2x20 intervals - I'm converted !

nammynake

I did a decent amount of road mileage last year and probably hit my peak fitness in July/August. The mileage dropped during the Autumn, and Winter was pretty rubbish due to illness and general laziness.

I went out for my first road ride of 2013 in mid January on a very familiar route of 45 miles. It's reasonably hilly and includes the Norwood Edge climb near Otley (for those who know the area). Well the ride was unbelievably tough - I was shocked at how my fitness had dropped over the previous couple if months. I was very close to stopping on one climb, which I hadn't experienced since starting riding a couple of years ago.

Anyway this gave me a kick up the backside to start putting some miles - especially important as I'm signed up to do the Fred Whitton and La Marmotte this summer.

I have done 3 more weekend rides since then, ranging from 50 miles to 67 today. I've also been doing 2 turbo sessions per week for the past 4 or 5 weeks. I didn't really know what kind of sessions to do but I'd heard good things about 2x20s.

Anyway, my yardstick for fitness is the aforementioned Nor wood Edge climb:

http://app.strava.com/segments/2521267

My recent times are:

Jan 5th - 9:44
Feb 16th - 8:27
Mar 3rd - 7:49

My PB is 7:46 which was set in August.

I felt really strong today but I am shocked at a) my progress since January and b) I'm only 3 seconds of my PB set during the summer. The 2x20 intervals really do appear to have had a massive effect.

So a big thumbs up to them! I am keen to hear other peoples thoughts on them. Should I continue doing them, maybe 3 sessions per week, or start doing 2x30 or 3x20?

My main focus is training for La Marmotte in July.

Oh, and also did this beast on today's ride - Greenhow Hill out of Pateley Bridge:

http://app.strava.com/segments/1097296

alihisgreat

News flash!

Riding bike more makes you faster!!!!


(also I think you've mixed up the causality -> what if its the weekend rides that are making you faster not the intervals? )

nammynake

Of course the weekend rides have helped, but I've only done 4 this year. I am just surprised that I am climbing as well as I was during the summer when I was doing a hell of a lot more miles but very little turbo work after Spring.

phreak

Suspect the turbo will equip you better for the Marmotte, as each climb will take a fair bit longer than 10 minutes to complete. I try and do 60 minute sessions on the turbo to try and replicate the hour that most European climbs take.

jon208

Sounds like we use the same training roads! I'm also signed up for the Marmotte this year. I've found 2 x 20 intervals very good for restoring fitness after a break in training. As above, I've been doing some 1 hour turbo rides at tempo to try an simulate alpine climbs - massively boring though. Maybe I should just go up the Chevin 20 times?!

markos1963

You can't do 2x30 or 3x20 in the same way as you do 2x20, unless of course you have been underperforming on the 2x20. Try 5x5 at a higher intensity or 60-90 mins at tempo if you want some variation.

Tom Dean

markos1963 wrote:

You can't do 2x30 or 3x20 in the same way as you do 2x20, unless of course you have been underperforming on the 2x20. Try 5x5 at a higher intensity or 60-90 mins at tempo if you want some variation.

What do you mean 'underperforming'? You do not have to perform these sessions to the limit of your ability, and there are good reasons why you might not want to. Increasing the number or length of the efforts is a perfectly reasonable way to increase training load at this particular level. Your suggestions would not achieve this.

markos1963

Tom Dean wrote:

markos1963 wrote:

You can't do 2x30 or 3x20 in the same way as you do 2x20, unless of course you have been underperforming on the 2x20. Try 5x5 at a higher intensity or 60-90 mins at tempo if you want some variation.

What do you mean 'underperforming'? You do not have to perform these sessions to the limit of your ability, and there are good reasons why you might not want to. Increasing the number or length of the efforts is a perfectly reasonable way to increase training load at this particular level. Your suggestions would not achieve this.

I mean a 2x 20 should be done at around 10TT pace or slightly above to make the most of the interval. By definition a 2x 30 interval would be unachievable if done at the same intensity as a 20. I agree about increasing lengths of intervals but surely they have to done at a level that's comparable?

doyler78

markos1963 wrote:

Tom Dean wrote:

markos1963 wrote:

You can't do 2x30 or 3x20 in the same way as you do 2x20, unless of course you have been underperforming on the 2x20. Try 5x5 at a higher intensity or 60-90 mins at tempo if you want some variation.

What do you mean 'underperforming'? You do not have to perform these sessions to the limit of your ability, and there are good reasons why you might not want to. Increasing the number or length of the efforts is a perfectly reasonable way to increase training load at this particular level. Your suggestions would not achieve this.

I mean a 2x 20 should be done at around 10TT pace or slightly above to make the most of the interval. By definition a 2x 30 interval would be unachievable if done at the same intensity as a 20. I agree about increasing lengths of intervals but surely they have to done at a level that's comparable?

No they don't. A comparable level will probably lead to stagnation. You need to progress and that means increasing the load and that by its very nature means you must perform the same exercise harder by increasing both or one of the following two things: duration or intensity.

Also the mix of intensity and duration will also be dictated by what your goals are, where you are in current program both from a macro and micro point of view, what you have just done and what you plan to do in the days before and after and your current ability to recover.

alihisgreat

doyler78 wrote:

markos1963 wrote:

Tom Dean wrote:

markos1963 wrote:

You can't do 2x30 or 3x20 in the same way as you do 2x20, unless of course you have been underperforming on the 2x20. Try 5x5 at a higher intensity or 60-90 mins at tempo if you want some variation.

What do you mean 'underperforming'? You do not have to perform these sessions to the limit of your ability, and there are good reasons why you might not want to. Increasing the number or length of the efforts is a perfectly reasonable way to increase training load at this particular level. Your suggestions would not achieve this.

I mean a 2x 20 should be done at around 10TT pace or slightly above to make the most of the interval. By definition a 2x 30 interval would be unachievable if done at the same intensity as a 20. I agree about increasing lengths of intervals but surely they have to done at a level that's comparable?

No they don't. A comparable level will probably lead to stagnation. You need to progress and that means increasing the load and that by its very nature means you must perform the same exercise harder by increasing both or one of the following two things: duration or intensity.

Also the mix of intensity and duration will also be dictated by what your goals are, where you are in current program both from a macro and micro point of view, what you have just done and what you plan to do in the days before and after and your current ability to recover.

If your FTP increases, and you're doing intervals based on FTP.. then surely they can't stagnate since you're increasing the power output over the time period?

Tom Dean

markos1963 wrote:

Tom Dean wrote:

markos1963 wrote:

You can't do 2x30 or 3x20 in the same way as you do 2x20, unless of course you have been underperforming on the 2x20. Try 5x5 at a higher intensity or 60-90 mins at tempo if you want some variation.

What do you mean 'underperforming'? You do not have to perform these sessions to the limit of your ability, and there are good reasons why you might not want to. Increasing the number or length of the efforts is a perfectly reasonable way to increase training load at this particular level. Your suggestions would not achieve this.

I mean a 2x 20 should be done at around 10TT pace or slightly above to make the most of the interval. By definition a 2x 30 interval would be unachievable if done at the same intensity as a 20. I agree about increasing lengths of intervals but surely they have to done at a level that's comparable?

Above 10 pace! Bloody hell. My point is there is no set intensity they should be done at. Obviously if you are at your limit for 20 mins you couldn't do 30. Making the most' of an interval depends on all sorts of things and doesn't always mean going as hard as possible.

nammynake

Thanks for the comments guys. I am not doing 2x20 at my limit, but nevertheless I don't think I'm too far away. My heart rate is around 85-90% MHR based on my estimated Max.

markos1963

Tom Dean wrote:

markos1963 wrote:

Tom Dean wrote:

markos1963 wrote:

You can't do 2x30 or 3x20 in the same way as you do 2x20, unless of course you have been underperforming on the 2x20. Try 5x5 at a higher intensity or 60-90 mins at tempo if you want some variation.

What do you mean 'underperforming'? You do not have to perform these sessions to the limit of your ability, and there are good reasons why you might not want to. Increasing the number or length of the efforts is a perfectly reasonable way to increase training load at this particular level. Your suggestions would not achieve this.

I mean a 2x 20 should be done at around 10TT pace or slightly above to make the most of the interval. By definition a 2x 30 interval would be unachievable if done at the same intensity as a 20. I agree about increasing lengths of intervals but surely they have to done at a level that's comparable?

Above 10 pace! Bloody hell. My point is there is no set intensity they should be done at. Obviously if you are at your limit for 20 mins you couldn't do 30. Making the most' of an interval depends on all sorts of things and doesn't always mean going as hard as possible.

Of course that's right, what I was trying badly to point out to the OP was that a 2 x 30 might not be done at the same level as a 20

danowat

markos1963 wrote:

I mean a 2x 20 should be done at around 10TT pace or slightly above to make the most of the interval.

No they shouldn't, 10TT pace is Z5 upwards, 2 x 20's are Z4 workouts.........

petemadoc

danowat wrote:

markos1963 wrote:

I mean a 2x 20 should be done at around 10TT pace or slightly above to make the most of the interval.

No they shouldn't, 10TT pace is Z5 upwards, 2 x 20's are Z4 workouts.........

Above 10TT pace?!?

surely that means you didn't try hard enough in your last TT

markwb79

I thought 2x20 was supposed to be done just below FTP?

saprkzz

The way I have been shown is the effort is the same as what you can sustain for an hour, which for me is Z3 or 4 depending how I am feeling.

Alex_Simmons/RST

Any training description should specify a few things, with duration and intensity being the two primary elements that most matter.

petemadoc

Can someone in the know please clarify exactly how a 2x20 is supposed to be done, with power and just with HR.

The way I've always done it is at 85-90% of max HR as I would in a 10TT, rest for 5 minutes and repeat.

danowat

PeteMadoc wrote:

Can someone in the know please clarify exactly how a 2x20 is supposed to be done, with power and just with HR.

The way I've always done it is at 85-90% of max HR as I would in a 10TT, rest for 5 minutes and repeat.

Depends how you are doing them, I'd say 10TT pace is too hard for a 2 x 20, and they should be done just under FTP (hour power) although some people swear by doing them at sweet spot (88-93%FTP).

Not a fan of HR myself so I would never use HR to judge the effort of an interval as short as 20mins......

Tom Dean

PeteMadoc wrote:

Can someone in the know please clarify exactly how a 2x20 is supposed to be done, with power and just with HR.

AARGH! there is no 'supposed to' - it depends!

PeteMadoc wrote:

Above 10TT pace?!?

surely that means you didn't try hard enough in your last TT

correct, but

PeteMadoc wrote:

The way I've always done it is at 85-90% of max HR as I would in a 10TT, rest for 5 minutes and repeat.

neither did you

petemadoc

OK OK in a real TT I would aim to hold about 85-90% but then go over towards the end.

danowat

PeteMadoc wrote:

OK OK in a real TT I would aim to hold about 85-90% but then go over towards the end.

I can easily average 95% MHR in a 10........

I wonder if you could push a little harder? :?:

Alex_Simmons/RST

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

Any training description should specify a few things, with duration and intensity being the two primary elements that most matter.

and the intensity(ies) chosen for the duration is a function of:
i. what your purpose for the training session is, and
ii. whether it's actually achievable

For many, the 2 or 3 x 15-30 minute interval session is one typically ridden at Coggan Level 4 during the interval effort as the primary purpose of the session is to target adaptations that support improvement in sustainable aerobic power.

If performed above FTP (e.g. at 10-mile TT power), one needs to be careful how such intervals are dosed as that tends to stray into a power range which can lead to a plateau both physically and mentally due to the taxing nature of efforts performed above FTP, and the shorter time course for adaptations at such power (IOW the efforts place an increased emphasis on development of VO2max and anaerobic capacity).

As a rule of thumb to start with, I suggest doing intervals at ~ 90% of your mean maximal power for the duration being targeted, unless you are targeting peak power such as sprinting when "all out" is most desirable (and you are not using power as a guide in any case).

petemadoc

danowat wrote:

PeteMadoc wrote:

OK OK in a real TT I would aim to hold about 85-90% but then go over towards the end.

I can easily average 95% MHR in a 10........

I wonder if you could push a little harder? :?:

I could always try

My max is 203, resting 52 so we're looking at holding 195 for 20+ minutes. I'll give it a go but if I blow up I'm blaming you!

danowat

PeteMadoc wrote:

I could always try

I'm not saying you aren't trying!

Toks

Do some searching, At what intensity to ride 2 x 20's is a common question? For me if I'm doing 1-2 a week with lots of outdoor riding I hit them hard at 100% of my best 1 hour power. If I'm stuck indoors throughout January I may do up to 4 or 5 but I'd be riding them at 85-92% of my best 1 hour power.
http://www.timetriallingforum.co.uk/ind ... opic=68327

markos1963

I'm the perfect example of a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing! In my defense I was told to do the 2x20s in that way by a Level 2 coach. It's no wonder then that I could never do them properly for 20 mins each straight off, having to build up from 2x10m adding a minute a week until I could.
I'll get my coat then...

danowat

markos1963 wrote:

IIn my defense I was told to do the 2x20s in that way by a Level 2 coach.

Hmmm, I am curious now as to who that was!

markos1963

danowat wrote:

markos1963 wrote:

IIn my defense I was told to do the 2x20s in that way by a Level 2 coach.

Hmmm, I am curious now as to who that was!

You'll be pleased to hear it wasn't yours