Wide Rim Chinese Wheels

zebwach

Hello everyone,

I currently own a Cube Agree GTC Pro and am in need of some new wheels. Iv been reading around the copious amount of threads/reviews on the subject for months and have 100% decided on a set of 38f/50r carbon clinchers from www.yishunbike.com

I had decided on their CP model as even though the CN and CP series both have a 105 kg max rider weight limit (I am 90 kg), I have been led to believe that a 'j' spoke pattern as found on the CP series is stronger than the CN series straight pull design. Is this true? Strength and durability is a priority over outright speed in this instance.

I was all ready to click the buy button (or in this case Paypal the money), when I noticed the new 2013 wide rim option which is available in 44mm and 50mm. I intend on using the wheels for long rides and a few sportives a year involving all types of terrain. I have already found out that they are stronger and have a max rider limit of 115 kg. My questions to you 3rd party experts are these:-

www.yishunbike.com/2013-carbon-wider-ri ... 8_399.html

Will they be more or less comfortable?
Will they still accept a 23mm tyre?
Will they be more aerodynamic?

Thank you in advance for your help.

Zach

ugo.santalucia

zebwach wrote:

I had decided on their CP model as even though the CN and CP series both have a 105 kg max rider weight limit (I am 90 kg), I have been led to believe that a 'j' spoke pattern as found on the CP series is stronger than the CN series straight pull design. Is this true? Strength and durability is a priority over outright speed in this instance.


Zach

J bend and straight pull both have their advantages and drawbacks... for bladed spokes, there is nothing wrong with straight pull... for round spokes, it is a very stupid idea as they seize in the nipple and there is no practical way to true a wheel, when the spoke keeps spining in the flange (see Easton EA 90 SLX for instance). Straight pull have been marketed as an upgrade, as J spokes tend to fatigue and fail and the bend...
Hard line is, straight pull fatigue and fail at a different spot...

J bend spokes are more mainstream, ready available or easier to source as spares in all sizes... straight pull are less so. Often come in big and expensive boxes, and shops don't want to spend 100 pounds for a box to fix your broken spoke, hence they tell you off...

allmountain76

If you are using them for hilly Sportives with big descents be careful with the clinchers. Some of the resins used aren't up to handling the heat generated during braking and the wheels delaminate or warp quite readily. I've had a set from "XLR8" which were branded Gigantex rims supposedly out of the same door as Reynolds and a riding pal had some "Most" branded Chinese wheels. Both suffered serious warping, mine coming down Kirkstone at 40mph plus. Both were down to poor resin / thin rim wall construction. Both wheels were used with the supplied pads from the manufacturer. Both sets were sent back for warranty and both were never seen again. The Most set is currently in dispute with ebay but I'm not hopeful given their Chinese origin.

IMO, you're better buying some good alloy aeros (American Classic are pretty comparable on weight) or go for something with a proper warranty back up.

After my experience I'm currently saving for some Cosmic Carbone SLR'S (alloy braking surface but full carbon look. The only full carbons I'd even consider are Zipp Firecrests after reading their R and D stuff on resins. The other brands as far as I'm concerned all use a generic carbon epoxy resin that doesnt handle the braking heat build up.

Of course, tubulars avoid most of these issues due to their wall profile. A disk wheel set up would open up the cheap carbon clincher avenue for me but i'd still be wary of the construction strength after what I've seen.

Just my 2 pence worth.

ugo.santalucia

allmountain76 wrote:

If you are using them for hilly Sportives with big descents be careful with the clinchers. Some of the resins used aren't up to handling the heat generated during braking and the wheels delaminate or warp quite readily. I've had a set from "XLR8" which were branded Gigantex rims supposedly out of the same door as Reynolds and a riding pal had some "Most" branded Chinese wheels. Both suffered serious warping, mine coming down Kirkstone at 40mph plus. Both were down to poor resin / thin rim wall construction. Both wheels were used with the supplied pads from the manufacturer. Both sets were sent back for warranty and both were never seen again. The Most set is currently in dispute with ebay but I'm not hopeful given their Chinese origin.

IMO, you're better buying some good alloy aeros (American Classic are pretty comparable on weight) or go for something with a proper warranty back up.

After my experience I'm currently saving for some Cosmic Carbone SLR'S (alloy braking surface but full carbon look. The only full carbons I'd even consider are Zipp Firecrests after reading their R and D stuff on resins. The other brands as far as I'm concerned all use a generic carbon epoxy resin that doesnt handle the braking heat build up.

Of course, tubulars avoid most of these issues due to their wall profile. A disk wheel set up would open up the cheap carbon clincher avenue for me but i'd still be wary of the construction strength after what I've seen.

Just my 2 pence worth.

It's worth a lot more than 2 pence...

styxd

I think you are looking at the wrong type of wheels for sportives and long rides (assuming you're in the UK?)

allmountain76

In many ways i agree with styx - long sportives would be better served with a low profile type lighter rim - think Mavic R-sys etc.

However, if your riding is mixed (some flatter races) and flatter sportives as well then you can get away with an aero, all be it compromised on the big climbs.

Having said that, I'll be riding the Fred Whitton this year on Cosmic Cabones because they look incredible against my Ti frame and that's worth at least 100 watts all day long. ;-)

styxd

I hope its not raining for you! A couple of years ago it didn't stop raining, there were a few hospital cases on the hills, don't know if they were using carbon rims or not. Wouldnt fancy it. Descending Wrynose is scary enough with brakes that work!

allmountain76

Yep, i was there, saw one guy take himself out half way down Honister in the wet. Hence the other reason for going for Carbone SlR's over another set of full carbons - alloy exalith brake track.....

styxd

Phew. Best of both worlds then. You can look cool and still manage to stop for flap jack.

iPete

If you want them for aero, stop there if you want them cos they look good, that's a better reason but Chinese carbon clincher and reliable don't sound like something that mixes well?

If you want a better ride get some lightweight shallow alloy rims made up, consider wider rims also and stick some decent tubes and tyres on. Off the peg American classic look to offer the best depth vs weight.

allmountain76

styxd wrote:

Phew. Best of both worlds then. You can look cool and still manage to stop for flap jack.

All requirements covered...

zebwach

Wow, thanks very much for your feedback and advice. I have seen similar comments before however. I live in Lincoln, England and do most of my riding around here. The few hills that are around, I rarely use my brakes when descending so I didn't think these resin issues would be a major problem with me. As long as they can take a bump from the occasional pothole that I fail to spot then I thought Id be ok? I say this, but my first sportive of the year is the Exmore Beauty and the Beast challenge. This will obviously be quite hilly.

I have sieved through all the threads and feedback I can find regarding the reliability of these chinese carbon wheels. Unless people simply aren't giving negative feedback (he says with 2 out of 3 comments in his own thread being negative!), the failure percentage of numbers sold (3500+ items from Yishun alone) seems to be incredibly low and certainly no less than main stream manufactures. Iv had DT Swiss wheels fora year and in that time have had 3 services on the hubs.

I have also been led to believe that the addition of the basalt braking surface and cork pads drastically reduces temperature build up on the rim.

Yishun also supply an ali rim wheel which carries a weight penalty above the 1430g carbon equivalent. Would you recommend this instead?

On a side note, Im also ordering a carbon seat post. My standard one is 27.2mm with a 31.8mm clamp. The smallest diameter one they supply is 31.6mm. Will this fit my Cube GTC frame?

styxd

What happens if its raining or wet when you come to ride your sportive? Would you have a different set of wheels you can use?

ugo.santalucia

zebwach wrote:

Wow, thanks very much for your feedback and advice. I have seen similar comments before however. I live in Lincoln, England and do most of my riding around here. The few hills that are around, I rarely use my brakes when descending so I didn't think these resin issues would be a major problem with me. As long as they can take a bump from the occasional pothole that I fail to spot then I thought Id be ok? I say this, but my first sportive of the year is the Exmore Beauty and the Beast challenge. This will obviously be quite hilly.

I have sieved through all the threads and feedback I can find regarding the reliability of these chinese carbon wheels. Unless people simply aren't giving negative feedback (he says with 2 out of 3 comments in his own thread being negative!), the failure percentage of numbers sold (3500+ items from Yishun alone) seems to be incredibly low and certainly no less than main stream manufactures. Iv had DT Swiss wheels fora year and in that time have had 3 services on the hubs.

I have also been led to believe that the addition of the basalt braking surface and cork pads drastically reduces temperature build up on the rim.

Yishun also supply an ali rim wheel which carries a weight penalty above the 1430g carbon equivalent. Would you recommend this instead?

On a side note, Im also ordering a carbon seat post. My standard one is 27.2mm with a 31.8mm clamp. The smallest diameter one they supply is 31.6mm. Will this fit my Cube GTC frame?

The review system is not perfect... most people will give a positive feedback and make a review within the first week of receiving the item. I suppose unless the item is faulty, it is difficult to spot severe drawbacks within that time lapse. Retailers pressure you to leave a quick review, which obviously is going to be positive, because we are a nice lot and we feel guilty to give a bad or mediocre one.
My main issue with products bought on Ebay from China is that the warranty has no value whatsoever. I bought hubs from China and was told that building them into a wheel would invalidate the warranty... see if that makes sense to you... :shock:

zebwach

I am going for the deeper profile for added strength. They are still around the 1400g area so still not very heavy at all.

Again, I have also noted from feedback of the basalt brake surface, that wet braking is now no longer an issue. Can any one with a set dispute this? I was going to use them as my only wheel, for the commute to work and everything.

Does any one have any knowledge or info about the pro's and cons of the wider rim as mentioned in the initial post?

Thank you for your comments

pkripper

Genuinely, the weight of the wheel wouldn't be my concern. I personally won't ride Zipps due to an issue i had with mine, so they got binned. Equally, I have some carbon rims made by Trek / bontrager - I kind of trust them but only for racing. That's racing, not sportives.

I reckon wet braking will always be an issue on carbon rims compared with a good pad on an alloy rim, it may be resolved further down the track, but I don't think they're there yet. As an everyday wheel, I see no point in carbon rims yet as they're still comparatively fragile.

If you want chinese carbon wheels, by all means go for it - your money after all.

zebwach

Well thats 100% negative and 0% positive feedback on the idea of going chinese! Id be a fool not to pay attention! Right, back to the drawing board!

In one hours time I shall be ordering new wheels one way or another. Im off work today and need them prompto as my current set is out of action due to another seized hub.

Im 90-95 kg. I want to use them everyday for everything including 100 mile sportives. I want reliable easy to maintain hubs. Light weight is the priority over aero, but they have to be strong. £360 is my absolute max budget. What would you recommend?

My current favorite contender are this:-

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Mode ... elID=76735

Any advances?

Zach

styxd

Get in touch with just riding along and get them to build you some Hope Hubs on Velocity A23 rims (or similar) with suitable spokes.

ugo.santalucia

zebwach wrote:

Well thats 100% negative and 0% positive feedback on the idea of going chinese! Id be a fool not to pay attention! Right, back to the drawing board!

In one hours time I shall be ordering new wheels one way or another. Im off work today and need them prompto as my current set is out of action due to another seized hub.

Im 90-95 kg. I want to use them everyday for everything including 100 mile sportives. I want reliable easy to maintain hubs. Light weight is the priority over aero, but they have to be strong. £360 is my absolute max budget. What would you recommend?

My current favorite contender are this:-

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Mode ... elID=76735

Any advances?

Zach

Hubs can be un-seized... seems like you need an excuse to buy new wheels...

zebwach

styxd wrote:

Get in touch with just riding along and get them to build you some Hope Hubs on Velocity A23 rims (or similar) with suitable spokes.

Please elaborate. What is so good about this composition of wheel? Why does it suit my needs?

Thank you.

styxd

Very reliable, reasonable weight, suitable for your weight, easy to service, easy to repair.

zebwach

ugo.santalucia wrote:

zebwach wrote:

Well thats 100% negative and 0% positive feedback on the idea of going chinese! Id be a fool not to pay attention! Right, back to the drawing board!

In one hours time I shall be ordering new wheels one way or another. Im off work today and need them prompto as my current set is out of action due to another seized hub.

Im 90-95 kg. I want to use them everyday for everything including 100 mile sportives. I want reliable easy to maintain hubs. Light weight is the priority over aero, but they have to be strong. £360 is my absolute max budget. What would you recommend?

My current favorite contender are this:-

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Mode ... elID=76735

Any advances?

Zach

Hubs can be un-seized... seems like you need an excuse to buy new wheels...

They have seized three times in the year that I have had them. I think they are damaged inside as the rear is very grindy and doesn't spin for very long. They are the standard ones that came with the bike and I have a few 100 milers planed for the year. Apparantly upgraded wheels is the best improvement that can be had, so I think I deserve a treat!

zebwach

styxd wrote:

Very reliable, reasonable weight, suitable for your weight, easy to service, easy to repair.

Nice one. I shall phone them now and enquire some more!

I assume you consider them to be a superior option to the Shimano RS80 C24's?

ugo.santalucia

zebwach wrote:

I assume you consider them to be a superior option to the Shimano RS80 C24's?

Yes, we do!
And if they offer you a build on H plus Son Archetype rims, that is even better... basically listen to their advice

pkripper

styxd wrote:

Get in touch with just riding along and get them to build you some Hope Hubs on Velocity A23 rims (or similar) with suitable spokes.

My winter wheels are 32 spoked A23's on Ambrosio hubs - good wheels. Add in the extra beef of the hope hubs and that's a set that'll last a while.

the c24's might be a bit too lightweight, and there are hundreds of posts on here as to the pros and cons of them.

allmountain76

Have a shop about and you might find some American Classic Sprint 350's close to your budget. They'd be my choice for your riding and budget.

Ive had good experiences with C24's (All be it 7900 dura ace) although i know some have had issues with RS80's. The dura ace is a very similar wheel.

The H Plus Son Archetype give you that "all black" look of carbon including the brake track and they are really well rated, especially on a set of Ambrosio or Hope hubs with some quality spokes and a craftsman builder.

If your using the wheels everyday, including commuting to work etc, forget cheap Chinese..... Get something with brass nipples, standard spokes and well sealed service friendly hubs.

Keith Bontrager......"Pick two... Strong. light. Cheap."

Someone else......."Buy cheap, buy twice."

zebwach

ugo.santalucia wrote:

zebwach wrote:

I assume you consider them to be a superior option to the Shimano RS80 C24's?

Yes, we do!
And if they offer you a build on H plus Son Archetype rims, that is even better... basically listen to their advice

Iv just spoke to them and they were massively helpful and knew there stuff.

They recommended me the following wheels.

Rim - H plus Son Archetype
Spokes - Sapim Race 28 front 32 rear
Hub - either the Hopes or DT Swiss 350's
Weight - 1700 +/- 50 grams

So, its between the above and these,

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Mode ... elID=76735

Any more opinions?

ugo.santalucia

zebwach wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

zebwach wrote:

I assume you consider them to be a superior option to the Shimano RS80 C24's?

Yes, we do!
And if they offer you a build on H plus Son Archetype rims, that is even better... basically listen to their advice

Iv just spoke to them and they were massively helpful and knew there stuff.

They recommended me the following wheels.

Rim - H plus Son Archetype
Spokes - Sapim Race 28 front 32 rear
Hub - either the Hopes or DT Swiss 350's
Weight - 1700 +/- 50 grams

So, its between the above and these,

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Mode ... elID=76735

Any more opinions?

I second their advice... it's pretty much what I would have advised. They will be way stiffer and better than the RS 80, which are not designed for your weight... they will carry it, but they won't perform well or for long.
Both hubs they suggest are excellent quality

zebwach

Ok, the Shimano's are now in the lead as I have just found them for £320 from planet x.

http://www.planet-x-bikes.co.uk/i/q/WPS ... lset_(pair)

They are lighter at 1521g due to a lower spoke count I imagine. What is the maximum rider weight limit of these wheels? Are they suitable for a 90kg rider?

zebwach

ugo.santalucia wrote:

zebwach wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

zebwach wrote:

I assume you consider them to be a superior option to the Shimano RS80 C24's?

Yes, we do!
And if they offer you a build on H plus Son Archetype rims, that is even better... basically listen to their advice

Iv just spoke to them and they were massively helpful and knew there stuff.

They recommended me the following wheels.

Rim - H plus Son Archetype
Spokes - Sapim Race 28 front 32 rear
Hub - either the Hopes or DT Swiss 350's
Weight - 1700 +/- 50 grams

So, its between the above and these,

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Mode ... elID=76735

Any more opinions?

I second their advice... it's pretty much what I would have advised. They will be way stiffer and better than the RS 80, which are not designed for your weight... they will carry it, but they won't perform well or for long.
Both hubs they suggest are excellent quality

You answered my question as I was typing it! Thank you.

zebwach

I have just spoke to Planet X regarding the RS80's. They inform me that the rider max weight limit of these wheels is 100kg and that they have had 0 returns or faulty items. Im not disbelieving advice given to me, but its hard to argue with facts. Im confused again and my hour has just ran out! I may aswel flip a coin!