow horner his little day in the sun.
The dissenter is every human being at those moments of his life when he resigns
momentarily from the herd and thinks for himself.0 -
Certainly no fan of Sky, but today's TA was impressive stuff ... The gap,yo-yoed between 20-30m for a bit then when it was certain that the extra effort would pay dividends Froome went ...
I'll not lie .. Froome winning the TdF would make Wiggins look like a chump, so please god make it happen ...0 -
Crankbrother wrote:I'll not lie .. Froome winning the TdF would make Wiggins look like a chump, so please god make it happen ...
You may not lie, but you ll have to explain wtf you re on about...We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
Sky are a bit Steve Davis. But while Hurricane Higgins and Whirlwind White may have been the fans' favourites, Davis just won, by being absolutely blindingly good.Warning No formatter is installed for the format0
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No tA Doctor wrote:Sky are a bit Steve Davis. But while Hurricane Higgins and Whirlwind White may have been the fans' favourites, Davis just won, by being absolutely blindingly good.
Now there's an anology I can go along with:
Hurricane Higgins = Pantani
Whirlwind White = Boonen
Eddie Charlton = Schleck
Kirk Stevens = Armstrong
Cliff Thorburn = Cadel0 -
ratsbeyfus wrote:Blazing Saddles wrote:ratsbeyfus wrote:iainf72 wrote:The only issue is it makes the racing boring.
Didn't look boring to me.PeteMadoc wrote:Today's stage was superb viewing. Not sure what all this is about tbh. If people are worried about the Sky train then why not just ride it until there's 1km to go then attack, or if you can get yourselves organised attack with a few other strong riders a few k out. Rocket science it is not, stop winging and enjoy the race.
Rose tinted glasses have that effect.
Of course it's boring.
It effectively neutralises attacks and worse, the will to attack.
However, as Iain says, it's bloody effective, so we are stuck with it.
At least we have the benefit of the results.
Imagine watching if you aren't a Brit or fan of Sky.
It's boring if nobody attacks it, but today they did. I like Nibali was rooting for him today, but watching the final few kilometres today was exciting viewing - not despite the SKY train but because of it. There was a real tactical battle going on there that in my opinion was exciting. Maybe not as exciting as watching the chicken vs contador but hey ho.
Funnily enough I watched schleck vs contador 2010 on the tourmalet while doing a turbo session the other night and compared to today it was a bit dull. if Sky's tactics had backfired everyone would be saying it was an epic stage. We had multiple attacks today, failed allegiances, cuntandor blowing up, an explosion from Froome, the last few K was awesome.
I don't even like Froome, but seeing dirty Bertie in trouble is always entertaining. I do think he is off form at the moment though, he normally dances on the pedals for Much longer, he kept sitting down after a short attack. July is a long way off.0 -
ddraver wrote:Crankbrother wrote:I'll not lie .. Froome winning the TdF would make Wiggins look like a chump, so please god make it happen ...
You may not lie, but you ll have to explain wtf you re on about...
Was meaning, really don't like Sky but want a Sky win to belittle 'Sir' Wiggo and prove that it wasn't all that special ...
So if you attach the 'quote' to the opening few words of the complete post it makes sense ... but feel free to mumble and grumble your way through my post ...0 -
Macaloon wrote:Think this is the only serious criticism about Sky's impact on the sport that holds any water: presumably they can afford so many more 450W (whevs) threshold guys than other teams that it takes the climbers out of the GC game.
Not saying it's only about money: when you harness first class brains with a budget to match, money talks.
Just to argue against the 'Sky has the biggest budget and buys up all the talent' thing. They arent the team with the biggest budget, although admittedly they're up there alongside (but not higher than, apparently) BMC, OPQS, Saxo-Tinki (now with Tinkoff's money), Katusha and Astana.
I've posted in another thread:
'BMC spend more on wages for Gilbert, Cuddles and Hushovd, than Sky do on Wiggins, Froome and a host of other riders. At the time of the Tour, Wiggins was on 1.5m, and Froome rumoured 1.2m - Gilbert and Cuddles alone are each around the 3m mark IIRC, and Hushovd isnt far off.
Even for the neos, BMC are ready to offer higher salaries - their offer to Joe Dombrowski was higher than Sky's according to recent interviews.'
When Froome had his breakthrough at the Vuelta he had offers from other teams incl one for 1.4m allegedly from Ag2R which Astana offered to match. Instead he agreed a new contract with Sky at 1.2m.
One of their most valuable domestiques, Knees, they picked up for a 'song' (to quote Shane Sutton) after the Pegasus debacle -they'd noted that he'd managed some Top 10 finishes in the 2010 Tour despite riding for the rather shambolic Milram team.
According to data Brailsford gave journos in their media day in Jan, Sky spend 80% of their budget on riders salaries, whereas other teams spend at least 90%. Sky spend much more than other teams on coaches, more backroom staff etc.0 -
ratsbeyfus wrote:No tA Doctor wrote:Sky are a bit Steve Davis. But while Hurricane Higgins and Whirlwind White may have been the fans' favourites, Davis just won, by being absolutely blindingly good.
Now there's an anology I can go along with:
Hurricane Higgins = Pantani
Whirlwind White = Boonen
Eddie Charlton = Schleck
Kirk Stevens = Armstrong
Cliff Thorburn = Cadel
And at the minute Gilbert = Big Bil Werbiniuk. The dissenter is every human being at those moments of his life when he resigns
momentarily from the herd and thinks for himself.0 -
As this is a forum for all manner of personal opinions and views which is as it should be. IMHO I don't have any problem with teams using "the appliance of (clean, I hope) science" to win. What never ceases to amaze me.....and it is true and has been said that it is an English disease...is the knocking, griping, whingeing that goes on over Sky. Geez if this was a French team or Italian (riders aside) every one would be behind them. Having watched cycling for 30 odd years..either from the roadside or in a PMU bar or TV, today was pretty exciting....I was relieved that we've gone through so many posts without the use of the word panache....but if you pushed me I thought Froome showed a bit today. If we want a clean sport then I think there will be a lot more of this type of racing.....sorry for blaspheming but in those dark days there was some really exciting racing at various points....then we find out that nearly all were on dope (but didn't we really know this anyway) and we felt let down etc etc etc but we want things to be more exciting. Then some miserable gits, who are individuals in a team racing for individual wins but relying on the team to help them achieve this and are paid as individuals to race In team kit but they all have name tags sewn in to remind themselves that ......use SPORT SCIENCE to win......bloody outrageous.
And Geraint Thomas = Terry Griffiths
Sagan - Johne Virgo (so many tricks up his jersey)
Farrar- Willy Thorne0 -
A lot of people seem really quick to point out that Froome could have beaten Wiggins. He had all year to try that... where was he?
Surely Porte has just as much of a claim to say his standings were hindered just as much as? He would a week long tour at the 1 time of asking last year. He isn't doing that bad in Paris Nice at the moment either...
I do get a little fustrated that people will openly question if Wiggins was a worth TDF Champion after the season he had with not just the TDF but every Stage race he entered as leader. Only 1 stage race he didn't win that he entered was won by a teamate no? Was that Froome? :P0 -
If you think that any team trying to control the variables of racing, then delivering a devastatingly successful end-game in professional cycling constitutes "boring" - I'd suggest watching a different sport.
When Merckx went on the attack at the Tour to win a mountain stage alone by minutes was that boring? When Shleck won on Galibier...When Indurain dropped everyone at La Plagne in pursuit of Zulle, when Ullrich distanced Pantani and Virenque at the bottom of Arcalis... When Cancellara went away from Boonen at Flanders on the Muur in 2010, when Canc went from miles out at P-R, when Boonen went from miles out to win P-R last year...?
Wishing that every race could be like Rasmussen Vs Contador/or similar, all the time, is a nonsense. There's got to be quite a few less crash-bang-wallop races before the absolute classics can materialise and be considered "True Classics".0 -
Watching contenders crack is every bit as much fun as watching them attack. Watching them yo-yo, then gently slide forever off the back is one of the great sights in cycling.0
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I read the thread before watching the stage. To be honest I can see both sides. I'm not a fan of invincible trains leading a rider to the last few k where the leader applies the coup de grace USPostal style. Yes it's impressive, but I want more than impressive, I want unpredictable.
Today I thought we got both - it didn't look like a foregone conclusion that Froome would win. If Froome keeps on doing what he did today then it might become too predictable - and whilst that would be impressive it wouldn't make for great viewing. My guess is he wont though - he's good but not that good and with cleaner racing hopefully domestiques wont be able to come back and ride on the front day after day apparently without fatigue.
it's a hard life if you don't weaken.0 -
If cycling is cleaner now then it must make it easier to judge what is sustainable. In the EPO era presumably no-one knew exactly what you're opponent was on so there was a risk that they could sustain it to the finish and therefore you needed to respond to attacks.
If it is cleaner......0 -
In all probability it is cleaner and the lack of ability to sustain attacks seems quite evident. I don't think it is boring either. Riders are now toe to toe slogging it out with 2,3 or 4 guys taking a chance. No-one is riding off from the foot of the mountain taking the p!ss.0
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No tA Doctor wrote:Sky are a bit Steve Davis. But while Hurricane Higgins and Whirlwind White may have been the fans' favourites, Davis just won, by being absolutely blindingly good.
This is exactly the analogy I have, but I wasn't sure how many of were old enough. Calculated consistent precision against ultimately uncontrollable raw talent. Got to admire both, both, but I know which one is more entertaining.0 -
Mad_Malx wrote:No tA Doctor wrote:Sky are a bit Steve Davis. But while Hurricane Higgins and Whirlwind White may have been the fans' favourites, Davis just won, by being absolutely blindingly good.
This is exactly the analogy I have, but I wasn't sure how many of were old enough. Calculated consistent precision against ultimately uncontrollable raw talent. Got to admire both, both, but I know which one is more entertaining.
The trouble for the Sky detractors - and the snooker analogy - is that they (Sky) now possess both. Fenton can seem like an "uncontrollable raw talent" (and he certainly now seems uncontollable if you're Contador); JTL was proving "uncontrollable" for most of last year... as was Dombrovski in the Baby Giro... Henao, Uran, Porte, etc...0 -
Can anyone name a stage since 2011 when any of the big GC names have been able to put, say, 1 min+ into their opponents through an attack on the final climb?
The stage Contador won in the Vuelta was due to a massive tactical error by Katusha 40km from the finish. There were many attacks from Contador, J-Rod, Valverde but IIRC none of them really stuck for that long.
The Giro, Tour, any of the one week races?
I really can't remember any huge attack like we used to see before 2011-ish. The fact is that as the peloton becomes cleaner the gap between the really elite level cyclists falls and people just can't sustain an attack for as long as they used to.
The only way I can see the Sky train being defeated is if the other GC guys repeatedly attack as a unit, one after the other, forcing the Sky team to chase them down day after day. Eventually the elastic will snap and an attack will get away.
Like ThomThom said I would love to see power meters and heart rate monitors banned. Then we could still have clean riders but introduce much more variables to the race which would make it more unpredictable.0 -
We need some science here
http://www.sportsci.org/jour/9804/dps.html
It doesn't seem to work as well on really steep slopes though (thinking Zoncalan type climbs) this seems to be more down to the individual than the team.
Is it fair to say though, that on a long steady climb if enough people disrupted the effort eventually the train would break down, a lot of effort would be required though and the end result may be same.
Just saying is all.0 -
I don't find Sky's tactics boring, I rather enjoy watching a team execute a plan to such perfection. It's interesting that the attacks such as there were were not so much unsustained, but never really gained any distance in the first place. Clearly the bookies think come July Bert will turn it around on Froome http://www.oddschecker.com/cycling/tour ... nce/winner - Andy Schleck is a shorter price to win the 2014 TdF than he is for this year's.
Based on results it's rather odd to see Wiggins described as a non-climber.0
