Nibali comments

frenchfighter

Not to deviate too much from the point but Wiggin's win at the Tour was anti-panache, flair, style etc as I know it. Yes he rode tempo better than anyone else and yes he has an extraordinary TT in his legs, but that was it.

His sprint win had some flair though.

Yellow Peril

I think it's fair to say there are more opportiunities for a classy climber like Contador or a great descender like Nibs to show flair.

Remember the Cancellara yellow jersey /descent/ catch up in the TdF that someone put to Mozart on Youtube a couple of years ago? How did that rate on the panache-ometer?

mooro

off topic//
how dare you trump me with a picture!!

I spent ten years in supply chain mgt in japanese car manufacturing plants and revel in the panache and grace of absolute efficiency!

//on topic

mooro

Yellow Peril wrote:

I think it's fair to say there are more opportiunities for a classy climber like Contador or a great descender like Nibs to show flair.

Remember the Cancellara yellow jersey /descent/ catch up in the TdF that someone put to Mozart on Youtube a couple of years ago? How did that rate on the panache-ometer?

On climbers thats true, but it is still perception. Schleck on the galibier in 2011 was a fantastic and stylish ride but Evans was equal if not better - though he rides like a bag of spanners!

Re Canc - the one where he pulled the time back through the cars ? pure class (not sure if i can use the term true champion it may have copywrite?). to answer your question though - high on the panache-ometer

frenchfighter

Yellow Peril wrote:

I think it's fair to say there are more opportiunities for a classy climber like Contador or a great descender like Nibs to show flair.

Remember the Cancellara yellow jersey /descent/ catch up in the TdF that someone put to Mozart on Youtube a couple of years ago? How did that rate on the panache-ometer?

You know what I have thought Wiggins can do: try and use his incredible TT skills to ride off the front of the peloton or more likely a small group.

I guess this will use too much energy/not be as efficient for Sky's Plan.

It is a skill he may well have at his disposal that others don't and I would like to see it employed one day/

frenchfighter

Mooro wrote:

off topic//
how dare you trump me with a picture!!

I spent ten years in supply chain mgt in japanese car manufacturing plants and revel in the panache and grace of absolute efficiency!

//on topic

Just had to watch CNBC interviewing all the car company execs at Geneva motor show today. There was one funny looking guy, which I could remember the car company.

durhamwasp

sour grapes from Nibs

mooro

[/quote]

Just had to watch CNBC interviewing all the car company execs at Geneva motor show today. There was one funny looking guy, which I could remember the car company.[/quote]

renault nissan carlos ghosn funny little brazilian guy or mercedes dieter zetzher (sp?) with a comedy tash?

they both like and respect nibs so its not off topic

ratsbeyfus

frenchfighter wrote:

Yellow Peril wrote:

I think it's fair to say there are more opportiunities for a classy climber like Contador or a great descender like Nibs to show flair.

Remember the Cancellara yellow jersey /descent/ catch up in the TdF that someone put to Mozart on Youtube a couple of years ago? How did that rate on the panache-ometer?

You know what I have thought Wiggins can do: try and use his incredible TT skills to ride off the front of the peloton or more likely a small group.

I guess this will use too much energy/not be as efficient for Sky's Plan.

It is a skill he may well have at his disposal that others don't and I would like to see it employed one day/

Stringing out the bunch at 2011 world champs. Leading out Cav in Paris in yellow. True Champion.

RichN95.

durhamwasp wrote:

sour grapes from Nibs

I genuinely don't think it is. He just a bit of a stirrer. Always has been.

frenchfighter

ratsbeyfus wrote:

Stringing out the bunch at 2011 world champs. Leading out Cav in Paris in yellow. True Champion.

Nope. I am not talking turning on the gas to be a domestique. I am talking about turning on the gas at the front end and dropping all but the toughest legs to put good time into his GC opponents on the flat.

frenchfighter

Some things don't change.





And one for the ladies:

Yellow Peril

frenchfighter wrote:

ratsbeyfus wrote:

Stringing out the bunch at 2011 world champs. Leading out Cav in Paris in yellow. True Champion.

Nope. I am not talking turning on the gas to be a domestique. I am talking about turning on the gas at the front end and dropping all but the toughest legs to put good time into his GC opponents on the flat.

TBH it's worth a go. It is something we admire (and despair at) with cancellara at times. He forces the selection in this way (sometimes to no personal avail) but watching him turn the wick up is always exciting

inkyfingers

frenchfighter wrote:

ratsbeyfus wrote:

Stringing out the bunch at 2011 world champs. Leading out Cav in Paris in yellow. True Champion.

Nope. I am not talking turning on the gas to be a domestique. I am talking about turning on the gas at the front end and dropping all but the toughest legs to put good time into his GC opponents on the flat.

He did that in a mountain stage in the 2011 Vuelta actually, can't remember which stage, but the finish was windy and wound it up and put everybody else into the gutter, dropped J Rod, Menchov etc if I remember rightly. It was great, would love to see him try that again.

You're right about putting guys in trouble on the flat, i'm sure he could do it to the pure climbers, but you do
need the right kind of race conditions for that to work, i.e. select group, with no domestiques or strong rouleurs to pull him back. Those conditions don't happen very often in GTs.

Richmond Racer

inkyfingers wrote:

frenchfighter wrote:

ratsbeyfus wrote:

Stringing out the bunch at 2011 world champs. Leading out Cav in Paris in yellow. True Champion.

Nope. I am not talking turning on the gas to be a domestique. I am talking about turning on the gas at the front end and dropping all but the toughest legs to put good time into his GC opponents on the flat.

He did that in a mountain stage in the 2011 Vuelta actually, can't remember which stage, but the finish was windy and wound it up and put everybody else into the gutter, dropped J Rod, Menchov etc if I remember rightly. It was great, would love to see him try that again.

You're right about putting guys in trouble on the flat, i'm sure he could do it to the pure climbers, but you do
need the right kind of race conditions for that to work, i.e. select group, with no domestiques or strong rouleurs to pull him back. Those conditions don't happen very often in GTs.

Its an interesting discussion. For me one of the most enjoyable stages last year was St 1 of Romandie, partly for Wiggins totally unexpected sprint but also because of the way you can see him charging through the field on his own, no team mates around him, in the last few kms on pure adrenaline after he'd punctured earlier.

Just maybe now with a Tour and a record-breaking string of wins on his palmares, and with him already alluding to this being the last part of his career before retirement, we will see some different tactics occasionally - but only if the race conditions allow, as Inky says.

frenchfighter

inkyfingers wrote:

Those conditions don't happen very often in GTs.

The best things in life don't come easy.

I don't remember that stage but would be good to see him, or anyone else have a go. Contador showed how effective it can be last year and Wiggins has more flat/TT gas than Contador.

lostboysaint

squired

Wiggins went into Oman talking positively, but then on the first stage he was supposedly held up by the crash, but then wasn't put on the same time as the peloton. For me, as soon as that happened any thought of him riding the race hard went out the window, as the GC was over for him.

Sky have a lot of big names and expect people to give up their own ambitions in races (no going in breaks, etc.), so it is important for the star riders to also ride for others. If Wiggins can help someone like Uran win the Giro Trentino heading into the Giro it will probably be far more beneficial for team morale than riders like Uran being given no opportunities at all.

roypsb

frenchfighter wrote:

Not to deviate too much from the point but Wiggin's win at the Tour was anti-panache, flair, style etc as I know it. Yes he rode tempo better than anyone else and yes he has an extraordinary TT in his legs, but that was it.

His sprint win had some flair though.

I thought his workrate on one of the latter stages for EBH and on the Champs for Cav showed real panache.

I know it's all about opinions but this is the usual snipes at Sky / Wiggo.

IMHO - Nibali is now well past his sell-by date.

shinyhelmut

Winston Churchill wrote:

However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results.

frenchfighter

ShinyHelmut wrote:

Winston Churchill wrote:

However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results.

Very nice quote. Haven't seen it before.

At the end of the day, I talk from my perspective which is that of a fan. And even from the riders perspective they are not just employed for their results - people like Pozzato, to name an obvious one, don't have the best results but provide a lot of publicity.

frenchfighter

RoyPSB wrote:

I thought his workrate on one of the latter stages for EBH and on the Champs for Cav showed real panache.

I know it's all about opinions but this is the usual snipes at Sky / Wiggo.

IMHO - Nibali is now well past his sell-by date.

Genuinely interested here. What specifically do you think was 'panache'? And how is this different to the many domestiques that can pull like crazy day in day out.

This is quality, but then Geraint is class.


Why do you think Nibali is 'well past his sell-by-date'? He is 28, has an excellent palmares and can win 3 weeks, 1 weeks and one dayers.

shinyhelmut

Absolutely. If everyone rode like wiggins then the sport would be very boring, however I suspect most riders would rather be praised for the win than praised for their panache.

PuttyKnees

Wouldn't quote Churchill on strategy. Most of his schemes were disasters.

There's a certain beauty to the steady ramping of speed and effort that sheds riders off the back. It's often as exciting as someone attacking off the front, and often more so, since it can be sustained. Wiggins willingness to work hard is also part of his appeal, though perhaps it's something more "British" in the sense that we like grafters. The examples of Wiggins working for the benefit of others creates a picture of a rider really very much in the tradition of cycling in Britain.

Yellow Peril

PuttyKnees wrote:

Wouldn't quote Churchill on strategy. Most of his schemes were disasters.

There's a certain beauty to the steady ramping of speed and effort that sheds riders off the back. It's often as exciting as someone attacking off the front, and often more so, since it can be sustained. Wiggins willingness to work hard is also part of his appeal, though perhaps it's something more "British" in the sense that we like grafters. The examples of Wiggins working for the benefit of others creates a picture of a rider really very much in the tradition of cycling in Britain.

Quite true. IIRC the turning point in David Beckham's football career after being treacherous for getting sent off with a stupid kick of an opponent was to turn himself inside out everytime he pulled an England shirt on.

Wiggo is a bit like that I guess. But there are players/riders/competitors who have a death or glory approach that may not always be successful but we love to watch . Given a choice from a spectator's point of view (and being British whereby the rub of the green up until recently in most sports has gone against us) I'd take panache over a result.

dave_1

Alberto probably had an echo positive from a bb he had banked when using cocktail including. Bert needs bbs or edgar to race at top levels. He would be poor tt riders without bbs

frenchfighter

john_kline

ShinyHelmut wrote:

Winston Churchill wrote:

However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results.

Eric Bristow said, "Scoring's for show double's for dough"

nic_77

How about in the 2012 Paris Nice where Wiggins got himself the right side of a split in the wind, and then drove a small bunch to the finish? Exploiting his TT skillz to force a race winning position... is that the sort of thing you are looking for??

lostboysaint

nic_77 wrote:

How about in the 2012 Paris Nice where Wiggins got himself the right side of a split in the wind, and then drove a small bunch to the finish? Exploiting his TT skillz to force a race winning position... is that the sort of thing you are looking for??

No, it isn't. He's looking for precisely the opposite so that it proves his point, whatever his point actually is.