Hill climbs - getting dropped

philbar72

I'm a average rider been trundling round surrey fro the last 6 months or so, and am getting increasingly hacked off with myself getting dropped on simple climbs like box hill. i don't have an HRM yet (getting that fixed this week when i get a garmin 510) so i can only work by feel .... as in how i'm feeling. this weekend was a case in point. i can do box hill regularly at 8 mins 30 over the 2.2k course, not fast, I know, but the group i was with gradually pulled away and finished a minute clear of me with me wondering what i was doing wrong. i wasn't in the red at all (and indeed in the last 3rd of the climb bridged a bit back and winched past a few people... (not the group i was with though)...

Maybe medium distance climbs don't suit me.... because i can regularly punch my way up shorter hills in the big ring ( by sprinting, effectively), and knowing i have good explosive power, maybe its a gearing/ aerobic fitness issue.

any thoughts? should i pace myself more effectively? stay in a higher gear (i climb box hill seated with a cadence of around 75-85 without trouble (in the small ring)), should i drop the cadence and focus on using more power to get up/ get out of the saddle occasionally?

any tips?

Grill

Stay seated and shift up a gear. If you can hold the same cadence in a taller gear you'll go faster. If you weren't close to red then you've got more to give.

imposter2.0

philbar72 wrote:

i wasn't in the red at all

if you weren't in the red - why didn't you just pick the pace up ?

Rigged

As above, if you had more to give then grit your teeth and go.

philbar72

sorry that statement isn't absolutely true. By red, i mean blown up completley unable to cycle. i was fairly close to my limit, but was wondering if the cadence was too high? i.e. running too small a gear... i may well be able to stomp through on a bigger gear, just wondering what speeds most spin up on hills (i.e 65 -75 rpm?) just so i can gauge whats right?.

imposter2.0

philbar72 wrote:

sorry that statement isn't absolutely true. By red, i mean blown up completley unable to cycle. i was fairly close to my limit, but was wondering if the cadence was too high? i.e. running too small a gear... i may well be able to stomp through on a bigger gear, just wondering what speeds most spin up on hills (i.e 65 -75 rpm?) just so i can gauge whats right?.

'in the red' more typically means riding at a pace/effort level which is unsustainable - ie beyond threshold. Sounds as though you just don't have as much fitness as the people you were riding with.

There is no 'correct' speed for any hill.

Grill

philbar72 wrote:

sorry that statement isn't absolutely true. By red, i mean blown up completley unable to cycle. i was fairly close to my limit, but was wondering if the cadence was too high? i.e. running too small a gear... i may well be able to stomp through on a bigger gear, just wondering what speeds most spin up on hills (i.e 65 -75 rpm?) just so i can gauge whats right?.

People climb differently, but by keeping a higher cadence you'll stay aerobic. I use less energy climbing 10 miles of 8% than 1 of 15% just because I can spin.

philbar72

looks like i'll take it up a gear or 2 and see how i get on.

Gabbo

philbar72 wrote:

looks like i'll take it up a gear or 2 and see how i get on.

Once upon a time I had to turn around because I wasn't feeling strong enough to complete that segment. Nowadays I'm looking to break it in under 7 minutes. Got another 18 seconds to shave, mind.

Just up your mileage, and maybe include some intervals. If you want to go up it fast, it'll be intense. You'll need to get use to cycling at a higher intensity.

My advice will be no where as good as some others, but it's pretty simple. If you are not improving, consider whether you are doing enough, too much, or not enough training. Consider adding in a new stress to your training. There is so much room for improvement

Gabbo

Mind you Philip, your 22:36 for an entire lap of Richmond park isn't too shabby!

philbar72

I agree gabbo, I know what I’m good at, the flatlands where I’m goodish at keeping a steady quick pace, and sprinting, i just don't judge hills well... I interval train sort of by smashing up short hills in big gears, but not longer hills, because my stamina would not hold out (so I resort to spinning in a lower gear and winching my way up) and on average over the last couple of months I’ve been doing an average of 65 miles a weekend.

I think its time to do more cardio (i.e. spinning) and also look at training better (that’s possibly where the Garmin will help as I can get accurate cadence and HR patterns as well as calculated power rather than seeing strava guesstimate me churning out 1500w 1 minute then 70w the next). I don’t do many miles but this last weekend I did about 115 miles with 2 trips up box hill. So the miles are going on, but I perhaps need a little more science behind it. I’m going to try for 130 miles this weekend, just see how I get on….

Gabbo

Best way to improve is to have a structured training plan. With every training session, ask yourself the purpose of that exact session. Why am I doing this session for? What am I looking to achieve from it? Also question the quantity and quality of the food and liquid you consume on a daily basis. Again, what is the purpose of eating this? What good/bad will it do?

If you want to understand it within more depth, buy an exercise physiology book. Most people don't need this though. A cycling training book should suffice

jibberjim

philbar72 wrote:

Maybe medium distance climbs don't suit me.... because i can regularly punch my way up shorter hills in the big ring ( by sprinting, effectively), and knowing i have good explosive power, maybe its a gearing/ aerobic fitness issue.

Yes, you're simply not all that fit, sorry to say that, but that's the reality. Cadence is individual, but 65-75 is pretty low, which is generally an indiciator of poor aerobic fitness - I climb box hill at over 90rpm.

Train your aerobic fitness, the rest isn't particularly relevant.

alihisgreat

If you're getting dropped on hills then there are three things to look at:

1)Power-to-weight ratio
2)Technique
3)Rule No.5

1) pretty self explanatory some people are naturally better at climbing because they're skinny... it is something that can be worked on though both the power and weight bits.

2) surprisingly big impact - a lot of it is knowing how your body copes with different gradients, gearing, standing/sitting etc.

3) HTFU

philbar72

Jim, i can often spin at 90rpm, but the truth is i just don't think i'm in the right gear, it could be down to what AL said. I'm fairly fit ( play 5 a side 3 times a week) as well as cycling, and as stated before have ramped up my road riding. so thats on track... just need to top and tail it.

i'm 81-82kg, so there is a bit to lose ( 5 foot 9"). i'm looking to get down to 75kg, lost 2kg in Jan, so hopefully more is to come this month. its difficult to see where from though except cutting out the beer ( i'm out every friday but don't go mad), my diet is sensible ish, no pizza'/ curry/shit food... or bonbonbonbons...

as for rule 5 or HTFU. hmmn.... lets see in a few weeks.

thanks for the advice folks.

smidsy

What gear are the others going up in compared to you?

If they are using the same, what cadence compared to you?

philbar72

sorry genuinely don't know... i didn't get the chance to ask....

jibberjim

philbar72 wrote:

Jim, i can often spin at 90rpm, but the truth is i just don't think i'm in the right gear, it could be down to what AL said. I'm fairly fit ( play 5 a side 3 times a week) as well as cycling, and as stated before have ramped up my road riding. so thats on track... just need to top and tail it.

8:30 up Box Hill isn't "fairly fit" for a road cyclist though unless you're significantly overweight which you're not, it's not even 3.5w/kg, it's a bit better than an untrained individual, but it's not what you'd expect a regular training cyclist to do.

That's not a bad thing, since it means you almost certainly have big gains to come (I was 81kg doing 7:55 in 2008, the first time I appear to have timed myself up it although I don't think it was an absolute max effort as I was just riding side by side with my wife) But to get those gains, you'll get them by becoming fitter, tweaking the gearing or the technique or pacing will only have a tiny impact on your time. More training and having trained for a longer time will.

Slack

Lose some weight, and you will climb faster.

Not saying you are overweight, but from personal experience when i trim up , i go up
hills faster for the same effort .my average speeds are currently slower, but i am not concerned, as i know my speeds will increase as i lose my winter layer of flab

philbar72

I agree Jim. cycling fitness is different to my only other discipline, and especially when it comes to hills. its all about pacing where i am used to bursts of speed and running shuttles.

bear in mind though i've only done this for a couple of months (in terms of being focused).

thanks again!

imposter2.0

philbar72 wrote:

Jim, i can often spin at 90rpm, but the truth is i just don't think i'm in the right gear, it could be down to what AL said. I'm fairly fit ( play 5 a side 3 times a week) as well as cycling, and as stated before have ramped up my road riding. so thats on track... just need to top and tail it.

playing football doesn't count for much on a bike, unfortunately. It is cycling fitness you need.

philbar72 wrote:

i'm 81-82kg, so there is a bit to lose ( 5 foot 9"). i'm looking to get down to 75kg, lost 2kg in Jan, so hopefully more is to come this month. its difficult to see where from though except cutting out the beer ( i'm out every friday but don't go mad), my diet is sensible ish, no pizza'/ curry/shoot food... or bonbonbonbons...

I'm the same height as you and 68kg. There's still a bit of scope for weight loss there...

philbar72

I know about the football and cycling side of things.... 2 polar opposites. 75 kg is my target. lets see what happens after that.

Gabbo

philbar72 wrote:

I know about the football and cycling side of things.... 2 polar opposites. 75 kg is my target. lets see what happens after that.

Phil,

Just a suggestion but why not ride box hill on your own? Do repeats of about 3-4 times that 2.2km segment. It's a very good way to increase your fitness and adapt to longer hill climbing.

philbar72

Gabbo,

Guess whats happening friday pm and saturday morning (weather permitting). twice friday and 3 times saturday. Lets see how i get on.

amaferanga

I'd suggest you do it 4 or 5 or 6 times each day. A couple of repeats of an 8min climb isn't really much training.

Gabbo

amaferanga wrote:

I'd suggest you do it 4 or 5 or 6 times each day. A couple of repeats of an 8min climb isn't really much training.

It's all relative to your current ability. If he is only managing 8 minutes and 30 seconds for that climb, then repeating it 4-6 times on a daily basis may be a little too much, too soon. One step at a time.

I think the climb to the cafe is about 120 - 160m so lets say 140m. Say he repeats this 4 times, he'd have already climbed 560m from that segment alone. Sometimes I can go for a 50 mile cycle and not achieve that amount of elevation achieved by the end.

The most I've climbed is 1200m over 90km and that was incredibly tough. I'll try and attach the route but unsure of how to convert .gpx file

philbar72

amaferanga wrote:

I'd suggest you do it 4 or 5 or 6 times each day. A couple of repeats of an 8min climb isn't really much training.

I could do it like that. but i think i need to see how i go first. I'll see how the legs feel on friday....

imposter2.0

philbar72 wrote:

amaferanga wrote:

I'd suggest you do it 4 or 5 or 6 times each day. A couple of repeats of an 8min climb isn't really much training.

I could do it like that. but i think i need to see how i go first. I'll see how the legs feel on friday....

Like Amaferanga says - if you want to see some improvement, you need to be riding it at threshold effort - and 8 (or even 16) minutes at threshold is not going to be enough to bring you on in terms of performance. If you can be spending a total of around 30/40 mins at threshold, it would be better - which equates to around 5 ascents, coincidentally...

philbar72

Thanks Imposter. i'll maybe look at 24/32 minutes to start off with... :P

stifflersmom

Get the Sufferfest Angels workout, includes three 8 minute climbs with 4 minutes recovery in between. You'll be working at threshold (and above in parts).

Tom Dean

Right, why actually ride up a hill when you can do this? ^