Tired legs

daxplusplus

My legs are so tired this morning that I'm seriously thinking about not walking a few hundred metres out of the office to get lunch :?

They're not painful in any way, just drained of energy.

I can understand what I've done to get into this state but I'm sat here and curious if anyone knows the physiology of what's going on to produce such a feeling.

Also are there any tactics to get around it (other than less cycling)? Eat/drink particular food, cycle in a particular HR zone? Or is it a case of just riding through it? (I'm assuming it's not necessarily a case of over doing it.)

Cheers.

gtvlusso

It was windy this morning.

Are you a grinder or a spinner? Suggest a spinnier gear, depending on your mileage.

Drfabulous0

I suggest Rule 5, and getting someone else to go for lunch.

Subaqua

I suggest becoming the Welsh Secretary (maybe not a good move as you're in the West Country) as he has a Chauffuer and a Jag to go 100 metres to No 10. You could get driven to the shops to get lunch on the way back.

alidaf

It is your glycogen stores being depleted. You need to convert some simple carbs into glycogen in your muscles.

Have a proper recovery meal after each long ride - nesquik and some peanut butter on toast. Or you could go high-tech and get some Zip-Vit recovery powder. I found the night-time stuff to work well but doesn't taste particularly nice.

meanredspider

alidaf wrote:

It is your glycogen stores being depleted.

+1 My understanding, though, is that it's difficult to restore glycogen stores quickly. A running book I read, suggested that you should alternate easy & hard days cycling else you end up in a permanent state of depletion. The added benefit of the easy days is that you enhance the muscles fat-burning abilities so it's a virtuous circle. To reinforce this, after a week OFF the bike, I'm often at my fastest.

In the short term, I've found a muffin an hour before my ride home, patches up my legs

tgotb

meanredspider wrote:

In the short term, I've found a muffin an hour before my ride home, patches up my legs

Do you rub it in everywhere on your legs, or just the bits that are aching?

daxplusplus

alidaf wrote:

It is your glycogen stores being depleted.

Is it though? I'm not so sure.

I didn't have too big a work out yesterday and I ate and hydrated well (straight after both commutes and generally during the day). I've also been trying hard to stay out of anaerobic HR zones (not always possible though, due to large, steep hills).

Again this morning, trying hard to stay out of anaerobic HR zones (very successfully as the commute in is a long, slow climb rather than anything steep).

I suppose it could be glycogen depletion but then I'm not exactly clear on what other physiological reasons exist that make us feel tired and, in particular, my legs (rather than feeling generally tired due to lack of sleep say).

Oh and @subaqua - that's cheating.

@Drfabulous0 - following Rule#5 is what got me here in the first place.

@gtvlusso - it was very windy but I was able to keep my HR right down while spinning well. It was a slog and a a half and took a lot longer than usual.

daxplusplus

meanredspider wrote:

alidaf wrote:

It is your glycogen stores being depleted.

+1 My understanding, though, is that it's difficult to restore glycogen stores quickly. A running book I read, suggested that you should alternate easy & hard days cycling else you end up in a permanent state of depletion. The added benefit of the easy days is that you enhance the muscles fat-burning abilities so it's a virtuous circle. To reinforce this, after a week OFF the bike, I'm often at my fastest.

In the short term, I've found a muffin an hour before my ride home, patches up my legs

Oh OK.

I am pretty good at getting food/milkshakes into me in the hour after a ride - it's supposed to really help restore glycogen. But then my commutes home do contain some very hard climbs (can't be helped) - so maybe it is a case of downward spiral. My commute on Monday was a killer (very anaerobic and very glycogen depleting)

Could be "the day after the day after" kind of effect?

I have some hot cross buns on the go for the ride home (and fingers crossed the wind direction will not have changed - I'm owed a tail wind after this mornings head wind).

Crouching Peeky

I too suffer from this. I've just purchased a tube of Deep Heat and hope that increasing the blood flow to my tired muscles will help their recovery.

hegyestomi

A bit of massage of your leg can do wonders: I try to do it every time I feel that a ride exhausted me.
I had a whole (yes, on my own) chocolate loaf from waitrose a few months back, not sure how much calories where in that thing but I was flying like a rocket on my way home and felt really strong. Maybe you should try it

Wrath Rob

The causes are either glycogen stores, as mentioned, or micro damage to your muscles caused through exercise. Its the latter which triggers the body to repair itself and causes you to get fitter/stronger. Feeling tired and listless is a sign of the former which suggests you're not eating right, sore legs is a sign of the latter and would suggest a general lack of fitness which eating isn't going to fix.

As you've not mentioned sore legs I'll guess that its depleted energy stores. I've no idea how long your commute is but assuming its sub 45 mins then as long as you have something decent after your ride you should recover enough before you have to go home some 8 hours later. I used to get the same problem, particularly towards the end of the week until I started eating a proper breakfast after the ride. I can now quite happily do a full week including 3 training sessions on top of the commute without getting Friday legs, plus rides at the weekend. Admittedly my breakfast in that time has changed from a simple bowl of porridge when I was just commuting, to toast, beans, eggs and porridge now that I'm training harder.

Eating just before you leave, either in the morning or evening, will just trigger your insulin response and divert energy away from your legs and to your digestive track. If you want to top up your stores before you leave, eat a couple of hours before getting on the bike. The only time you can should eat before a ride is immediately before, e.g. on the start line, if you have something small (e.g. an energy gel) to load your blood with glucose and get your body to use that before attacking your glycogen stores, which will give you a little extra endurance towards the end of a race.

meanredspider

TGOTB wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

In the short term, I've found a muffin an hour before my ride home, patches up my legs

Do you rub it in everywhere on your legs, or just the bits that are aching?

Sorry - that should have been a muffin' (and where I rub it is a trade secret )

Sewinman

This thread just justified a Pret Bar. Ta.

gtvlusso

Sewinman wrote:

This thread just justified a Pret Bar. Ta.

And has just proved you wealthier than the rest of us.....!

daxplusplus

Wrath Rob wrote:

I used to get the same problem, particularly towards the end of the week until I started eating a proper breakfast after the ride.

Cheers for the comments Rob .. I have heard of people eating breakfast after their ride rather than before. I will try this as an experiment. I'm not looking forward to it though - I do feel nervous about no food since the previous evening and then doing a longish ride esp. if there's a head wind.

Wrath Rob

DaxPlusPlus wrote:

Wrath Rob wrote:

I used to get the same problem, particularly towards the end of the week until I started eating a proper breakfast after the ride.

Cheers for the comments Rob .. I have heard of people eating breakfast after their ride rather than before. I will try this as an experiment. I'm not looking forward to it though - I do feel nervous about no food since the previous evening and then doing a longish ride esp. if there's a head wind.

How long is your ride? If you're less than an hour, and you're not blasting it for the entire time, then you should be fine. If you're more than an hour then it might be worth taking something small with you, e.g. slice of Soreen, and eating it 1/2 way through to ensure you're OK to get to the end. Give it a go and see how you get on, just carry some food with you just in case you bonk.

Recently I've been doing an intense Saturday workout, then a long Sunday ride with no breakfast. As long as I keep the intensity down and after an hour start nibbling on something then I'm fine.

rick_chasey

When i had problems like this, I used to find out what the pros would do.

Injecting yourself with loads of drugs probably isn't an answer you were hoping for.

wgwarburton

DaxPlusPlus wrote:

Wrath Rob wrote:

I used to get the same problem, particularly towards the end of the week until I started eating a proper breakfast after the ride.

Cheers for the comments Rob .. I have heard of people eating breakfast after their ride rather than before. I will try this as an experiment. I'm not looking forward to it though - I do feel nervous about no food since the previous evening and then doing a longish ride esp. if there's a head wind.

Don't rule out a virus. There's a lot of that sort of stuff around at the moment (February being "fever month").

Cheers,
W.

daxplusplus

Ride is approx 1hr 30 minutes.

In an ideal world I would wake up a couple of hours before the ride and eat then I guess. But that's not happening. Instead I'm awake at 6:25 and out on the road at 7am. Into work for 8:15-8:30am.

I'm really interested in losing a few pounds too and I guess not eating before the ride could help this.

In the summer I extend the ride as long as I can - maybe 2 hours (get up at 6) but I play that by ear as it gets lighter.

daxplusplus

@Wrath Rob Because it's difficult to eat well before the morning commute do you think it's better to do low intensity rides in the morning and high intensity rides on the way home?

I can vary either commute to suit whatever I need to do but in fact it's a lot easier for me to do low intensity rides in the morning because of the geography of the Cotswolds that I ride in.

daxplusplus

Drugs => caffeine only (I'm not an Aussie)
Virus => Not too worried that it might be a bug (famous last words)

alidaf

I don't eat before my ride in the morning but I have a decent breakfast when I get to the office. It is a shorter than your ride though at around an hour, but I don't take it particularly easy. Regardless of what I have for lunch, the ride home is tougher. More uphill for a start. Taking it easy once in a while is good for recovery and it seems is beneficial to losing weight if that is what you want to do.

Basically, I think high intensity workouts will boost your strength and stamina in the long term but cause muscle damage that needs repairing with a good post workout diet, while lots of low intensity workouts will help lose weight, but you still need to eat properly.

I still can't commute 5 days on the trot because I end up totally exhausted, but I actually find it difficult (mentally) to take it easy because I just want to get to where I'm going. I definitely find that my performance is better after some time off but consistent weight loss only happens if I commute 3 or 4 days a week, continuously over a period, rather than just 2.

It may be worth your while investing in a heart rate monitor if you are interested in analysing your performance or charting weight loss but I'd suggest just listening to your body. After all, you know when you've worked hard on a ride! I have a heart rate monitor but over analysing takes some of the joy out of cycling.

The Rookie

6.7 mile commute, which I treat as a hard workout, slightly easier on the way in so I'm not a total mess at work, then harder on the way home.

Breakfast in the morning before I leave (Cereals, juice and tea), then a light carb based snack on arrival, carb based snack and cup of tea before I leave and then tea and biscuits when I get home before dinner.

Blacktemplar

meanredspider wrote:

In the short term, I've found a muffin an hour before my ride home, patches up my legs

Surely muffin' before you go home will make you more tired?

gbsahne001

Blacktemplar wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

In the short term, I've found a muffin an hour before my ride home, patches up my legs

Surely muffin' before you go home will make you more tired?

2 slices of toast and a swig of water before I leave for an 18 mile hilly ride in, don't really seem to be suffering that much considering I'm climbing 4 times what I was. Homeward bound is a shockingly short 10 - 12 miles, as it's busy dark narrow B roads, which are quite unpleasant to ride on. I'll be glad when the clocks change and start racking up the miles in the evenings.

meanredspider

Blacktemplar wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

In the short term, I've found a muffin an hour before my ride home, patches up my legs

Surely muffin' before you go home will make you more tired?

Natural testosterone ;-)

Jehannum

meanredspider wrote:

Blacktemplar wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

In the short term, I've found a muffin an hour before my ride home, patches up my legs

Surely muffin' before you go home will make you more tired?

Natural testosterone ;-)

This probably something The Receptionist could help you with?

J.

Wrath Rob

DaxPlusPlus wrote:

@Wrath Rob Because it's difficult to eat well before the morning commute do you think it's better to do low intensity rides in the morning and high intensity rides on the way home?

I can vary either commute to suit whatever I need to do but in fact it's a lot easier for me to do low intensity rides in the morning because of the geography of the Cotswolds that I ride in.

Short answer is yes, but with 3 hours a day on the bike its no wonder you're tired by the end of the week!

The club had a nutritionist who worked with the Garmin Cervello test team when they were no. 1 in the world, to do a talk and someone with a similar duration commute asked a question about nutrition for it. The answer was that you should take on something small before leaving, e.g. a small bowl of porridge or an egg (yes, really) as this would ensure your body has something to use to start recovery immediately after the ride is over. Use this ride a chance to work on the fat-burning end of the intensity scale, so keep your heart rate in zone2, so below 70% of max. Then get a decent breakfast in you as a 90 min ride is going to consume ~800-900 calories. Make sure this breakfast includes protein, low GI foods and fibre as this will provide a sustained release to help you recover.

You can then use the ride home to focus on tempo, threshold, anaerobic of NP training provided that you've taken the chance to top up your glycogen stores a couple of hours before leaving. Depending on intensity this is going to use well over 1,000 calories so make sure you eat as soon as you get back. A recovery shake made with water (not milk, this slows down the body's absorption of protein) and some sugary foods will get straight to work. You can then have a proper meal after you've showered, put the kids to bed or whatever else you need to do before dinner.

In your case I'd also recommend building some rest into your week to give your body a chance to repair the micro-damage that training causes, especially if you ride on the weekend. This can either be an "active recovery" ride, but that will likely extend your commute to far time-wise, or be prepared to take public transport/drive at some point in the week. People often forget that it is when you're not exercising that your fitness improves, its when you rest as this is when your body makes the adaptations that your training has stimulated. Not giving it this chance to adapt will slow down the rate your fitness improves.

daxplusplus

Wrath Rob wrote:

Loads of useful advice re: ride types and fuelling

I believe I owe you a beer (or water based recovery drink of your choice) for that advice I will go away and ponder upon these things. Many thanks.

Wrath Rob wrote:

In your case I'd also recommend building some rest into your week to give your body a chance to repair the micro-damage that training causes, especially if you ride on the weekend. This can either be an "active recovery" ride, but that will likely extend your commute to far time-wise, or be prepared to take public transport/drive at some point in the week. People often forget that it is when you're not exercising that your fitness improves, its when you rest as this is when your body makes the adaptations that your training has stimulated. Not giving it this chance to adapt will slow down the rate your fitness improves.

Reckon I got the rest bit covered - normally I use a motorbike on Tuesdays and Thursdays.This week was different and I ended up commuting 4 out of the 5 days.

Wednesday morning commute proceeded to turn into a perfect storm .. 3 days commuting on the trot, Monday had been a bit of a monster climbing session both morning and evening (Bike Radar Feb Climbing Challenge and the ego wanting new Strava segments + a fresh set of legs after the weekend) and so Wednesday morning was supposed to be a recovery ride ..

.. instead turned into a monster, heinous headwind epic.

Hence tired legs.

daxplusplus

alidaf wrote:

I still can't commute 5 days on the trot because I end up totally exhausted, but I actually find it difficult (mentally) to take it easy because I just want to get to where I'm going. I definitely find that my performance is better after some time off but consistent weight loss only happens if I commute 3 or 4 days a week, continuously over a period, rather than just 2.

I've learnt to take it easy - it's taken me a while to figure it out but I've discovered that I simply can't ride everywhere like a bat our of hell. The geography of where I ride kind of rubs my nose in that - there's just too many step, sharp hills. But as soon as I realised what was going on it's become a lot easier to vary my rides - slow if I need to recover, fast if I'm firing on all cylinders.

You may find your commuting goes the same way? Also it does take a while to build up to doing higher and higher mileages .. but one trick to speed up that adaptation is to take it easy at least some of the time - keeping that in mind might help you slow down a bit?

aliday wrote:

It may be worth your while investing in a heart rate monitor if you are interested in analysing your performance or charting weight loss but I'd suggest just listening to your body. After all, you know when you've worked hard on a ride! I have a heart rate monitor but over analysing takes some of the joy out of cycling.

Yep got a Garmin 500 with cadence/HRM for Christmas. This week I've started to figure out what I want from the HRM and what it can do. It didn't help that the 500 can only handle 5 HR zones even though the Garmin connect site will let you set up 6. Or that the Garmin connect site's graphs don't take into account your resting heart rate when labelling the HR zone axis.

I reckon I've got a pretty good feel for how hard I can push my body - years of riding means you do get a knack for that. But the thing the HRM is currently helping me understand is just how easy it is to work too hard and to turn a true recovery ride into a mish mash of a ride with your body moving through many zones and ultimately realising that actually it isn't going to aid recovery at all.