New Wheelset

gbsahne001

TGOTB wrote:

Let's take a step back. What's your budget, how much do you weigh, and how important (relatively) are weight/stiffness? Do you do much sprinting or out-of-the-saddle climbing, or do you tend to sit and spin?

£150 give or take, 77kg, I'm not that worried on weight, as it's more likely to be loaded up from time to time, so I'd rather it was built more solidly than something lightweight that crumples under load / pothole combination and I probably tend to climb out of the saddle.

Wrath Rob

gbsahne wrote:

TGOTB wrote:

Let's take a step back. What's your budget, how much do you weigh, and how important (relatively) are weight/stiffness? Do you do much sprinting or out-of-the-saddle climbing, or do you tend to sit and spin?

£150 give or take, 77kg, I'm not that worried on weight, as it's more likely to be loaded up from time to time, so I'd rather it was built more solidly than something lightweight that crumples under load / pothole combination and I probably tend to climb out of the saddle.

In my experience, Aksiums flex when climbing out of the saddle and I'm about your weight. Definitely go down the handbuilt route if you can. Yes you'll pay a little more but you'll get a much, much better product and when it comes to replacing the worn rim, you'll only need to pay for new rims rather than buy an entire new wheel. Finally, most machine built wheels (e.g. Mavics) will use non-standard spokes so getting replacements may be hard if you're in a hurry (so says both my LBSs).

tgotb

gbsahne wrote:

£150 give or take, 77kg, I'm not that worried on weight, as it's more likely to be loaded up from time to time, so I'd rather it was built more solidly than something lightweight that crumples under load / pothole combination and I probably tend to climb out of the saddle.

The strength/stiffness tends to come as much from the build as from the rim; I'd go for 3x32 front and back, using Sapim Race or DT Comp spokes. 105 hubs should be fine, and something like Aerohead/Open Pro/Excellight rim, or A23 if you like the idea of going a bit wider. That'd come out around £150 if you shop around, but doesn't account for the building cost (I have no idea at all of the going rate). This will give you a much more robust set of wheels than something like an Aksium, and with a lower rim weight too. If you need to get costs down from here, consider going down a range on the hubs, or possibly the rims, but I don't think it would be wise to cut either quality or number of spokes.
Factory wheels tend to come with very low spoke counts (and quite heavy rims to compensate) and don't normally last as long. When you do break a spoke, replacements can be almost impossible to find (with the exception of DT Swiss, whose factory wheels come with conventional J-pull spokes). Another disadvantage is that replacement rims for factory wheels are very hard to obtain, whereas you can replace the rim on a hand-built wheel and keep the old rim/spokes.

That's my suggestion, will be interesting to see what others come up with...

ugo.santalucia

TGOTB wrote:

gbsahne wrote:

£150 give or take, 77kg, I'm not that worried on weight, as it's more likely to be loaded up from time to time, so I'd rather it was built more solidly than something lightweight that crumples under load / pothole combination and I probably tend to climb out of the saddle.

The strength/stiffness tends to come as much from the build as from the rim; I'd go for 3x32 front and back, using Sapim Race or DT Comp spokes. 105 hubs should be fine, and something like Aerohead/Open Pro/Excellight rim, or A23 if you like the idea of going a bit wider. That'd come out around £150 if you shop around, but doesn't account for the building cost (I have no idea at all of the going rate). This will give you a much more robust set of wheels than something like an Aksium, and with a lower rim weight too. If you need to get costs down from here, consider going down a range on the hubs, or possibly the rims, but I don't think it would be wise to cut either quality or number of spokes.
Factory wheels tend to come with very low spoke counts (and quite heavy rims to compensate) and don't normally last as long. When you do break a spoke, replacements can be almost impossible to find (with the exception of DT Swiss, whose factory wheels come with conventional J-pull spokes). Another disadvantage is that replacement rims for factory wheels are very hard to obtain, whereas you can replace the rim on a hand-built wheel and keep the old rim/spokes.

That's my suggestion, will be interesting to see what others come up with...

I think you have a distorted perception of how much the components you suggest cost.
The cheapest you can possibly source them for is around 170 to 200... then you need to add the building costs

tgotb

ugo.santalucia wrote:

I think you have a distorted perception of how much the components you suggest cost.
The cheapest you can possibly source them for is around 170 to 200... then you need to add the building costs

Fair point. I've just had a quick search, and got to £162 for Open Pros, Sapim Race and 105s. Doesn't account for building costs, as I said above; I have no idea of the going rate.

How much would you budget for building costs, and what would your suggested build be?

ugo.santalucia

TGOTB wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

I think you have a distorted perception of how much the components you suggest cost.
The cheapest you can possibly source them for is around 170 to 200... then you need to add the building costs

Fair point. I've just had a quick search, and got to £162 for Open Pros, Sapim Race and 105s. Doesn't account for building costs, as I said above; I have no idea of the going rate.

How much would you budget for building costs, and what would your suggested build be?

40 pounds is the going rate and I adhere...
Your suggestions are excellent... there are ways to cut costs without cutting the quality... Ambrosio make cheaper rims and Alpina make cheaper spokes, all good quality

supersonic

Merlin build with ACI double butted spokes as standard, 2.0/1.7/2.0 - the best 'lightish' spoke available in my opinion.

Machine built wheels can vary a lot. The very best have the ability to stress relieve wheels too. Mind you handbuilds can vary a lot too ;-)

I would charge 20-25 pound per wheel to build them.

tgotb

ugo.santalucia wrote:

40 pounds is the going rate and I adhere...

Sounds very reasonable indeed, given the effort and skill required.

OP - for your budget you'll be a lot better off talking to this guy than buying something off the shelf...

ugo.santalucia

supersonic wrote:

Merlin build with ACI double butted spokes as standard, 2.0/1.7/2.0 - the best 'lightish' spoke available in my opinion.

Machine built wheels can vary a lot. The very best have the ability to stress relieve wheels too. Mind you handbuilds can vary a lot too ;-)

I would charge 20-25 pound per wheel to build them.

Yes, Alpina is ACI... I agree with you, pound for pound is the best spoke around

And yes, 20-25 GBP per wheel is the going rate... 40 for the set... which is kind of very little. I put at least three hours work in a set of wheels... which makes me very suspicious of LBS rates... they charge the same for a build, but they also charge 40 pounds an hour for the workshop, which suggest they put one hour work in their builds... which implies they are mediocre jobs

UndercoverElephant

TGOTB wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

The spoke pinging method can give you a 25-30% accuracy on the consistency of tensions across the same side of a wheel... but no idea whatsoever about the actual tension... it is a very gross method and those who build using it are not to be relied upon.

I disagree with this entirely. I'm sure your wheels are excellent, but tension meters are at best accurate to about 10%, if you have a good ear and can tune a guitar, you get much closer than this. As for getting the correct tension, as long as you know the length and thickness of the spoke, tension is just a matter of tone.

ugo.santalucia

UndercoverElephant wrote:

TGOTB wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

The spoke pinging method can give you a 25-30% accuracy on the consistency of tensions across the same side of a wheel... but no idea whatsoever about the actual tension... it is a very gross method and those who build using it are not to be relied upon.

I disagree with this entirely. I'm sure your wheels are excellent, but tension meters are at best accurate to about 10%, if you have a good ear and can tune a guitar, you get much closer than this. As for getting the correct tension, as long as you know the length and thickness of the spoke, tension is just a matter of tone.

Lacing and crossing pattern, hub flange, spoke length and rim choice will determine where the spokes cross and which note they produce... Impossible o account for all these difference and get something remotely close to an absolute value, unless you calibrate for all those factors.
I
PS: I have a rather expensive tension meter, which is way more accurate than 10 per cent and calibrated for the spokes I use.

rjsterry

TGOTB wrote:

Sketchley wrote:

It does appear I'm harder braking on rear than front though......

I get this; as I was fishing gunk out of my mudguards this morning I wondered whether it's actually because the rear brakes/rims tend to get more abrasive muck on them than the front...

Pretty sure this exactly what it is. My rear rim is on it's last legs after a year and a bit (think that's right; when did I pick those RS10s up from you Sketchley?) which would make it about 5-6000 miles. I'm sure there's life in the hub, but I've not seen rims for sale anywhere, so it may be time to take advantage of PX's price drop.

sketchley

rjsterry wrote:

TGOTB wrote:

Sketchley wrote:

It does appear I'm harder braking on rear than front though......

I get this; as I was fishing gunk out of my mudguards this morning I wondered whether it's actually because the rear brakes/rims tend to get more abrasive muck on them than the front...

Pretty sure this exactly what it is. My rear rim is on it's last legs after a year and a bit (think that's right; when did I pick those RS10s up from you Sketchley?) which would make it about 5-6000 miles. I'm sure there's life in the hub, but I've not seen rims for sale anywhere, so it may be time to take advantage of PX's price drop.

Yep it's about a year a ago. I'd seriously consider dropping ugo a line rather than buying another factory wheelset. You pay more initially than a cheap factory set as you'll be buying spokes, rims and hubs, but you will get a better wheelset. But in future you'll only need rims and spokes and rebuild when the rim wears. My rear rebuild by ugo (new rim and spoke) was much cheaper than buying a factory wheel as relacement and much better quality......

rjsterry

Sketchley wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

TGOTB wrote:

Sketchley wrote:

It does appear I'm harder braking on rear than front though......

I get this; as I was fishing gunk out of my mudguards this morning I wondered whether it's actually because the rear brakes/rims tend to get more abrasive muck on them than the front...

Pretty sure this exactly what it is. My rear rim is on it's last legs after a year and a bit (think that's right; when did I pick those RS10s up from you Sketchley?) which would make it about 5-6000 miles. I'm sure there's life in the hub, but I've not seen rims for sale anywhere, so it may be time to take advantage of PX's price drop.

Yep it's about a year a ago. I'd seriously consider dropping ugo a line rather than buying another factory wheelset. You pay more initially than a cheap factory set as you'll be buying spokes, rims and hubs, but you will get a better wheelset. But in future you'll only need rims and spokes and rebuild when the rim wears. My rear rebuild by ugo (new rim and spoke) was much cheaper than buying a factory wheel as relacement and much better quality......

You're right. Just have to resist all those wheel sets in the January sales.

ugo.santalucia

rjsterry wrote:

Sketchley wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

TGOTB wrote:

Sketchley wrote:

It does appear I'm harder braking on rear than front though......

I get this; as I was fishing gunk out of my mudguards this morning I wondered whether it's actually because the rear brakes/rims tend to get more abrasive muck on them than the front...

Pretty sure this exactly what it is. My rear rim is on it's last legs after a year and a bit (think that's right; when did I pick those RS10s up from you Sketchley?) which would make it about 5-6000 miles. I'm sure there's life in the hub, but I've not seen rims for sale anywhere, so it may be time to take advantage of PX's price drop.

Yep it's about a year a ago. I'd seriously consider dropping ugo a line rather than buying another factory wheelset. You pay more initially than a cheap factory set as you'll be buying spokes, rims and hubs, but you will get a better wheelset. But in future you'll only need rims and spokes and rebuild when the rim wears. My rear rebuild by ugo (new rim and spoke) was much cheaper than buying a factory wheel as relacement and much better quality......

You're right. Just have to resist all those wheel sets in the January sales.

First sunny wheelset of 2013...

http://paolocoppo.drupalgardens.com/med ... ail/16/251

And I have a very reasonably priced set of Ambrosio Evolution to build up...

viewtopic.php?f=40091&t=12902204

rjsterry

Tempting, but I need to get some cash together first, and I think someone may have beaten me to it.

BTW, I spotted that there is an entire thread devoted to translating your (ugo's) sig on a Latin forum.

veronese68

rjsterry wrote:

BTW, I spotted that there is an entire thread devoted to translating your (ugo's) sig on a Latin forum.

Link? I've been trying to translate it without resorting to looking it up. I'm not doing very well.

rjsterry

http://latindiscussion.com/forum/latin/testicula-tacta-omnia-pericula-fugant.16609/

ugo.santalucia

It means if you squeeze your balls, you will scare away any danger... an old italian tradition that dates back to the romans...
if you go around Italy, you will see lots of people squeezing their genitals when an ambulance or a funeral procession passes by...
I've been in the UK for 12 years and I still do it... in London is a bit of a hassle, as there are ambulances all the time...

veronese68

I wasn't far off than. From my Italian I'd kind of got that it was to do with touchung your balls and danger flying. But hadn't quite got it.
I've been here for 42 of my 44 years and don't tend to do it. But I know the Italians do, didn't fully appreciate the meaning. Makes perfect sense now.

rjsterry

You're a rum lot and no mistake. Think I'll stick to crossing my fingers.

veronese68

rjsterry wrote:

You're a rum lot and no mistake. Think I'll stick to crossing my fingers.

Show off! I still can't cross my fingers on my right hand. Can touch my balls though.

dav1

how about mavic open sport rims? Had them on my last wheels before the R500s I just killed in 11 months of the south wests finest weather...

I should have spent the money re riming my old 105/open sports even though the cost is a lot more then a new set of R500s.

The 500s are great for less then £100 IMO for a winter/pub/cheap roadie, but just don't cut it for the daily grind with their wear rates.

gbsahne001

Dav1 wrote:

how about mavic open sport rims? Had them on my last wheels before the R500s I just killed in 11 months of the south wests finest weather...

I should have spent the money re riming my old 105/open sports even though the cost is a lot more then a new set of R500s.

The 500s are great for less then £100 IMO for a winter/pub/cheap roadie, but just don't cut it for the daily grind with their wear rates.

I've had a set of 500s on the commuter and it's done about 8k, front wheel's been brought back into Winter service though even though it's got a dodgy rim and grumbling bearing.... I ran out of wheels.

Planet X have a set of RS-30s for £130....

purple rain

Coming up to my second year (7k miles a year) on a set of RS30's (75kg here) and they're still going strong....I'd hate to lose a spoke tho.

I've been looking at ugo's blog for a few weeks and the H plus Son Archetype rims look pretty smart built up.

sketchley

purple rain wrote:

Coming up to my second year (7k miles a year) on a set of RS30's (75kg here) and they're still going strong....I'd hate to lose a spoke tho.

I've been looking at ugo's blog for a few weeks and the H plus Son Archetype rims look pretty smart built up.

14k Miles in 2 years on RS30's is very good. However, you are 75kgs, I'm 115kgs, strap 40kgs to your back and try it and they'll be dead in less than 2000 miles......