Nutrition Advice for Distance

mozejo

I'm doing Paris-Roubaix ( more fool me ) in a month's time , and I've steadily built up to the distance ( 170kms ) BUT I am having issues on the nutrition front. For a ride of that length - what do you use ? NB I was totally cream crackered for the last 5 miles of my 90 miler this weekend

dhope

mozejo wrote:

I'm doing Paris-Roubaix ( more fool me ) in a month's time , and I've steadily built up to the distance ( 170kms ) BUT I am having issues on the nutrition front. For a ride of that length - what do you use ? NB I was totally cream crackered for the last 5 miles of my 90 miler this weekend

Do most of your eating in the days before.
100 miler the weekend before last I had a large lunch and bigger dinner, then a big bowl of porridge in the morning, all pretty carby. Then on the day just picked up a couple of bananas and nibbled on granola/flapjack bars from Tesco.
I don't do that distance often so I still need to eat plenty. I probably err on the side of overeating tbh, given that I can happily have a normal breakfast and do 50 miles without needing a snack.

mozejo

I'm with you on the 40-50 miles snackless . I find bananas go down very easily and I'm a sucker for a flapjack so might make some of my own rather than go all techno gel on the situation !

meanredspider

You've got to keep eating for a ride of that length. We can all do 50 miles without needing much but over twice that distance is a different story - your glycogen stores really start to struggle. It's really finding carbs that work for you and start eating long before you need it - small & steady.

mozejo

so do you have something , say , every hour ? Or is it just ' when you feel like it ' ?

cyclingprop

Before before before. If you feel like you need it, it's WAY too late.

greg66_tri_v2.0

mozejo wrote:

so do you have something , say , every hour ? Or is it just ' when you feel like it ' ?

!

For me, a century ride, every 20-25 mins I'll have a mouthful of Clif Bar or something similar washed down with some water. At the mid point between those feeds, I'll swig and electrolyte & carb drink. I aim to stick to those intervals irrespective of whether I think I don't need to eat.

If you wait until you feel like eating, you'll have left it way too late.

Slow release carbs the day before are good too.

mozejo

Very helpful stuff thank you . I'm doing 4 80-90 mile rides over the next 4 weekends so that should give me plenty of time to get the right routine sorted out.

suzyb

meanredspider wrote:

You've got to keep eating for a ride of that length. We can all do 50 miles without needing much but over twice that distance is a different story - your glycogen stores really start to struggle. It's really finding carbs that work for you and start eating long before you need it - small & steady.

I keep reading this but surely it depends on the person and terrain they are riding.

I would think someone fat and unfit riding a hilly route would use more energy and therefore need to have taken / take more in than a skinny whippet riding the route.

dhope

suzyb wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

You've got to keep eating for a ride of that length. We can all do 50 miles without needing much but over twice that distance is a different story - your glycogen stores really start to struggle. It's really finding carbs that work for you and start eating long before you need it - small & steady.

I keep reading this but surely it depends on the person and terrain they are riding.

I would think someone fat and unfit riding a hilly route would use more energy and therefore need to have taken / take more in than a skinny whippet riding the route.

Yep, but we're assuming that someone riding 100 miles can do 50 fairly comfortably, and if you can do 50 comfortably then you're probably not in the unfit category, fat or otherwise. Just as said before, eating little and often and before you feel like you need it is the key.

mozejo

50-60 I'm very happy - it's the last 10 of the 80 -90 where I've found myself fading badly . It used to be 60 but I've trained way through that now

suzyb

dhope wrote:

suzyb wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

You've got to keep eating for a ride of that length. We can all do 50 miles without needing much but over twice that distance is a different story - your glycogen stores really start to struggle. It's really finding carbs that work for you and start eating long before you need it - small & steady.

I keep reading this but surely it depends on the person and terrain they are riding.

I would think someone fat and unfit riding a hilly route would use more energy and therefore need to have taken / take more in than a skinny whippet riding the route.

Yep, but we're assuming that someone riding 100 miles can do 50 fairly comfortably, and if you can do 50 comfortably then you're probably not in the unfit category, fat or otherwise. Just as said before, eating little and often and before you feel like you need it is the key.

Good point. I was butting into the thread to ask more generally

The question seems to come up regularily but the answer is always the same even though it doesn't really make any sense (at least without knowing more about who is asking it).

cyclingprop

dhope wrote:

suzyb wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

You've got to keep eating for a ride of that length. We can all do 50 miles without needing much but over twice that distance is a different story - your glycogen stores really start to struggle. It's really finding carbs that work for you and start eating long before you need it - small & steady.

I keep reading this but surely it depends on the person and terrain they are riding.

I would think someone fat and unfit riding a hilly route would use more energy and therefore need to have taken / take more in than a skinny whippet riding the route.

Yep, but we're assuming that someone riding 100 miles can do 50 fairly comfortably, and if you can do 50 comfortably then you're probably not in the unfit category, fat or otherwise. Just as said before, eating little and often and before you feel like you need it is the key.

You just called me fit. Is this really the place for man love?

dhope

cyclingprop wrote:

dhope wrote:

suzyb wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

You've got to keep eating for a ride of that length. We can all do 50 miles without needing much but over twice that distance is a different story - your glycogen stores really start to struggle. It's really finding carbs that work for you and start eating long before you need it - small & steady.

I keep reading this but surely it depends on the person and terrain they are riding.

I would think someone fat and unfit riding a hilly route would use more energy and therefore need to have taken / take more in than a skinny whippet riding the route.

Yep, but we're assuming that someone riding 100 miles can do 50 fairly comfortably, and if you can do 50 comfortably then you're probably not in the unfit category, fat or otherwise. Just as said before, eating little and often and before you feel like you need it is the key.

You just called me fit. Is this really the place for man love?

Yeah, I started out saying that they'd not be fat and unfit then remembered you, so removed the fat bit.

Daz555

Pasta in the days before.
A loaf of soreen for breakfast on the day.
Fig rolls for the ride.

Done.

styxd

Daz555 wrote:

Pasta in the days before.
A loaf of soreen for breakfast on the day.
Fig rolls for the ride.

Done.

Are you over weight?

vermin

suzyb wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

You've got to keep eating for a ride of that length. We can all do 50 miles without needing much but over twice that distance is a different story - your glycogen stores really start to struggle. It's really finding carbs that work for you and start eating long before you need it - small & steady.

I keep reading this but surely it depends on the person and terrain they are riding.

I would think someone fat and unfit riding a hilly route would use more energy and therefore need to have taken / take more in than a skinny whippet riding the route.

It's saddle time, rather than distance, to a point.

I did a 75 on Saturday on a bowl of porridge to start and a bite of flapjack every 30 mins. Mmm tasty flapjack.... With strawberry jam inside.... No problem.

daveyroids

I would use summer or winter training formula from all sports, banana and large bag of chocolate peanuts.

Also take Graeme Obree's advice and take Jam and bread.

For breakfast large bowl of porridge.

I have done long audax / club rides and solo rides on the above.

meanredspider

suzyb wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

You've got to keep eating for a ride of that length. We can all do 50 miles without needing much but over twice that distance is a different story - your glycogen stores really start to struggle. It's really finding carbs that work for you and start eating long before you need it - small & steady.

I keep reading this but surely it depends on the person and terrain they are riding.

I would think someone fat and unfit riding a hilly route would use more energy and therefore need to have taken / take more in than a skinny whippet riding the route.

For sure. As above, this assumes someone who can actually manage the 170km. And it does assume road riding on something similar to the P-R route. If we're talking the Strathpuffer, then 50 miles is probably 8 hours and that's a whole new kettle of worms

The general point is this: your glycogen stores can get you only so far without help. By the time you've realised you've depleted them, it's too late. The trick is to keep your blood sugar levels sufficiently topped up without
1. Making yourself feel sick
2. Going hyperglycaemic (as you start to exercise, your liver releases sugars into your bloodstream in anticipation. If you also take glucose onboard at the same time, you can overdo it)

Little & often (according to how much you're burning) is the ideal.

mozejo

ok so its homemade flapjack , pre ride porridge , some gels and a drink. Could well explode . Would not recommend being behind me on P-R .

meanredspider

Cool - practice eating that way when you next ride just to see how you are on it. You don't want to be trying something the first time on the Big Ride

suzyb

meanredspider wrote:

suzyb wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

You've got to keep eating for a ride of that length. We can all do 50 miles without needing much but over twice that distance is a different story - your glycogen stores really start to struggle. It's really finding carbs that work for you and start eating long before you need it - small & steady.

I keep reading this but surely it depends on the person and terrain they are riding.

I would think someone fat and unfit riding a hilly route would use more energy and therefore need to have taken / take more in than a skinny whippet riding the route.

For sure. As above, this assumes someone who can actually manage the 170km. And it does assume road riding on something similar to the P-R route. If we're talking the Strathpuffer, then 50 miles is probably 8 hours and that's a whole new kettle of worms

The general point is this: your glycogen stores can get you only so far without help. By the time you've realised you've depleted them, it's too late. The trick is to keep your blood sugar levels sufficiently topped up without
1. Making yourself feel sick
2. Going hyperglycaemic (as you start to exercise, your liver releases sugars into your bloodstream in anticipation. If you also take glucose onboard at the same time, you can overdo it)

Little & often (according to how much you're burning) is the ideal.

Any way of estimating this or is it just trial and error.

greg66_tri_v2.0

suzyb wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

suzyb wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

You've got to keep eating for a ride of that length. We can all do 50 miles without needing much but over twice that distance is a different story - your glycogen stores really start to struggle. It's really finding carbs that work for you and start eating long before you need it - small & steady.

I keep reading this but surely it depends on the person and terrain they are riding.

I would think someone fat and unfit riding a hilly route would use more energy and therefore need to have taken / take more in than a skinny whippet riding the route.

For sure. As above, this assumes someone who can actually manage the 170km. And it does assume road riding on something similar to the P-R route. If we're talking the Strathpuffer, then 50 miles is probably 8 hours and that's a whole new kettle of worms

The general point is this: your glycogen stores can get you only so far without help. By the time you've realised you've depleted them, it's too late. The trick is to keep your blood sugar levels sufficiently topped up without
1. Making yourself feel sick
2. Going hyperglycaemic (as you start to exercise, your liver releases sugars into your bloodstream in anticipation. If you also take glucose onboard at the same time, you can overdo it)

Little & often (according to how much you're burning) is the ideal.

Any way of estimating this or is it just trial and error.

Start at every 25 mins and go from there.

You must also remember that once the weather turns warmer, you'll sweat (or, in your case, glow). That will expel salts from your body, and it is essential to keep taking on board electrolytes if you want cell processes to keep working properly. SIS do some decent electrolyte and carb drinks that aren't repulsive.

Cleat Eastwood

Greg66 Tri v2.0 wrote:

[

!

For me, a century ride, every 20-25 mins I'll have a mouthful of Clif Bar or something similar washed down with some water. At the mid point between those feeds, I'll swig and electrolyte & carb drink. I aim to stick to those intervals irrespective of whether I think I don't need to eat.

If you wait until you feel like eating, you'll have left it way too late.

Slow release carbs the day before are good too.

meanredspider wrote:

You've got to keep eating for a ride of that length. We can all do 50 miles without needing much but over twice that distance is a different story - your glycogen stores really start to struggle. It's really finding carbs that work for you and start eating long before you need it - small & steady.

I think these have it spot on - you have to effectively eat for the last 20-30 miles - on a ride with others it so easy to get dragged along and forget to snack - but you pay for it in the end.

meanredspider

The sports gel manufacturers recommend 3 gels an hour which is around 250kcals. In the end it's about getting something into you so that you're topping up your energy constantly to share the load with your glycogen (and, to a lesser extent and far less important, fat) stores. It's the glycogen that gets depleted (most of us could go a very long way on our fat stores) and leads to the bonk.

It might be worth carrying some readily accessible sugar for towards the end of the ride either as gels, jelly beans or, maybe even better, as drinks powder for a fast hit if you need it. Start with the slower release stuff and homemade flapjack is perfect if it works with your stomach. Pre-ride porridge is best eaten 1.5 to 2 hours beforehand.

When carb-loading in the day or two beforehand, make sure you drink plenty too. IIRC glycogen needs 3g of water for every 1g of glycogen when stored. It's the reason that dieters lose water (and weight) very quickly as they use up their glycogen stores.

daviesee

meanredspider wrote:

The sports gel manufacturers recommend 3 gels an hour ............

Well it took a lot longer than I expected.
170 kms @ 25 kmh = 6.8 hours = 20 gels.

Does anyone really do that?

I wonder why sports gel manufacturers recommend so much. :twisted:

meanredspider

daviesee wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

The sports gel manufacturers recommend 3 gels an hour ............

Well it took a lot longer than I expected.
170 kms @ 25 kmh = 6.8 hours = 20 gels.

Does anyone really do that?

I wonder why sports gel manufacturers recommend so much. :twisted:

I know - that's why I followed it up with what I did. Besides that, that's just while you're relying on gels. A variety is important. I think gels are fine for a quick hit but I rarely use them for anything else - apart from the fact they're sickly and sticky. That said, I've seen people on the Etape Caledonia with 10 or more tucked into a belt.

Wrath Rob

4 weeks to go? In which case you want to be trying to train your body to source more of its energy needs from fat rather than glycogen. This means that you can go much further for longer. How do you do this? Have a look at fasted training. This promotes the fat burning metabolic pathways over the glycogen paths for the same level of intensity, thereby saving your glycogen for when you really need it.

Essentially eat a small dinner the night before, have no breakfast and then set out on an endurance ride, so low intensity. Take some snacks with you and then after an hour you should start to eat your snack, taking a bite every 10 mins or son. Drink only water or an electrolyte mix, no energy drink. Keep taking a bite of a snack every 10 mins for the rest of the ride. DO NOT ATTEMPT THIS FOR HIGHER INTENSITY RIDES! You will bonk, it will be unpleasant. Trust me, I've done it.

Carbo-loading? Do it right. Its not just about eating loads of pasta.

On the day of the ride itself, make sure you've fuelled properly and have a good breakfast a couple of hours before the ride, this lets your body digest the meal and top up your stores. If you think through your body's needs you can work out what to eat during the ride to do the best you can. You'll "burn" around 600-700 calories an hour depending on the intensity. If you've trained right and keep your self in the "endurance" zone, much of this will come from your fat stores. The rest will come from glycogen and if you're not keeping that topped up, you'll slowly run out of energy. If the route is hillier then you'll use more glycogen and have to work harder to top it up.

Of course, your body can only actually absorb so much too, about 60-90g carbs an hour (varies depending on the types of carbs and you), this is 240-360 calories, which is 3 gels or 1 bar. I prefer the bar option as they are easier to have little and often and generally taste much nicer than gels. So, after an hours riding or so, start eating little and often. A bite of a bar every 10 mins is enough to keep you going, keep your glycogen from being used up and will get you to the end.

daviesee

meanredspider wrote:

I know - that's why I followed it up with what I did..

I know. Nothing personal. You are just the unfortunate who fell into the trap that let me make my point.

mozejo

Guys and Gal this is all incredibly helpful stuff and I appreciate your time and comments.

I'm pretty sure 20 gels would do something terrible to anyone's stomach , so I shall do some sort of mix and match combo of real food + gels etc.

At least I have 4 major rides to test all this out.

Now , if anyone knows of any cobbles in thd SW London area , that'll help too..............

meanredspider

Wrath Rob wrote:

4 weeks to go? In which case you want to be trying to train your body to source more of its energy needs from fat rather than glycogen. This means that you can go much further for longer. How do you do this? Have a look at fasted training. This promotes the fat burning metabolic pathways over the glycogen paths for the same level of intensity, thereby saving your glycogen for when you really need it.

Essentially eat a small dinner the night before, have no breakfast and then set out on an endurance ride, so low intensity. Take some snacks with you and then after an hour you should start to eat your snack, taking a bite every 10 mins or son. Drink only water or an electrolyte mix, no energy drink. Keep taking a bite of a snack every 10 mins for the rest of the ride. DO NOT ATTEMPT THIS FOR HIGHER INTENSITY RIDES! You will bonk, it will be unpleasant. Trust me, I've done it.

I've a book that recommends the same thing without the fasting. I have to say that I'm not convinced that fasting helps and isn't some sort of gimmick. The low intensity/high duration piece is the important bit