Hydralic Road Brakes

greasedscotsman
greasedscotsman Posts: 6,962
edited March 2013 in Road general
So is this what we'll all be riding in a few years?

1361379193080-1ljxbyhew80fg-670-75.jpg

Looks alot better than Sram's effort.

sram_red_disc_1_670.jpg
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Comments

  • I think it makes sense to have hydraUlic disc brakes on CX bikes, but not really road bikes, and especially not on the rear wheel, that's a complete waste of time.

    At a push maybe if you're a big Alpine rider you could use a disc front wheel, but you're going to be adding a fair chunk of weight. You need to strengthen the fork, the wheel/spokes, hub, etc.
  • Jez mon
    Jez mon Posts: 3,809
    I think it's a possibility, even with the fair bit of extra weight, I'm sure there will still be bikes being built up that hit the 6.8 kg limit.

    As for whether it's necessary, well, no, but neither are electronic gears...
    You live and learn. At any rate, you live
  • cougie
    cougie Posts: 22,512
    I watched the cross world champs on C4 the other weekend and I didn't see anyone with disc brakes.
    If the pros aren't on them and they get bikes for free - why should we shift to them ?
  • nicklouse
    nicklouse Posts: 50,675
    I but you're going to be adding a fair chunk of weight. You need to strengthen the fork, the wheel/spokes, hub, etc.
    thats what they said about MTBs. a Disc set up bike can be lighter than the equivalent V braked bike.

    http://www.canyon.com/_en/technology/project68.html
    Jez mon wrote:
    I think it's a possibility, even with the fair bit of extra weight, I'm sure there will still be bikes being built up that hit the 6.8 kg limit.

    As for whether it's necessary, well, no, but neither are electronic gears...

    see above done in 2010ish
    "Do not follow where the path may lead, Go instead where there is no path, and Leave a Trail."
    Parktools :?:SheldonBrown
  • Sorry, I didn't mean this thread to be about disc brakes but hydralic disc brakes, that is the significance of the Giant and the Di2 levers shown. As I pointed out, much better than the Sram units. I don't know much about about discs, but as I understand it, cable overated disc aren't great, whereas hydralics are (not sure why though, read it on this forum, maybe someone can help why).

    But are discs, cable or hydralic operated better than normal calipers? Dunno, don't think there is much in it. But I do like the idea that wheels/rims won't wear out.
  • to me, SRAM unit looks better. I wish the Shimano patents won't stop SRAM from releasing hydraulic road products.
    2015 Trek Domane 4.5 Disc
    http://chup.info/c/tag/trek/
  • lotus49
    lotus49 Posts: 763
    But are discs, cable or hydralic operated better than normal calipers? Dunno, don't think there is much in it. But I do like the idea that wheels/rims won't wear out.
    Not really.

    The limiting factor with road bikes is tyre grip and geometry.

    With a car there is no such thing is too much braking force but on a normal road bike there is a (low) limit to how much force can be applied before you are over the handlebars. Normal cable operated caliper brakes can already apply this much force so there is little benefit in any alternative approach unless it is lighter.
  • diy
    diy Posts: 6,473
    I'm not convinced on some of the opinions here. Personally I think we will see hydraulic disc brakes on road bikes, but not as per the above. I think we'll see option with very small discs (as per nicklouse's link).

    My road bike's brakes are truly appalling compared to my mtb disc brakes. Discs work better because the disc stays true and this allows the brake surface to be positioned very close to the surface of the disk. Thus maximizing the leverage. It also allows better materials to be used. the benefits are huge - wheels can progress in design with no requirement for a braking surface. it doesn't really matter if they are cable of hydraulic, though hydraulics tend to be more adjustable and provide better feel. Plus cable brakes tend to be cheaper and need adjusting as the brake surface wears.

    We may even see linked brakes on road bikes which will further increase the opportunity for weight reduction.

    I think you'd be surprised just how much force you could put on the front before it locks, particularly if you use techniques such as those used by motorcyclists. For me the limiting factor is not tyre grip but fork design.
  • flasher
    flasher Posts: 1,734
    Can't say that I've ever needed anymore braking power, but in a few years I'll be gagging for them as all my pals will be riding them!

    Something else to get us to spend money on, unnecessarily!
  • Must admit, I don't fancy the shape of those SRAM hoods. Did the design them in Minecraft?
    Mangeur
  • Monty Dog
    Monty Dog Posts: 20,614
    Disc brakes provide predictable, all weather braking on carbon rimmed-wheels so the appeal to road racers is probably more than for CX. For CX tyre grip is the limiting factor, not brakes despite what the marketing guys try to tell us - I had a disc CX bike, but sold it and stuck with rim brakes mainly because of the weight.
    Make mine an Italian, with Campagnolo on the side..
  • meesterbond
    meesterbond Posts: 1,240
    Monty Dog wrote:
    Disc brakes provide predictable, all weather braking on carbon rimmed-wheels so the appeal to road racers is probably more than for CX. For CX tyre grip is the limiting factor, not brakes despite what the marketing guys try to tell us - I had a disc CX bike, but sold it and stuck with rim brakes mainly because of the weight.

    That's interesting as after racing CX on Sunday with, what felt like practically no discernable brakes at all (TRP Cantis) I would have thought CX was the ideal place to use discs!
  • Can people not see beyond braking force? If the disc size can be reduced, weight won't be any great penalty and you can then have brakes that will work better in the wet, your rims will be lighter and you won't have to buy new wheels because you have worn your rims out. Is that not a good thing?
  • Mikey41
    Mikey41 Posts: 690
    +1

    The benefit of disc brakes to me is not outright power, though they are better for that too, is is that they don't get covered in water/mud in poor weather. They work and keep on working.
    Giant Defy 2 (2012)
    Giant Defy Advanced 2 (2013)
    Giant Revel 1 Ltd (2013)
    Strava
  • Not sure about the SRAM version but like the Shimano look ok.

    Personally I think the move to hydraulic discs could be a good thing. I was very doubtful using them on an mtb as I couldn't see the advantage over a good set of v-brakes. I tried mechanical discs and although easy to set up I didn't like the constant adjustment, moving on to Hydro brakes (shimano deore so nothing special) and its just so much better. As has been previously posted they are predictable in wet or dry and much more controlled.

    As for the comment about weight, has anyone actually calculated what the difference would be for a set of rims, calipers, levers, cables and outers compared to say a 140mm rotor hydraulic setup with carbon rims (maybe even 120 for a road bike)? My guess is the difference would be minimal.
  • nicklouse
    nicklouse Posts: 50,675
    As for the comment about weight, has anyone actually calculated what the difference would be for a set of rims, calipers, levers, cables and outers compared to say a 140mm rotor hydraulic setup with carbon rims (maybe even 120 for a road bike)? My guess is the difference would be minimal.
    as i said that was the argument when they first came out on MTBs.

    there is another benefit that no one has mentioned yet.

    reduced hand fatigue. Less force is needed to brake. a big benefit that was not first thought about by the XC racers.

    the only down side is that rear wheel changes take a little longer. and if they are going to allow then in races where there is support provided they will have to standardise all sizes. so no bigger discs for the bigger rider or they might not have a suitable wheel to fit.
    "Do not follow where the path may lead, Go instead where there is no path, and Leave a Trail."
    Parktools :?:SheldonBrown

  • As for the comment about weight, has anyone actually calculated what the difference would be for a set of rims, calipers, levers, cables and outers compared to say a 140mm rotor hydraulic setup with carbon rims (maybe even 120 for a road bike)? My guess is the difference would be minimal.

    Don't forget that the disc hub is by nature bigger and heavier and that you may have to make the spokes stronger or more numerous to resist the forces involved.

    The fork would also need the mount, and beefed up to take the forces.

    Mtb's already had strong hubs and forks before disc brakes, road bikes don't.

    Having said that, the best thing about the disc brakes on my mtb is the modulation. You can dial in the exact braking force that you want, something that is tricky to do with a rim brake.
  • philwint
    philwint Posts: 763
    Lot's of people mentioning improved force. It's not about that. I bet you can all slam the brakes on and make your road bike skid. The force limiter is already the rubber:road interface.

    On the MTB it's pretty much the same, though those big grippy tyres are less keen to skid.

    Where disks are much much better off road are:

    - More controllable power - the subtlety you can achieve is better than rim brakes
    - Works the same in the dry or wet
    - No faffing around when removing the wheel
    - Can still ride when you trash your wheel ( I completely taccoed mine at mountain mayhem one year during a night lap, and by jumping up and down on the hub got it straight enough to finish my lap)
    - Disk specific rims
    - One finger braking

    The last is possibly something that gives more benefit off road. As when the bike is leaping around under you while you hurtle down a rocky rutted trail the more fingers I can wrap round my bars the better i feell!!! Even my local roads are a lot smoother than that lol
  • andyp
    andyp Posts: 10,112
    cougie wrote:
    I watched the cross world champs on C4 the other weekend and I didn't see anyone with disc brakes.
    If the pros aren't on them and they get bikes for free - why should we shift to them ?

    You weren't paying enough attention, a number of riders were using discs.

    img_0758.jpg

    img_0848.jpg

    cxmag_17_as7f5288.jpg
  • Coming down Curbar Edge on a warm day last summer got me thinking about the how warm those rims were getting. I wouldn't fancy loosing a front tyre going down there :shock:
  • Not me, simply not paying vast amounts for something I haven't needed in over 30 years of cycling. Fine for those who are prepared to rape the bank account and its par for the course for the evolution of road cycling.
    the deeper the section the deeper the pleasure.
  • Coming down Curbar Edge on a warm day last summer got me thinking about the how warm those rims were getting. I wouldn't fancy loosing a front tyre going down there :shock:

    Going up Curbar Edge on a warm day last summer got me thinking I should be going down instead! :mrgreen:
    tick - tick - tick
  • I for one suspect they will become the standard on road bikes eventually.

    I don't think that - as the technology currently is - they compare favourably with caliper rim brakes in balance of functionality, ease of maintenance and weight, but they aren't without their benefits either... I think when it does happen it will be because one of the manufacturers makes them appear on a major team's bikes at a major race, though.
  • desweller
    desweller Posts: 5,175
    pride4ever wrote:
    Not me, simply not paying vast amounts for something I haven't needed in over 30 years of cycling. Fine for those who are prepared to rape the bank account and its par for the course for the evolution of road cycling.

    Presumably you were saying the same thing when everyone was still bowling around on steel rims?
    - - - - - - - - - -
    On Strava.{/url}
  • Pros: better braking, cleaner rims
    Cons: swapping wheels between seasons & bikes - both need to same and the swap will be a little more awkward. Hydraulic reservoirs leak and need servicing.

    This will happen, but love the mechanical simplicity of my mechanical bike (bar the Garmin - but that is not essential to movement)
    All the gear, but no idea...
  • ShutUpLegs
    ShutUpLegs Posts: 3,522
    A good rider doesn't need better brakes.
  • letap73
    letap73 Posts: 1,608
    This C59 came out with quite a fanfare:

    th_8ed9c1ce78866d059886ff20cf9118da_c59discmain325.jpg
  • ShutUpLegs wrote:
    A good rider doesn't need better brakes.

    Really?
  • springtide9
    springtide9 Posts: 1,731
    I can't wait!

    Road brakes are rubbish:
    - they don't stop properly either in the dry or wet (can't get close to using the available 'grip' to stop quickly)
    - wear the rims on my expensive wheels
    - cover the whole bike on black soot.

    Personally I'd happy to put up with a little bit of extra weight for a maintenance free brake solution. Many other people will state that the current road brakes are 'good enough' for a road bike, which is obviously their preference.

    As at least one person has previously previously stated, the amount of weight will be fairly minimal. Disc brakes have got considerably lighter over the last few years so we are not exactly talking huge quantities.

    Anyway, the road disc brake ball is now rolling.. and even the traditional Italian manufacturers are running with the ball.. .. so it's only a matter of time.
    Simon
  • I can't wait!

    Road brakes are rubbish:
    - they don't stop properly either in the dry or wet (can't get close to using the available 'grip' to stop quickly)
    - wear the rims on my expensive wheels
    - cover the whole bike on black soot.

    Personally I'd happy to put up with a little bit of extra weight for a maintenance free brake solution. Many other people will state that the current road brakes are 'good enough' for a road bike, which is obviously their preference.

    As at least one person has previously previously stated, the amount of weight will be fairly minimal. Disc brakes have got considerably lighter over the last few years so we are not exactly talking huge quantities.

    Anyway, the road disc brake ball is now rolling.. and even the traditional Italian manufacturers are running with the ball.. .. so it's only a matter of time.

    I'm intrigued to see what they can come up with. I reckon the weight penalty would be around 2 to 300g, so not enormous. (+75g hub, +80g disc, +50g lever/reservoir, +50g wheel/spokes)

    It would be especially useful for those of us who use carbon rims which don't brake very well, especially in the wet.

    After last year's Etape, where my descents were super slow due to poor wet braking, I could be a potential customer, but I really don't need a disc on the rear wheel - just complicates things for no reason.

    As with so many things like this, you'd be better off waiting for the 2nd or 3rd iteration so that they can iron out the bugs.