Hydralic Road Brakes

springtide9

bernithebiker wrote:

springtide9 wrote:

I can't wait!

Road brakes are rubbish:
- they don't stop properly either in the dry or wet (can't get close to using the available 'grip' to stop quickly)
- wear the rims on my expensive wheels
- cover the whole bike on black soot.

Personally I'd happy to put up with a little bit of extra weight for a maintenance free brake solution. Many other people will state that the current road brakes are 'good enough' for a road bike, which is obviously their preference.

As at least one person has previously previously stated, the amount of weight will be fairly minimal. Disc brakes have got considerably lighter over the last few years so we are not exactly talking huge quantities.

Anyway, the road disc brake ball is now rolling.. and even the traditional Italian manufacturers are running with the ball.. .. so it's only a matter of time.

I'm intrigued to see what they can come up with. I reckon the weight penalty would be around 2 to 300g, so not enormous. (+75g hub, +80g disc, +50g lever/reservoir, +50g wheel/spokes)

It would be especially useful for those of us who use carbon rims which don't brake very well, especially in the wet.

After last year's Etape, where my descents were super slow due to poor wet braking, I could be a potential customer, but I really don't need a disc on the rear wheel - just complicates things for no reason.

As with so many things like this, you'd be better off waiting for the 2nd or 3rd iteration so that they can iron out the bugs.

I agree. I think by the time they are on the 2nd iteration they'll have the technology sorted.
'Disc rubbing' will cause most road users to have sense of humour failure. On newer (decent) MTB discs brakes this is much less of an issue and I'm sure the designers already know this from reading the internet forums on this topic!

One of the big downsides of running carbon wheels appear to be the braking surfaces... Like any technology, there might be several knock-on effects of moving to disc brakes.... and maybe carbon rims might become more popular (like what's happened with carbon frames)

Who knows....

The good news is that I'm sure people who want to buy road bikes with traditional brakes will still have this option for many years; and the people who want disc brakes also have options. So a win, win for all!

tiredofwhiners

Flasher wrote:

Can't say that I've ever needed anymore braking power

Spot on - current brakes are more than capable of stopping anyone dead in their tracks, or over the handlebars so for most bikes they are completely unnecessary. A bit like electronic shifting.

Just because you can do something, doesn't mean that you should.

styxd

They look awful. Most people buy their bikes on looks alone. They won't sell.

iPete

tiredofwhiners wrote:

Flasher wrote:

Can't say that I've ever needed anymore braking power

Spot on - current brakes are more than capable of stopping anyone dead in their tracks, or over the handlebars so for most bikes they are completely unnecessary. A bit like electronic shifting.

Just because you can do something, doesn't mean that you should.

just because they work for you/where you ride, doesn't mean it is the same for everyone else

bernithebiker

tiredofwhiners wrote:

Flasher wrote:

Can't say that I've ever needed anymore braking power

Spot on - current brakes are more than capable of stopping anyone dead in their tracks, or over the handlebars so for most bikes they are completely unnecessary. A bit like electronic shifting.

This is not correct if you ride carbon rims. Braking is average at the best of time, downright poor in the wet.

springtide9

tiredofwhiners wrote:

Flasher wrote:

Can't say that I've ever needed anymore braking power

Spot on - current brakes are more than capable of stopping anyone dead in their tracks, or over the handlebars so for most bikes they are completely unnecessary. A bit like electronic shifting.
Just because you can do something, doesn't mean that you should.

I would state that just because you believe you don't need any more stopping power, it doesn't mean that more wouldn't help.

I personally find road brakes absolute rubbish. A friend described them as a 'pull and hope' at best in the dry, and 'pull and pray' in the wet!

styxd wrote:

They look awful. Most people buy their bikes on looks alone. They won't sell.

I think that's your opinion (and the opinion of many others)... but it's not the only opinion.

I don't believe they look awful... I actually like them. They also have at least one customer, me !

But as I said above.... no one will force you to buy disc brakes, so we are all winners!

greasedscotsman

springtide9 wrote:

styxd wrote:

They look awful. Most people buy their bikes on looks alone. They won't sell.

I think that's your opinion (and the opinion of many others)... but it's not the only opinion.

I don't believe they look awful... I actually like them. They also have at least one customer, me !

Not sure about the Formula shifters on the C59.





Di2 units on the Giant CX bike look good though.

diy

Maximum braking is achieved by progressively applying force as the mass shifts forward. Just because a wheel locks up doesn't mean that you have had the max braking force, it means that you applied more demand for grip that could currently be achieved.

Its all well defined science:
http://www.dinamoto.it/dinamoto/8_on-li ... new.htm#A2

Ideally to get the best out of brakes, you apply front, followed by rear, followed by more front, followed by less rear followed by less front as the bike comes to a stop. Quite hard to learn, but something that is taught to learner motorcyclists in a lesser form. Pretty hard to do with mechanical rim brakes, with soft rubber pads.

bernithebiker

diy wrote:

Maximum braking is achieved by progressively applying force as the mass shifts forward. Just because a wheel locks up doesn't mean that you have had the max braking force, it means that you applied more demand for grip that could currently be achieved.

Its all well defined science:
http://www.dinamoto.it/dinamoto/8_on-li ... new.htm#A2

Ideally to get the best out of brakes, you apply front, followed by rear, followed by more front, followed by less rear followed by less front as the bike comes to a stop. Quite hard to learn, but something that is taught to learner motorcyclists in a lesser form.

Indeed. And this is why a disc on the back is superfluous, IMO. As for the front, more braking power can only be a good thing (as long as it's well modulated).

slowbike

I had the option of going for (mech) disc brakes for my new CX - I stayed away from them because with rim brakes the wheels were interchangeable with the other bikes in the family - all with rim brakes ...

Only had a couple of instances where the brakes just weren't powerful enough - fortunately no damage to anyone or anything - so disc brakes are of interest - but as said above - will wait for a few years for problems to be ironed out and the good tech to come down to a suitable price.

cougie

andyp wrote:

cougie wrote:

I watched the cross world champs on C4 the other weekend and I didn't see anyone with disc brakes.
If the pros aren't on them and they get bikes for free - why should we shift to them ?

You weren't paying enough attention, a number of riders were using discs.

Ok two US riders were using them. But the vast majority weren't.


I don't see them becoming popular on the road unless someone wins the Tour with them. Then they'll sell like hot cakes.

pilot_pete

I've got road bikes with rim brakes on alloy rims and carbon rims. Alloy stop just fine with quality pads in the dry and the wet. Carbon rims stopped fine in the dry, pretty poorly in the wet, but the rim surface started to delaminate due to the dry braking force being applied on long descents.

I bought a winter bike in September last year; it is a cross model with disc brakes. I specifically wanted discs on my winter bike due to two factors where they are far superior; wet braking performance and longevity of the rims in all that crap.

The brakes are Avid BB5s, which are cable operated. Again, I specifically wanted cable, not hydraulic for ease and simplicity of use/ maintenance. They have proved to be everything I wanted. Stopping is superb in both dry and wet conditions. They are easy to set up, despite what I have read. You get the odd 'tinker', but a quick gentle application resets the pads and eliminates this. I could not be doing with constant squeeking/ binding disc brakes! They squeeled for part of one ride until they bedded themselves in and are now silent in use. The levers are just standard being cable operated, so no issues with looks or ergonomics. I cannot see any further added benefit to having hydraulic brakes, apart perhaps from the cable getting old and sticky eventually. But I guess with hydraulics the pipes/ unions etc will eventually corrode/ age and need swapping anyhow.

The only downside I have experienced is more of a design issue with the specific bike, and that is that the front forks had no mudguard mounts, whereas the rear stays did. This meant I had to fabricate mounts using a 'P' clip on one side and some imaginative bending and mounting onto the lower calliper bolt on the other.

I think as the technology moves on much smaller callipers than my BB5s, with smaller discs offering the same stopping performance will become available. Put these with a carbon rim and you'll get a fantastic wheel, similar in weight to what is available today with alloy rims, yet with the benefits mentioned above. I for one would be interested in such a pair of wheels.....but of course I'd need a new summer bike to accommodate discs!

PP

diy

Doing a brake bleed is really no harder than changing the cable on your cable brakes. Most cable brakes need regular adjustment as the surface wears down, maybe its more noticeable on MTB, where you use your brakes a lot more (probably). The Major advantage of hydraulic brakes is the control you get and the fact that they will always rest 1/2mm from the disc. As I look at my road bike now, there is at least 3mm of slack each side to take up before I get any braking.

I reckon something in the region of 90mm to 110mm is probably the target size to aim for and perhaps twin discs up front might simplify the hub and fork design issues. The whole lot could be operated from a single lever.

philwint

Another plus side is that hydraulic disk brakes are that they are fit and forget. I have had one tinker - caused by me messing up a brake pad change) in 11 years with my Hope mini's on my MTB. That did involve a bleed.

On the road bikes I am forever having to re-set every couple of weeks to allow for pad wear.

so in my opinion - if they can keep the weight penalty down to a couple of 100 grams I think they would be a very attractive prospect.

iPete

I'd have no issues running a disc on my fixie, even the new bb7 roadie mechanical is tempting.

Matchstick Man

philwint wrote:

On the road bikes I am forever having to re-set every couple of weeks to allow for pad wear.

Yeah. Turning an adjuster two COMPLETE revolutions every couple of weeks is KILLING me.

desweller

I love this thread. Cyclists are so technologically resistant. Disc brakes as a technology have 120 years of development behind them. They allow the use of specific sacrificial components that are easy to replace, made from materials that are optimised for the task. They have been proven to be reliable and superior in multiple modes of transport over and over again.

Yet cyclists obstinately stick to brakes that require them to rebuild or replace entire wheels every few years. Where the materials and design are neither optimised for braking or nor for wheel strength. Their arguments border on lunacy - how can disc brakes be described as troublesome nascent technology for goodness' sake? Even in bicycles they've been around since the 1970s!

I get the impression that some of you go round fixing everything with spit, sawdust and twine.

dodgy

cougie wrote:

I don't see them becoming popular on the road unless someone wins the Tour with them. Then they'll sell like hot cakes.

I can see them being hugely popular as a winter bike choice. I'm getting fed up of wearing out rims on the winter bike, it's a hassle, expensive and wasteful. Also, that grey sludge that drips all over the place, not nice having to repair a puncture at the side of the road with all that stuff getting everywhere.

Discs can't come soon enough for road bikes as far as I'm concerned, I'm not much bothered by outright braking performance, it's all about rim wear.

philwint

Matchstick Man wrote:

philwint wrote:

On the road bikes I am forever having to re-set every couple of weeks to allow for pad wear.

Yeah. Turning an adjuster two COMPLETE revolutions every couple of weeks is KILLING me.

:shock:

Are you being deliberately obtuse, or was that an attempt at sarcasm?

In the context of bike parts, where people get excited about a 20g weight saving, which was about the weight gain I made every time I blew my nose this morning......

My point is valid. Yes it's a minor point, obviously. But still one you don't get with hydraulic discs?

iPete

dodgy wrote:

cougie wrote:

I don't see them becoming popular on the road unless someone wins the Tour with them. Then they'll sell like hot cakes.

I can see them being hugely popular as a winter bike choice. I'm getting fed up of wearing out rims on the winter bike, it's a hassle, expensive and wasteful. Also, that grey sludge that drips all over the place, not nice having to repair a puncture at the side of the road with all that stuff getting everywhere.

Discs can't come soon enough for road bikes as far as I'm concerned, I'm not much bothered by outright braking performance, it's all about rim wear.

This! Looked at my front rim earlier, about 500 miles and the braking surface is a mess :?

itboffin

Not sure if i'll go hydro or mech in my next upgrades bit it will be one or other, commuting all year in all weather in a very hilly part of the country I find myself frequently wishing i had the same braking power on my road bikes as I do on my hydro disc mountain bike, esp on my CX bike, I think that was a massive mistake, my canti brake are frankly not my better in the wet and mud than using your foot on the back wheel.

Plus upgrades are upgrades 8)

John.T

Not sure if anyone has mentioned it yet (not read the whole thread) but the biggest down side for hydraulic discs on a road bike is heat build up causing the fluid to boil. This is more likely than on MTBs as the discs are smaller and the potential energy is much higher due to greater speeds. They don't help matters by fitting the front calliper behind the fork out of the wind.

solosuperia

I have cable operated disc brakes on my winter hack. Unbelievably good imho!
I cannot see any advantage going to an hydraulic system, I would be delighted to hear any pros.
Tell me.... If you have a failure on a hydraulic system is it a total failure? If one of my cables goes I still have one brake left with fairly awesome stopping power.

I am a convert to discs, would love them to come down in weight.......
Would need convincing to go hydraulic!

diy

If you split a hose you still have the other brake. I have never had a hose go that wasn't due to an impact. The primary advantage is the way the system keeps the pad close to the disc, giving the maximum possible brake leverage. At least 5x more than rim brakes and probably 3 x more than cable discs.

I'd like to see the evidence of brakes over heating. While its true that MTBs run larger discs, the wheels are smaller, the bikes heavier and demand is higher due to the steepness of descents and tightness of trails.

I imagine that something like a mountain road section might place high demand on the brakes, if you are say descending over 10-15 min period and using the brakes hard. The same section would wear a fair amount off normal brakes reducing their performance equally. I regularly change my pads for different requirements, choosing between organic, kevlar, sinter etc. to get different performance.

There are a lot of options which haven't been explored yet for road bike design.

fast as fupp

discs are fantastic for commuting, mtb's and possibly cx but i cant see them catching on with with road racers due to the problems associated with frequent wheel changes and brake drag.

ugo.santalucia

iPete wrote:

dodgy wrote:

cougie wrote:

I don't see them becoming popular on the road unless someone wins the Tour with them. Then they'll sell like hot cakes.

I can see them being hugely popular as a winter bike choice. I'm getting fed up of wearing out rims on the winter bike, it's a hassle, expensive and wasteful. Also, that grey sludge that drips all over the place, not nice having to repair a puncture at the side of the road with all that stuff getting everywhere.

Discs can't come soon enough for road bikes as far as I'm concerned, I'm not much bothered by outright braking performance, it's all about rim wear.

This! Looked at my front rim earlier, about 500 miles and the braking surface is a mess :?

You wanted it black...

For commuting, disc brakes are the way to go... For recreational/performance riding I am not so sure

philwint

fast as fupp wrote:

discs are fantastic for commuting, mtb's and possibly cx but i cant see them catching on with with road racers due to the problems associated with frequent wheel changes and brake drag.

I know I'm coming across as a real advocate for discs... but I'm not really. I've Di2 shifters so won't be switching to hydraulics for the foreseeable future.

But for the sake of a balanced discussion, could you expand on the above please?

As I've said I have hydraulics on the MTB, and have done so for 11 years and don't recognise either of those things. The pads self set so I can't remember them ever dragging. With wheel changes they are much more convenient than cables as they just drop out Cables on an MTB are more of a faff than my road brakes as you have to unhook the little pipe thing. But even on the road bike there is that switch to release to open up the caliper. Again, it's not that this is a massive time sink Just that you do have to do it, and remember to do it up again.

I have carved into my brain the occasion where i was out on the (pre-disk brake) MTB, front wheel punctured at the top of a hill, fixed it but forgot to re-connect the brake, then set off on the fast and rutted decent - that was quite exciting!!

fast as fupp

ok

my discs are set up ok on my mtb with one set of wheels (knobblies) i change wheels for slicks and lo and behold they drag like fupp.

imagine this scenario with multiple wheel changes in a road race?

iPete

ugo.santalucia wrote:

iPete wrote:

dodgy wrote:

cougie wrote:

I don't see them becoming popular on the road unless someone wins the Tour with them. Then they'll sell like hot cakes.

I can see them being hugely popular as a winter bike choice. I'm getting fed up of wearing out rims on the winter bike, it's a hassle, expensive and wasteful. Also, that grey sludge that drips all over the place, not nice having to repair a puncture at the side of the road with all that stuff getting everywhere.

Discs can't come soon enough for road bikes as far as I'm concerned, I'm not much bothered by outright braking performance, it's all about rim wear.

This! Looked at my front rim earlier, about 500 miles and the braking surface is a mess :?

You wanted it black...

For commuting, disc brakes are the way to go... For recreational/performance riding I am not so sure

Ha, true but went beyond the paint ages ago! still on a plus side if I wear out the brake surface soon, can get a trusty builder to replace the rim

ugo.santalucia

iPete wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

iPete wrote:

dodgy wrote:

cougie wrote:

I don't see them becoming popular on the road unless someone wins the Tour with them. Then they'll sell like hot cakes.

I can see them being hugely popular as a winter bike choice. I'm getting fed up of wearing out rims on the winter bike, it's a hassle, expensive and wasteful. Also, that grey sludge that drips all over the place, not nice having to repair a puncture at the side of the road with all that stuff getting everywhere.

Discs can't come soon enough for road bikes as far as I'm concerned, I'm not much bothered by outright braking performance, it's all about rim wear.

This! Looked at my front rim earlier, about 500 miles and the braking surface is a mess :?

You wanted it black...

For commuting, disc brakes are the way to go... For recreational/performance riding I am not so sure

Ha, true but went beyond the paint ages ago! still on a plus side if I wear out the brake surface soon, can get a trusty builder to replace the rim

Stop using pads made of volcanic rock! There is a tiny wear indicator kind of 10 cm away from the valve hole on both sides... when that's gone, it's time to fit a rim made of hard wearing cast iron... full black of course...