Banesto and Conconi

rick_chasey

Rich again demonstrating why he'll never be a historian.

RichN95.

Rick Chasey wrote:

Rich again demonstrating why he'll never be a historian.

I know this about history - you can rewrite it, but you can't change it.

rick_chasey

No. But shouting who cares isn't going to further our understanding of what happened in the past, right?

RichN95.

Rick Chasey wrote:

No. But shouting who cares isn't going to further our understanding of what happened in the past, right?

And, beyond voyeurism, what new understanding are you going to get from someone who retired 17 years ago? He'a ancient history. It's like asking Alexander Graham Bell for his input on an iPhone.

salsiccia1

RichN95 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

No. But shouting who cares isn't going to further our understanding of what happened in the past, right?

And, beyond voyeurism, what new understanding are you going to get from someone who retired 17 years ago? He'a ancient history. It's like asking Alexander Graham Bell for his input on an iPhone.

Spot on IMHO. We're not going to learn anything more from something going on 20 years ago that we're not already learning.

dave_1

greasedscotsman wrote:

andyp wrote:

I kind of agree. But the same management team behind Banesto are still very active within the sport, I think that's more where my issue with this lies.

That's fair enough, so target any investigation around him and the rest of the management team.

Very good point. Eusebio Unzue, Dr Sabino Padila active in sport...if they were doping him it would be beneficial to current genation to have them stopped or banned like Celaya, Pepe, Michele...
Miguel's doping dr? http://www.alwaysonthemove.me/Interview ... ion_b.html

rick_chasey

RichN95 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

No. But shouting who cares isn't going to further our understanding of what happened in the past, right?

And, beyond voyeurism, what new understanding are you going to get from someone who retired 17 years ago? He'a ancient history. It's like asking Alexander Graham Bell for his input on an iPhone.

Sport is by definition pretty voyeuristic. That's kinda the point.

Who said it needed to help anything, other than be interesting?

There's nothing wrong with wanting to find out what happened in the past accurately as possible .

Why does it need to be justified within an anti doping context??

It puts the racing we saw into more (accurate) context - a different context to the one we thought at the time.

RichN95.

Rick Chasey wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

No. But shouting who cares isn't going to further our understanding of what happened in the past, right?

And, beyond voyeurism, what new understanding are you going to get from someone who retired 17 years ago? He'a ancient history. It's like asking Alexander Graham Bell for his input on an iPhone.

Sport is by definition pretty voyeuristic. That's kinda the point.

Who said it needed to help anything, other than be interesting?

There's nothing wrong with wanting to find out what happened in the past accurately as possible .

Why does it need to be justified within an anti doping context??

It puts the racing we saw into more (accurate) context - a different context to the one we thought at the time.

Here's the context: a lot a of cyclists in the 90s took EPO. You don't need to investigate Indurain to find that out. Or do you want the likes of Bugno, Rominger, Virenque and Chiappucci declared the true winners.

If you spend to much time and money pursuing the past which you can't change, you lose sight of the future which you can. There's no point investigating twenty year old events when you can't even be bothered to ask Fuentes for his client list.

It's like in the book/film High Fidelity where the main character obsesses over the (ultimately trivial) reasons why long past relationships failed to the extent that effects his present and future.

rick_chasey

Pfft. If someone wants to say, then let them say it.

I find it interesting and that's the same reason I watch cycling.

I'm not interested in stripping titles or anything likd that. I'm just interested in pro cycling from all sides and I feel this was a massive side that we missed out on. The best bit about Hamilton's book was trying to piece together how the doping side affected performances. He used epo for this race but only blood bag for that etc etc.

sherer

RichN95 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

No. But shouting who cares isn't going to further our understanding of what happened in the past, right?

And, beyond voyeurism, what new understanding are you going to get from someone who retired 17 years ago? He'a ancient history. It's like asking Alexander Graham Bell for his input on an iPhone.

Sport is by definition pretty voyeuristic. That's kinda the point.

Who said it needed to help anything, other than be interesting?

There's nothing wrong with wanting to find out what happened in the past accurately as possible .

Why does it need to be justified within an anti doping context??

It puts the racing we saw into more (accurate) context - a different context to the one we thought at the time.

Here's the context: a lot a of cyclists in the 90s took EPO. You don't need to investigate Indurain to find that out. Or do you want the likes of Bugno, Rominger, Virenque and Chiappucci declared the true winners.

If you spend to much time and money pursuing the past which you can't change, you lose sight of the future which you can. There's no point investigating twenty year old events when you can't even be bothered to ask Fuentes for his client list.

It's like in the book/film High Fidelity where the main character obsesses over the (ultimately trivial) reasons why long past relationships failed to the extent that effects his present and future.

I think the ASO have shown with LA that they won't award the title to whoever was second or third

deejay

RichN95 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

No. But shouting who cares isn't going to further our understanding of what happened in the past, right?

And, beyond voyeurism, what new understanding are you going to get from someone who retired 17 years ago? He'a ancient history. It's like asking Alexander Graham Bell for his input on an iPhone.

I care and want to see any proof about the early EPO takers including a possible Indurain involvement.
I note the most enthusiastic posts on this thread are people who are still trying to Justify how badly that Armstrong has been dealt with and will throw as much innuendo to prove (in their minds) that the poor soul did nothing worse than his predecessors. ie throw enough MUD (or shyte) and something might stick somewhere.
The Damnation of Armstrong is completed by his own countrymen and their statement

The evidence shows beyond any doubt that the US Postal Service Pro Cycling Team ran the most sophisticated, professionalized and successful doping program that sport has ever seen.

So plead your case elsewhere.

Now "On Topic" today at Noon this exciting thread is posted and already on it's third page with the OP "Timoid" finding the treasure which is old hat and been in Wiki for years.

Wiki wrote:

At the Winter Olympics in 1993/94 in Lillehammer, Conconi gave a talk to members of the International Olympic Committee and informed them about his work on an EPO test. He described how he had carried out controlled experiments with 23 amateur triathletes and other athletes with EPO treatments but that he had not come up with a test to detect EPO use. The details of Conconi's 23 amateur athletes were later discovered by police after a raid at the University of Ferrara and that there were no 23 amateurs but elite professionals, six of which were from the Carrera Jeans-Tassoni cycling team.Conconi had listed subjects' names, gender, sport, date of analysis as well as whether or not they were treated with EPO. Despite funding by CONI and the IOC to come up with an EPO detection test, Conconi was using the money to buy the drug and then administered it to athletes who were also paying Conconi. Conconi is said to have made a technique to balance EPO, Blood Thinner and Human Growth Hormone in a mixture that Athletes could take safely and pass doping tests without testing positive. With this ability to safely take EPO, Donati estimated that 60 to 70% of the peloton used EPO in the mid-1990s.

My contention from what I have seen within this time period is that Conconi was a respected Professor when the Banesto bus was seen in the UNI of Ferrara and Indurain took the tests in 1992/3. :?:
In those years the Italians ganged up on him and would not work if Bugno got away and Indurain could be seen waving his arms in disgust at them and so he puts a bigger gear on, in the valley and gets in TT mode and drags Bugno back. He did the same when the GC contenders took turns to attack but his steady grinding would bring them back each time.
Then in the 1994 Giro d'Italia it was EPO or not, with Berzin and Argentin Gwiss knocking the shyte out of Indurain to bring him to his knees and knackered at the top of one stage. His dominance was gone and Berzin beat him in the TT. ?
Next Bjarne Riis showed Indurain what he was missing (EPO that is) in 1996 and Mig retired because of that lesson.
So at the end of the Indurain career you can see the effect of EPO or not.
This factual evidence is more valuable than any Hearsay evidence so carry on playing.

My argument is reliant on Indurain not being one of those 23 (like Stephen Roche) and only had advice about body weight and training.

So yes I do care since I saw that greedy idiot Bjarne Riis ponce about the mountains in 1996 as some poor soul had to retire in the cold pouring rain that year.
I didn't have to wait 17 years to finally have Riis and later Armstrong uncovered as Lying Cheats and Frauds.
I wait for new evidence about Indurain and nobody has yet produced it after 17 years of digging and searching.

I see the Armstrong Fanboys have started yet another thread about the one and only poor old Texan being the same as other doped up TDF winners. Shame they can't get off Planet Armstrong and into the real world.
Former team mate "Heras" DQ in the Vuelta and his team mates Hamilton & Landis were banned but the Fanboy Dreamers ignore these facts and want the sport ruined even more.
Keep throwing the shyte and some might yet stick somewhere.

dolan_driver

There is possibly some merit in letting sleeping dogs lie with regard to Miguel Indurain, given how long ago his reign in the Tour was. Maybe we should only look back to 1999 and leave it at that. Or maybe we should go back to the start of the perceived EPO era from around 1990 and move forward from there. The reason why the investigation into doping in cycling should span the entire EPO era can be found in the following video. Guys like Edwig Van Hooydonck deserve some justice.

I don't speak Flemish but I think we all know what is being said here. A powerful piece of video from someone who we now know to be one of the true legends of cycling. (The reaction of the gentleman sitting at the bar at 1:14 says it all.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y40UjVlRAWg

Can you imagine the amazing legacy of the sport of cycling if the peloton always had the integrity of Edwig Van Hooydonck?

DD.

RichN95.

Dolan Driver wrote:

There is possibly some merit in letting sleeping dogs lie with regard to Miguel Indurain, given how long ago his reign in the Tour was. Maybe we should only look back to 1999 and leave it at that. Or maybe we should go back to the start of the perceived EPO era from around 1990 and move forward from there. The reason why the investigation into doping in cycling should span the entire EPO era can be found in the following video. Guys like Edwig Van Hooydonck deserve some justice.

And what justice do you want for him? He made a living from cycling for a decade, won a lot of races and then moved into politics. He's done alright for himself. Most people have to do crappy jobs for a living. So maybe he didn't get all the money he could have got for being born with big lungs - but hey, that's life. No-one's owed a living.
Or maybe we should find some ex-Banesto domestique who doped for a few years in the early 90s and now works on a building site and take his house off him and give it to EVH. Because if not, EVH's life isn't going to change one iota.

For two decades cycling and EPO/blood doping went hand in hand. EPO was cycling. No amount of bowdlerising the sport's history is going to change that. If you keep dredging thorough scandal from a time half of you never even witnessed, you'll just go mad. It's better just to draw a line (8 years is about right - two Olympic cycles) and say 'well that was just the way it was'

Rundfahrt

deejay wrote:

The evidence shows beyond any doubt that the US Postal Service Pro Cycling Team ran the most sophisticated, professionalized and successful doping program that sport has ever seen.

My favorite moronic quote in all of these doping cases.

Perhaps Travis needs to read up on East Germany.

mididoctors

andyp wrote:

I kind of agree. But the same management team behind Banesto are still very active within the sport, I think that's more where my issue with this lies.

this



anybody still connected with the sport... that would include merckx

mididoctors

Rundfahrt wrote:

deejay wrote:

The evidence shows beyond any doubt that the US Postal Service Pro Cycling Team ran the most sophisticated, professionalized and successful doping program that sport has ever seen.

My favorite moronic quote in all of these doping cases.

Perhaps Travis needs to read up on East Germany.

I would argue for its size it still was..7tdf in a row but I get the point

mididoctors

deejay wrote:

I note the most enthusiastic posts on this thread are people who are still trying to Justify how badly that Armstrong has been dealt with and will throw as much innuendo to prove (in their minds) that the poor soul did nothing worse than his predecessors.

this is also obviously the case.. I suspect that it will be a attitude they will regret when they get what they wish for.


this issue is not going to go away

sherer

Rundfahrt wrote:

deejay wrote:

The evidence shows beyond any doubt that the US Postal Service Pro Cycling Team ran the most sophisticated, professionalized and successful doping program that sport has ever seen.

My favorite moronic quote in all of these doping cases.

Perhaps Travis needs to read up on East Germany.

The key part is "that sport" not every doping program there ever was. I'm sure Saiz could give them a run for their money though

iainf72

sherer wrote:

The key part is "that sport" not every doping program there ever was. I'm sure Saiz could give them a run for their money though

Quite. Especially as USPS was basically modelled on his teams. Perhaps with a less caring and nurturing environment

And the Chinese doping regime beats all of these combined

timoid.

deejay wrote:

Rant

I have no idea what your point is, but beer and forum posting isn't always the best combination.

bompington

I love The random Capitals

timoid.

Rick has the right of it. I follow this sport for entertainment and like to to know stuff. Therefore I'd like to know what went on with Banesto in the early nineties.

I like Indurain, he was a true gent and I prefer him as a champion than the likes of Rominger, Chiapucci, Bugno and Berzin. But to think he did it clean is laughable.

timoid.

repost

RoadPainter

I don't see much reason going back to before 99. For those who want full justice in cycling, then why not look at yourselves too? I have never lied, embellished or told tall stories in a job interview, but most people do. Should they have their jobs taken away?

wallace_and_gromit

mididoctors wrote:

Rundfahrt wrote:

deejay wrote:

The evidence shows beyond any doubt that the US Postal Service Pro Cycling Team ran the most sophisticated, professionalized and successful doping program that sport has ever seen.

My favorite moronic quote in all of these doping cases.

Perhaps Travis needs to read up on East Germany.

I would argue for its size it still was..7tdf in a row but I get the point

But Travis didn't qualify his statement relative to size. His was an absolute claim, which is quite laughable when you think what the East Germans - particularly their female swimmers, rowers and speedskaters - did for two decades.

wallace_and_gromit

Timoid. wrote:

Rick has the right of it. I follow this sport for entertainment and like to to know stuff. Therefore I'd like to know what went on with Banesto in the early nineties.

For me, the biggest unanswered question is when Mig turned to the dark side of blood doping. He clearly wasn't in 1988 (47th in the Tour) probably wasn't in 1989 (17th in the Tour) but equally clearly was by 1994 (see YouTube of Hautacam stage) and most likely was in 92 and 93 to do the Double.

The grey area is 1990 and 1991 (10th and Winner of Tour respectively). Did he achieve these without blood-doping, in which case, a study of why he is almost unique in showing GT-winning potential without blood-doping for the first time aged 26 would be fascinating. Or was he an early dabbler with EPO, taking to 92/93 to yield the major benefits?

Bo Duke

Sometimes it's best to let sleeping dogs lie. Pun intended/unintended - take your pick.

I see no point in persuing this investigation, it will achieve little. Hopefully the peloton has been suitably rattled now to preclude doping for some time. Insh'allah.

johnboy183

I really don't know where to draw a line, today, last year, 10 years ago? But my one concern with a statute of limitations(as I understand it), would be surely that winning money at a race and then earning sponsorship deals of the back of it, is tantamount to theft or fraud or whatever. Surely there is no SoL on this?

OfficerDigby

Big Mig really was TOO BIG to have done what he did without enhancements.

80kg or so wasn't he. I.e. Wiggo before his blubber cut.

I remember all the articles quibbling about his freaky lung capacity and all that nonsense...

Guilty by association, by culture and by reality check IMO.

andyp

80 kgs and 1m 90 tall and yet he could drop a juiced Pantani.

He clearly wasn't doped.