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HIIT, HR Zones, and Other Training short cuts...

MuffintopMuffintop Posts: 296
I'm just getting into this type of training, but I've found that I'm taking ages going from zone 5 (100% of heart rate) to zone 2 during the intervals (60% of my heart rate - if I remember correctly). I find that usually around the top end of zone 3 I feel fine - have caught my breath, legs recover enough etc. I'm considering just taking it easy for the 30 secs (or however long it takes me to feel recovered) as opposed to waiting for my HR to come down.

How many folk actually wait until they get to zone 2 when doing intervals, or do you just take it easy over a set amount of time?

What are the other short cuts you guys take? Or that you do, or don't do that flies in the face of smarmy-techno/fitness-babble.

Mx
FCN: Brompton: 12, Tourer: 7, Racer: 4

http://www.60milestonod.blogspot.com

Posts

  • You. What?
  • jgsijgsi Posts: 5,038
    Look at Trainer Road . you can train just using HR if you want to.
    (You dont get any choices when the intervals stop and start by the way.. what hurts wont kill you)
  • Wrath RobWrath Rob Posts: 2,918
    What intervals are you doing and how long? E.g. 5 minutes at threshold, 2 mins recovery. What's the objective of the workout? Stimulate strength development, lactate clearance or build power/FTP? The interval intensity, duration and recovery time between intervals will be different between all 3 because you're trying to stimulate different adaptations in your body.
    FCN3: Titanium Qoroz.
  • MuffintopMuffintop Posts: 296
    Cheers for the replies guys!

    Wrath Rob - I was doing 1 minute in Zone 5 then recovery for however long it takes to get back down to Zone 2. The objective of the workout - erm... lactate clearance? I want to push myself on the road a bit more - get the speed up. I always hang back out of self preservation (at least on the road), I don't want to wear myself out to the point I'm not paying attention. I try to burn myself out on the trainer so I know how far I can push it on the road without loosing concentration.

    This morning, cos I was pushed for time, I just did 10x 30 secs Threashold, then 1 min recovery.

    I'll have a look at Trainer Road, and Froomes... I never thought I'd post a post like this either.

    Mx
    FCN: Brompton: 12, Tourer: 7, Racer: 4

    http://www.60milestonod.blogspot.com
  • danowatdanowat Posts: 2,877
    1 min in Z5 isn't long enough, likewise, 30s at threshold isn't long enough.
  • Team4LukeTeam4Luke Posts: 597
    I agree with danowat there. Real speed is about being able to hold a higher effort for long periods not being able to hit top end efforts or indeed improve past that (for sprinting for the win, yes, for bridging to the gap in an RR yes), work on your pacing more and do longer at less intensity and re-evaluate your zones.
    Team4Luke supports Cardiac Risk in the Young
  • marykamaryka Posts: 748
    What are you trying to accomplish?

    Different interval durations and recovery durations target different things.

    Threshold intervals tend to be longer (interval anywhere from 3 to 10 times the recovery duration). Vo2max is generally 1:1 in ratio. Anaerobic stuff will have a recovery 2 to 5 times the interval length, because you need that long to be able to go hard again.

    If you're skimping on recovery time, then you're generally turning one workout into another -- not necessarily a bad thing, but not necessarily useful either if it doesn't match your goals.

    E.g., anaerobic intervals with insufficient recovery turns into a Vo2max workout, Vo2max without enough recovery turns into threshold.

    So ask yourself what you're trying to accomplish and build your interval and recovery time around that. HR is pretty meaningless for that imo, you should be basing your recovery intensity on feel not HR.
  • Wrath RobWrath Rob Posts: 2,918
    Muffintop wrote:
    The objective of the workout - erm... lactate clearance? I want to push myself on the road a bit more - get the speed up. I always hang back out of self preservation (at least on the road), I don't want to wear myself out to the point I'm not paying attention. I try to burn myself out on the trainer so I know how far I can push it on the road without loosing concentration.
    If you want to improve your general speed, i.e. not flat out sprints, then you want to work on your general power output, commonly referred to as Functional Threshold Power. This is basically the maximum sustainable power you can put out for an hour. its also directly related to the amount of power you can produce for 20 minutes, 90 minutes, 3 hours etc. The more you can produce, the faster you can go.

    Knowing that you want to improve it, you can focus on the right workouts. Maryka's suggestion of Threshold intervals will really help and a classic example is a 2*20 threshold workout. Warm up, then do 20 mins at your threshold heart rate (zone 4), recover for 5-10 mins and then do another 20 mins at threshold. You can vary this, e.g. do 5 8min threshold intervals with 3 mins recovery, or 8 5min with 90s recovery. A couple of those sessions a week along with a longer ride at the weekend will have you noticing improvements in a few weeks.
    FCN3: Titanium Qoroz.
  • MuffintopMuffintop Posts: 296
    Cheers guys! That's sound and clear advice. I'll let youse know how I get on...

    Thanks

    Mx
    FCN: Brompton: 12, Tourer: 7, Racer: 4

    http://www.60milestonod.blogspot.com
  • SBezzaSBezza Posts: 2,173
    Forget using HR on anything under 20 mins really, it just doesn't react quick enough on short intervals to give you any meaningful data to work with.
  • Hi,

    Did my first lactate threashold workout yesterday holding my HR in the upper level of zone four. 2x 8mins with 2 min break then 4x6 mins with two min break. My garmin ran out of battery half way through the second 8 min session so was going off feel but I think I may have over did it as I'm feeling it today and I don't usually, heavy legs and arms, but I didn't do my usual protien shake after so I recon that'll be a factor.

    Will keep youse posted on how this translates on the road.

    Mx
    FCN: Brompton: 12, Tourer: 7, Racer: 4

    http://www.60milestonod.blogspot.com
  • ShutUpLegsShutUpLegs Posts: 3,522
    Muffintop wrote:
    Will keep youse posted on how this translates on the road.

    Mx

    Excellent
  • MuffintopMuffintop Posts: 296
    Yo! It's been a couple of weeks but I kind of lost the will for a while there. Anyway, did my first proper 20*2 at a low zone 5. I have a garmin and if I'm right the zones seem to move up one cos they count zone 1 as just sitting there. My previous sessions were high zone fours. Any way, I'm blogging the results if anyone wants a swatch. It's been snowing where we are for 3 weeks now so no roading it really. Planning to go out this weekend but that depends on the wind (blowing a hoolie here).

    Mx
    FCN: Brompton: 12, Tourer: 7, Racer: 4

    http://www.60milestonod.blogspot.com
  • andyebandyeb Posts: 407
    There's a valuable trick I learned from this book: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Heart-Rate-Trai ... 862&sr=1-1 called "Heart Rate Fartlek"; it essentially involves rollercoasting your heart rate up and down between two specific intensities. For building base fitness, that could be between 60 and 75% maximum heart rate. For building stamina go between 65 and 85% maximum heart rate. Here's an example of one such workout on Strava: http://app.strava.com/activities/44619233

    It's essentially a form of interval training, but is particularly good at practicing recovery from hard intervals, as you can get more intervals (and therefore more recovery sessions) into an hour of riding. Plus it also self-adapts as you improve.
  • LazybikeLazybike Posts: 22
    Don't forget to set your zones in connect, then send them to the unit, Garmin calculates the zones based on your age they can be inaccurate...If you know your LT work them out from that.
  • MuffintopMuffintop Posts: 296
    I do mine off of my maximum heart rate instead of my age - I'll see if it makes a difference using Garmin Connect. Was speaking to my mates last night - one of them said you only did the lactate threashold once a month with doing nothing for two days before or after. Is that right or am I getting my lactate threashold mixed up with my VO2 max? I thought they were one and the same?
    FCN: Brompton: 12, Tourer: 7, Racer: 4

    http://www.60milestonod.blogspot.com
  • You. What?
    I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles
  • LazybikeLazybike Posts: 22
    No they are not the same...http://mtbcoach.com/index.php/training- ... alculator/ do the field test then use the calculator....don't forget to enter the zones manually into connect.
  • Muffintop wrote:
    I do mine off of my maximum heart rate instead of my age - I'll see if it makes a difference using Garmin Connect. Was speaking to my mates last night - one of them said you only did the lactate threashold once a month with doing nothing for two days before or after. Is that right or am I getting my lactate threashold mixed up with my VO2 max? I thought they were one and the same?

    lactate threshold is a relatively gently effort. It's about 10 to 15% less power output than the maximum which can be sustained for ~ 1 hour.

    On the other hand, VO2max is the maximal rate of oxygen that can be utilised by the body.

    in terms of thinking about these things in bike related parlance, lactate threshold is like the maximum effort that could be sustained over say 2 to 4 hours depending on fitness, whereas VO2max could be sustained for several or so minutes maximally.

    No idea, why you'd do no training after either of these tests. with well trained athletes i just have them go out and train straight after a MAP (similar to VO2max) test and in terms of LT testing (which i don't see the point of from a coaching perspective) you'd not even want to worry about going out afterwards. just go. You may want an easy day before a max test (but it'd depend on fitness, current training/fatigue levels, and what you're expecting to get from said test)

    ric
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  • MuffintopMuffintop Posts: 296
    Cheers Guys! I was tapering toward the end on friday - having to lower my gears to keep my cadence at the same mark. I think the idea of doing nothing before or after the VO2 max test was to make sure you weren't depleted before, and that you weren't affecting your training after.

    Mx
    FCN: Brompton: 12, Tourer: 7, Racer: 4

    http://www.60milestonod.blogspot.com
  • imposter2.0imposter2.0 Posts: 11,729
    Muffintop wrote:
    I was tapering toward the end on friday - having to lower my gears to keep my cadence at the same mark.

    you what ?
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