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HS2

walkingbootweatherwalkingbootweather Posts: 2,443
edited January 2013 in Commuting chat
A much needed shot in the arm for the economy bringing the North closer to London, the SE and Europe, or an expensive blot on the landscape?

And more to the point how many bikes will the new trains carry?
Nobody told me we had a communication problem
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  • wgwarburtonwgwarburton Posts: 1,863
    Hi,
    Disappointing that it claims to serve "the North" but only gets halfway to Edinburgh, let alone the actual geographic north of Britain (and by the way...Whatever happened to direct rail services through the Channel Tunnel?)

    Is it the "best" way to spend £33bn? I don't know. Will it transform the economy? I doubt it but, while my head isn't convinced on totally rational grounds, my heart says Build It Now!

    Cheers,
    W.
  • rjsterryrjsterry Posts: 18,941
    Coz, basically it's a massive train set.

    Pretty sure it will make a difference. The short Bristol to London time means that a lot of businesses have moved out that way (those trains are stuffed with suits and laptops in both directions during the week). I can see something similar happening with HS2
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Liberal metropolitan, remoaner, traitor, "sympathiser", etc.
  • rolf_frolf_f Posts: 16,015
    Is it the "best" way to spend £33bn? I don't know. Will it transform the economy? I doubt it but, while my head isn't convinced on totally rational grounds, my heart says Build It Now!

    Can you imagine what impact £33bn would have made to the rail network spread more evenly - eg reconnection of towns no longer rail connected?

    As someone living in Leeds, I'll get a couple of years of benefit from HS2 before I retire ( :lol: ) - it will get me to Brum and London more quickly which will be useful. But aside from those in London, Manchester, Birmingham and Leeds, the benefit seems marginal (particularly given how far out of town the stations for Nottingham and Sheffield are).
    rjsterry wrote:
    Pretty sure it will make a difference. The short Bristol to London time means that a lot of businesses have moved out that way (those trains are stuffed with suits and laptops in both directions during the week). I can see something similar happening with HS2

    Does a quick travel time to London really mean that much other than an extra hours sleep in? The trains from Leeds to London and Birmingham are also jam packed with suits and laptops without the benefit of HS2.
    Faster than a tent.......
  • Rolf F wrote:
    Does a quick travel time to London really mean that much other than an extra hours sleep in? The trains from Leeds to London and Birmingham are also jam packed with suits and laptops without the benefit of HS2.

    Sure. Less time spent travelling means more time spent actually on the customer site working. Even more so if you are charging the travel time to the customer.

    Mike
  • leeefmleeefm Posts: 260
    I reckon the *potential* is massive. It'll link up the traditional manufacturing centres with the financial centre. This should give industry a lot more exposure to international markets.

    The main issue I see is the cost of the fare. They're going to have to price it competitively to achieve the aims; overprice and it will be yet another white elephant.
    Shand Skinnymalinky
    Argon 18 Radon
  • rjsterryrjsterry Posts: 18,941
    Rolf F wrote:
    Is it the "best" way to spend £33bn? I don't know. Will it transform the economy? I doubt it but, while my head isn't convinced on totally rational grounds, my heart says Build It Now!

    Can you imagine what impact £33bn would have made to the rail network spread more evenly - eg reconnection of towns no longer rail connected?

    As someone living in Leeds, I'll get a couple of years of benefit from HS2 before I retire ( :lol: ) - it will get me to Brum and London more quickly which will be useful. But aside from those in London, Manchester, Birmingham and Leeds, the benefit seems marginal (particularly given how far out of town the stations for Nottingham and Sheffield are).
    rjsterry wrote:
    Pretty sure it will make a difference. The short Bristol to London time means that a lot of businesses have moved out that way (those trains are stuffed with suits and laptops in both directions during the week). I can see something similar happening with HS2

    Does a quick travel time to London really mean that much other than an extra hours sleep in? The trains from Leeds to London and Birmingham are also jam packed with suits and laptops without the benefit of HS2.

    Well, a fair few live in Bristol and commute to London - you have to get up early and get home late, but it's doable. Clearly we're talking about those on the upper end of the pay scale as the season ticket must be eye-wateringly expensive, but a lot do it. It's not only that: from my own experience, it was pretty straightforward to run a project in Bristol, from our office in London, but we now have a project on Lancashire and about 6 hours of a 40 hour working week is spent just travelling to site. Sure you can work on the train, but there are limits to this.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Liberal metropolitan, remoaner, traitor, "sympathiser", etc.
  • rolf_frolf_f Posts: 16,015
    I can see the benefits but, ultimately, the benefits could have been so much more widely distributed; it's really a lost opportunity. In future, we'll probably need to travel less anyway - already we do a lot of teleconferences in stead of face to face meetings. They can't replace all meetings but I think a lot of people are in a habit of rushing around the country for meetings when they simply don't need to. Much of the time, there is no need for a physical presence.
    Faster than a tent.......
  • rjsterry wrote:
    but we now have a project on Lancashire and about 6 hours of a 40 hour working week is spent just travelling to site. Sure you can work on the train, but there are limits to this.

    Here's an idea - award the project to a company based in or around Lancashire to avoid the travel, or if your company wins the work move staff to the area for the work week, where they will spend money in local hotels, restaurants, shops etc. Otherwise all these improved transport links achieve is helping to drain the local economy.
    Nobody told me we had a communication problem
  • Kieran_BurnsKieran_Burns Posts: 10,052
    We're having a discussion in the office about the Toton terminus at the moment. It's interesting to hear people from Derby saying it should be in Derby and likewise for the Notts crowd.

    I don't think either have quite understood the impact of trying to get into a City centre would have on journey times.

    The Toton station is sat next to the M1 and the A52. It's a 15 minute drive from EMA (which is the only reason why I would've put it one junction down at J24 and have a tram link from the Airport, but that's just me)

    I dunno - seems a good compromise to me (Notts can extend their tram link from the Uni site)
    Chunky Cyclists need your love too! :-)
    2009 Specialized Tricross Sport
    2011 Trek Madone 4.5
    2012 Felt F65X
    Proud CX Pervert and quiet roadie. 12 mile commuter
  • rjsterryrjsterry Posts: 18,941
    rjsterry wrote:
    but we now have a project on Lancashire and about 6 hours of a 40 hour working week is spent just travelling to site. Sure you can work on the train, but there are limits to this.

    Here's an idea - award the project to a company based in or around Lancashire to avoid the travel, or if your company wins the work move staff to the area for the work week, where they will spend money in local hotels, restaurants, shops etc. Otherwise all these improved transport links achieve is helping to drain the local economy.

    A local firm did originally win the work, but needed additional expertise which wasn't available locally, hence our involvement.

    Moving a member of staff to Lancashire for a two year project? At the client's expense? Even with current ticket prices there is no way that would make sense. Not to mention that she would then be at the wrong end of the country for her other projects.

    The main contractor is locally based though, so most of the money will stay local (until it works it's way through to the multinational manufacturers).
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Liberal metropolitan, remoaner, traitor, "sympathiser", etc.
  • Kieran_BurnsKieran_Burns Posts: 10,052
    rjsterry wrote:
    A local firm did originally win the work, but needed additional expertise which wasn't available locally, hence our involvement.

    Moving a member of staff to Lancashire for a two year project? At the client's expense? Even with current ticket prices there is no way that would make sense. Not to mention that she would then be at the wrong end of the country for her other projects.

    The main contractor is locally based though, so most of the money will stay local (until it works it's way through to the multinational manufacturers).

    I think the idea would be to rent a house and have people there during the week or block book a hotel room (a friend of mine spent 6 months in Ipswich doing this... he's never been the same since.) and then go home at weekends.
    Chunky Cyclists need your love too! :-)
    2009 Specialized Tricross Sport
    2011 Trek Madone 4.5
    2012 Felt F65X
    Proud CX Pervert and quiet roadie. 12 mile commuter
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 52,652 Lives Here
    Main thing is the increase in capacity heading north / south east.
  • sfichelesfichele Posts: 605
    We're having a discussion in the office about the Toton terminus at the moment. It's interesting to hear people from Derby saying it should be in Derby and likewise for the Notts crowd.

    I don't think either have quite understood the impact of trying to get into a City centre would have on journey times.

    The Toton station is sat next to the M1 and the A52. It's a 15 minute drive from EMA (which is the only reason why I would've put it one junction down at J24 and have a tram link from the Airport, but that's just me)

    I dunno - seems a good compromise to me (Notts can extend their tram link from the Uni site)

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-21227007

    So currently a fast train will get you from Nottingham to London STP in 1h44m, and from Derby 1h31m
    The high-speed train will take 51 minutes to Toton, and from there a shuttle bus will supposedly take 12 minutes. A total of 1h13m. But how long are you gonna have to wait for the shuttle bus? And do you really believe a shuttle bus is gonna do it in 12 minutes at rush hour? LOL x 1000 - not a chance in hell. In addition if you were travelling out of London, why would you pay a massive amount of money to use this "fast" service, which takes you to the middle of nowhere, where you then need to transfer on to a grotty shuttle bus or a *slow* tram. In terms of getting from London to the centre of Derby or Nottingham it's completely pointless as they are both already served by high speed trains. By the time you get there it would have been cheaper and most likely faster to have used the existing trains.

    The only people this will benefit are people that travel by car and what a park and ride facility into London. #WhiteElephant
  • keyser__sozekeyser__soze Posts: 2,066
    I think the idea would be to rent a house and have people there during the week or block book a hotel room (a friend of mine spent 6 months in Ipswich doing this... he's never been the same since.) and then go home at weekends.

    Isn't that what RJST is saying/doing already? Six hours travel time in a 40 hour week, rather than six hours a day it'd take if you were to do there/back each day.
    "Mummy Mummy, when will I grow up?"
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  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 52,652 Lives Here
    Focus on speed definitely misses the point. Another line improves capacity. People spending less time on trains for the same journey reduces train congestion.

    That's the main advantage.
  • Kieran_BurnsKieran_Burns Posts: 10,052
    I think the idea would be to rent a house and have people there during the week or block book a hotel room (a friend of mine spent 6 months in Ipswich doing this... he's never been the same since.) and then go home at weekends.

    Isn't that what RJST is saying/doing already? Six hours travel time in a 40 hour week, rather than six hours a day it'd take if you were to do there/back each day.

    Ah. Yeah. Missed that.
    Chunky Cyclists need your love too! :-)
    2009 Specialized Tricross Sport
    2011 Trek Madone 4.5
    2012 Felt F65X
    Proud CX Pervert and quiet roadie. 12 mile commuter
  • rjsterryrjsterry Posts: 18,941
    My point was that for lots of specialist consultant type jobs, the degree of specialism means that there is not enough work in any one area to make a viable business, so these are only going to work on a national basis. For those in these kinds of roles, there will be a pattern of two or three days a week in the office, then visits to one site or another, which might be anywhere in the country. No one project will be large enough to make it viable to relocate for the medium term, so 'head office' will tend to locate at the greatest geographical concentration of work, which inevitably tends towards the south east.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Liberal metropolitan, remoaner, traitor, "sympathiser", etc.
  • leeefm wrote:
    The main issue I see is the cost of the fare. They're going to have to price it competitively to achieve the aims; overprice and it will be yet another white elephant.
    If you go onto the Network Rail journey planner and get a journey from London to Manchester, the fare is £300. Seriously. £300 - and that's now with no high speed line. I reckon you could buy a car with a few weeks of tax and MOT, fill it with fuel and drive the journey for less than £300. Sure it's cheaper if you book ahead but I don't like booking ahead.
    mroli wrote:
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  • rjsterryrjsterry Posts: 18,941
    leeefm wrote:
    The main issue I see is the cost of the fare. They're going to have to price it competitively to achieve the aims; overprice and it will be yet another white elephant.
    If you go onto the Network Rail journey planner and get a journey from London to Manchester, the fare is £300. Seriously. £300 - and that's now with no high speed line. I reckon you could buy a car with a few weeks of tax and MOT, fill it with fuel and drive the journey for less than £300. Sure it's cheaper if you book ahead but I don't like booking ahead.

    Have another go. The current turn up and ride fare to catch the 15.20 is £157. Still a bit pricey, but you only need to plan 24hrs ahead to get it down to £111.50.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Liberal metropolitan, remoaner, traitor, "sympathiser", etc.
  • Kieran_BurnsKieran_Burns Posts: 10,052
    Ummm... I got a single from East Midlands Parkway for £23 the other week. Unfortunately the train got cancelled due to someone walking out on the line....
    Chunky Cyclists need your love too! :-)
    2009 Specialized Tricross Sport
    2011 Trek Madone 4.5
    2012 Felt F65X
    Proud CX Pervert and quiet roadie. 12 mile commuter
  • meanredspidermeanredspider Posts: 12,550
    We should jump a step ahead of those Frenchies and build a MagLev line. It might end up taking 50 years and cost 30Tn but they are so damn impressive - it's PT even I would be happy to ride on :wink:
    ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH
  • TheStoneTheStone Posts: 2,291
    We should jump a step ahead of those Frenchies and build a MagLev line. It might end up taking 50 years and cost 30Tn but they are so damn impressive - it's PT even I would be happy to ride on :wink:

    You jest, but it does seem strange to spend all that money in 2013 and still have a train with wheels.
    exercise.png
  • pangolinpangolin Posts: 3,121
    sfichele wrote:
    So currently a fast train will get you from Nottingham to London STP in 1h44m, and from Derby 1h31m
    The high-speed train will take 51 minutes to Toton, and from there a shuttle bus will supposedly take 12 minutes. A total of 1h13m. But how long are you gonna have to wait for the shuttle bus? And do you really believe a shuttle bus is gonna do it in 12 minutes at rush hour? LOL x 1000 - not a chance in hell. In addition if you were travelling out of London, why would you pay a massive amount of money to use this "fast" service, which takes you to the middle of nowhere, where you then need to transfer on to a grotty shuttle bus or a *slow* tram. In terms of getting from London to the centre of Derby or Nottingham it's completely pointless as they are both already served by high speed trains. By the time you get there it would have been cheaper and most likely faster to have used the existing trains.

    The only people this will benefit are people that travel by car and what a park and ride facility into London. #WhiteElephant

    You might want to do the maths again there. Although adding an extra 10 minutes does help your case :roll:

    Maybe you forgot to round down after adding the x1000 LOLs?
    Genesis Croix de Fer
    Cube Attain
  • meanredspidermeanredspider Posts: 12,550
    TheStone wrote:
    We should jump a step ahead of those Frenchies and build a MagLev line. It might end up taking 50 years and cost 30Tn but they are so damn impressive - it's PT even I would be happy to ride on :wink:

    You jest, but it does seem strange to spend all that money in 2013 and still have a train with wheels.

    I only half jest. The only problem is how bloody expensive MagLev lines are (even the Chinese baulk slightly at spending the money) and, from my experience of the Shanghai system, not the most reliable. Fantastic though! The world goes past as if it's on Fast-Forward but there's no other sensation of speed.
    ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH
  • rjsterryrjsterry Posts: 18,941
    TheStone wrote:
    We should jump a step ahead of those Frenchies and build a MagLev line. It might end up taking 50 years and cost 30Tn but they are so damn impressive - it's PT even I would be happy to ride on :wink:

    You jest, but it does seem strange to spend all that money in 2013 and still have a train with wheels.

    Wheels, eh? Kuh! :roll: After all, South America managed perfectly well without them for about 43,000 years.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Liberal metropolitan, remoaner, traitor, "sympathiser", etc.
  • We should jump a step ahead of those Frenchies and build a MagLev line. It might end up taking 50 years and cost 30Tn but they are so damn impressive - it's PT even I would be happy to ride on :wink:

    Hell we are already ahead of the French cause we use special round wheels :wink:

    I reckon we should save up and just go straight to teleportation though.
    Nobody told me we had a communication problem
  • TheStoneTheStone Posts: 2,291
    I only half jest. The only problem is how bloody expensive MagLev lines are (even the Chinese baulk slightly at spending the money) and, from my experience of the Shanghai system, not the most reliable. Fantastic though! The world goes past as if it's on Fast-Forward but there's no other sensation of speed.

    Have to say, HS1 is fairly impressive.
    Train seems much faster than anything I've been on in France.
    exercise.png
  • Focus on speed definitely misses the point. Another line improves capacity. People spending less time on trains for the same journey reduces train congestion.

    That's the main advantage.

    I thought I was for HS2 (although disagree on the London 2 Birmingham route) however is a capacity increase really needed? And this will be in 20 years time!

    Where will technology be in 20 years time? (think back to where technology was 20 years ago :shock: )

    Will there be the requirement to travel as much?
  • rjsterryrjsterry Posts: 18,941
    Focus on speed definitely misses the point. Another line improves capacity. People spending less time on trains for the same journey reduces train congestion.

    That's the main advantage.

    I thought I was for HS2 (although disagree on the London 2 Birmingham route) however is a capacity increase really needed? And this will be in 20 years time!

    Where will technology be in 20 years time? (think back to where technology was 20 years ago :shock: )

    Will there be the requirement to travel as much?

    We're still using locomotives designed in the 1970s, so I reckon in 20 years time, trains won't be fundamentally different

    300px-19880827-KingsCross-HST-43079.jpg

    According to Wikipedia, they stopped building these in 1982; still see 'em pulling out of Paddington.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Liberal metropolitan, remoaner, traitor, "sympathiser", etc.
  • meanredspidermeanredspider Posts: 12,550
    TheStone wrote:
    I only half jest. The only problem is how bloody expensive MagLev lines are (even the Chinese baulk slightly at spending the money) and, from my experience of the Shanghai system, not the most reliable. Fantastic though! The world goes past as if it's on Fast-Forward but there's no other sensation of speed.

    Have to say, HS1 is fairly impressive.
    Train seems much faster than anything I've been on in France.

    From Wiki (so handle with care)
    As of mid 2011, scheduled TGV trains operate at the highest speeds in conventional train service in the world, regularly reaching 320 km/h (200 mph)

    Faster than HS1

    ETA - whereas the MagLev
    The Transrapid in Shanghai has a design speed of over 500 km/h (310 mph) and a regular service speed of 430 km/h (267 mph). Shanghai Maglev is the fastest railway system in commercial operation in the world
    ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH
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