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New Wheelset

gbsahne001gbsahne001 Posts: 1,963
edited January 2013 in Commuting chat
Could do with some opinions on a new set of wheels for a frame I'm building up, it currently has a tired pair of RS-20s on at this point, which have almost reach the end of their life, the choices within the budget are;-

2013 Mavic Aksium S Road Wheelset
2012 Mavic Aksium Wheels
Shimano RS-20 or 30
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Posts

  • tgotbtgotb Posts: 4,714
    Do they have to be brand new? I often see nice hardly-used wheelsets for sale on forums, for half price or less...
    Pannier, 120rpm.
  • notsobluenotsoblue Posts: 5,838
    Is this for a bike you'll be using for commuting?
  • The kind of mileage you do, I'd be wanting hand-builts with a good few spokes.
  • gbsahne001gbsahne001 Posts: 1,963
    tgotb wrote:
    Do they have to be brand new? I often see nice hardly-used wheelsets for sale on forums, for half price or less...

    Not necessarily, the RS20 wheelset they're replacing were £60 from ebay and have probably done 7k
    notsoblue wrote:
    Is this for a bike you'll be using for commuting?

    Partly, but also for audax / sportives
    The kind of mileage you do, I'd be wanting hand-builts with a good few spokes.

    Possibly, I had a front wheel built last year; 105 hub with a chrina rim for £70
  • pangolinpangolin Posts: 3,342
    Maybe V-Sprint?

    I got some of their basic track wheels for my fixie and they've been great. Discout code is availabe over on fgss.

    http://www.v-sprintwheels.com/pages/road-wheels-sportive.html

    http://www.v-sprintwheels.com/pages/road-wheels-custom.html
    Genesis Croix de Fer
    Cube Attain
  • tgotbtgotb Posts: 4,714
    spasypaddy wrote:
    That looks like pretty good value.

    One of my pet bugbears: Why do shops selling wheels like this never tell you what spokes you're getting? Since I've been building my own wheels, I've come to the conclusion that choice of spoke is every bit as important as the rim, but it's almost never advertised (even for wheels built with very good spokes)...
    Pannier, 120rpm.
  • tgotb wrote:
    spasypaddy wrote:
    That looks like pretty good value.

    One of my pet bugbears: Why do shops selling wheels like this never tell you what spokes you're getting? Since I've been building my own wheels, I've come to the conclusion that choice of spoke is every bit as important as the rim, but it's almost never advertised (even for wheels built with very good spokes)...

    If anything they're even more important.

    ETA: Parker's hand-builts use DT Swiss spokes, Spa cycles use Sapim Race - both excellent choices.
  • rolf_frolf_f Posts: 16,015
    Not sure I'd choose any Mavic wheel for high miles. You'll struggle to get a replacement rim if you need one even if the spokes do turn out to be available. Worth posting this on the Road forums.
    Faster than a tent.......
  • gbsahne001gbsahne001 Posts: 1,963
    tgotb wrote:
    spasypaddy wrote:
    That looks like pretty good value.

    One of my pet bugbears: Why do shops selling wheels like this never tell you what spokes you're getting? Since I've been building my own wheels, I've come to the conclusion that choice of spoke is every bit as important as the rim, but it's almost never advertised (even for wheels built with very good spokes)...

    It's not great value though, I can get a handbuilt wheelset from Parkers for £146; 105 hub, 32FW, 36RW with Chrina rim
  • phy2sll2phy2sll2 Posts: 680
    gbsahne wrote:
    Could do with some opinions on a new set of wheels for a frame I'm building up, it currently has a tired pair of RS-20s on at this point, which have almost reach the end of their life, the choices within the budget are;-

    2013 Mavic Aksium S Road Wheelset
    2012 Mavic Aksium Wheels
    Shimano RS-20 or 30

    Had a set of Velocity A23s on Novatecs built last year (24/28h). Rims are light and wider than the 'standard' 19mm. Gives a very nice ride and stiff as a stiff thing. Only prob is bearing seals are not the best, but I didn't anticipate doing quite as much wet riding as I have!

    Around 300 notes, I think but definitely worth consideration.
  • phy2sll2phy2sll2 Posts: 680
    Oh yes, and infinitely more repairable than Mavics (or any of the 'straight-pull' type Shimanos).
  • phy2sll2phy2sll2 Posts: 680
    Or, if you're going with your heart: Chineeze Krabonz!

    16_1355105754_7.jpg
  • tgotbtgotb Posts: 4,714
    gbsahne wrote:
    tgotb wrote:
    spasypaddy wrote:
    That looks like pretty good value.

    One of my pet bugbears: Why do shops selling wheels like this never tell you what spokes you're getting? Since I've been building my own wheels, I've come to the conclusion that choice of spoke is every bit as important as the rim, but it's almost never advertised (even for wheels built with very good spokes)...

    It's not great value though, I can get a handbuilt wheelset from Parkers for £146; 105 hub, 32FW, 36RW with Chrina rim
    I've no direct experience of Chrina rims, but at first glance they look fairly budget; half the price of Open Pros and around 25% heavier, for a similar profile. You pays your money and you takes your choice.

    Hearing lots of positive comments about A23s; must try a pair.

    Let's take a step back. What's your budget, how much do you weigh, and how important (relatively) are weight/stiffness? Do you do much sprinting or out-of-the-saddle climbing, or do you tend to sit and spin?
    Pannier, 120rpm.
  • spasypaddyspasypaddy Posts: 5,731
    gbsahne wrote:
    tgotb wrote:
    spasypaddy wrote:
    That looks like pretty good value.

    One of my pet bugbears: Why do shops selling wheels like this never tell you what spokes you're getting? Since I've been building my own wheels, I've come to the conclusion that choice of spoke is every bit as important as the rim, but it's almost never advertised (even for wheels built with very good spokes)...

    It's not great value though, I can get a handbuilt wheelset from Parkers for £146; 105 hub, 32FW, 36RW with Chrina rim
    wtf is a chrina rim, wouldnt touch it with yours mate. theres a reason mavic open pro rims are known as one of the best rims on the market.


    also they might be handbuilt but ive got a set of handbuilt 105s with open pros, they were built by a good mechanic, ive had 3 split nipples and endless trouble. So i had them rebuilt by my friend who built my fixie wheels 5 years ago and to this day run true and now they are running beautifully.

    so if they are handbuilt get them done by someone who has a reputation for wheel building rather than 'parkers' handbuilt which im dubious as to how much they are actually handbuilt.
  • tgotbtgotb Posts: 4,714
    spasypaddy wrote:
    wtf is a chrina rim, wouldnt touch it with yours mate. theres a reason mavic open pro rims are known as one of the best rims on the market.
    Actually, one possible issue with recent Open Pros is that they reputedly don't last as long as they used to. I've switched to Ambrosio Excellights which are equally light/stiff, similarly easy to build, and seem to last quite a bit longer (not very scientific I'm afraid!)
    Pannier, 120rpm.
  • phy2sll2phy2sll2 Posts: 680
    Chrinas are made by Rigida. They are at the budget end of the spectrum. 590g vs. 426g for the A23s, 435g for Open Pro or 470g for HPlusSon Archetypes.

    Excellight are popular too.
  • Rigida Chrina rims are excellent, to be honest. They're not the lightest, but they're stiff and tough as hell. Mine have lasted a good 10,000 miles without any problems so far.
  • tgotbtgotb Posts: 4,714
    spasypaddy wrote:
    so if they are handbuilt get them done by someone who has a reputation for wheel building rather than 'parkers' handbuilt which im dubious as to how much they are actually handbuilt.
    This is so true. I'm not quite sure how "machine built" wheels are actually built, but I suspect that a lot of the process is manual anyway. At least a machine has the potential to reach a consistent and predictable standard of build, whereas the variation between a dodgy hand build and a very good one will be huge. Part of what you pay for in a good hand build is advice on which combination of components will best achieve your chosen compromise of cost/weight/stiffness/longevity.

    A quick way to get a feel for the build quality of a wheel is to compare spoke tensions by pinging the spokes. The spokes of a decent hand build will have near-identical pitch (for each side of the wheel) when you ping them. This doesn't tell you whether the spokes are properly seated/destressed, or the components are well chosen, but it's a start. Any wheel with uneven spoke tensions (and some of the cheaper shop-bought wheels are terrible in this respect) isn't going to stay true for long...
    Pannier, 120rpm.
  • spasypaddyspasypaddy Posts: 5,731
    tgotb wrote:
    spasypaddy wrote:
    so if they are handbuilt get them done by someone who has a reputation for wheel building rather than 'parkers' handbuilt which im dubious as to how much they are actually handbuilt.
    This is so true. I'm not quite sure how "machine built" wheels are actually built, but I suspect that a lot of the process is manual anyway. At least a machine has the potential to reach a consistent and predictable standard of build, whereas the variation between a dodgy hand build and a very good one will be huge. Part of what you pay for in a good hand build is advice on which combination of components will best achieve your chosen compromise of cost/weight/stiffness/longevity.

    A quick way to get a feel for the build quality of a wheel is to compare spoke tensions by pinging the spokes. The spokes of a decent hand build will have near-identical pitch (for each side of the wheel) when you ping them. This doesn't tell you whether the spokes are properly seated/destressed, or the components are well chosen, but it's a start. Any wheel with uneven spoke tensions (and some of the cheaper shop-bought wheels are terrible in this respect) isn't going to stay true for long...
    some of the spokes on my wheel were checked with a tension meter before we took them apart and replaced the nipples and retensioned. they were up over 25kgf, when they should have been around the 18-19kgf mark. little wonder they were ripping the nipples out of the rim!
  • The FugglerThe Fuggler Posts: 1,228
    Ugo is well worth talking to on this subject. I'm sure he'll be along in a minute...
    FCN 3 / 4
  • tgotbtgotb Posts: 4,714
    spasypaddy wrote:
    some of the spokes on my wheel were checked with a tension meter before we took them apart and replaced the nipples and retensioned. they were up over 25kgf, when they should have been around the 18-19kgf mark. little wonder they were ripping the nipples out of the rim!

    Those numbers sound very low; are they kgf, or the reading on the tension gauge (which is a measurement of deflection in that you convert to actual tension using the spoke diameter)?

    Nevertheless, a variation between 18 and 25 (whatever the units) is pretty shocking, and 25 would be a very high reading for most spoke/rim combinations; no wonder you had problems!
    Pannier, 120rpm.
  • spasypaddyspasypaddy Posts: 5,731
    tgotb wrote:
    spasypaddy wrote:
    some of the spokes on my wheel were checked with a tension meter before we took them apart and replaced the nipples and retensioned. they were up over 25kgf, when they should have been around the 18-19kgf mark. little wonder they were ripping the nipples out of the rim!

    Those numbers sound very low; are they kgf, or the reading on the tension gauge (which is a measurement of deflection in that you convert to actual tension using the spoke diameter)?

    Nevertheless, a variation between 18 and 25 (whatever the units) is pretty shocking, and 25 would be a very high reading for most spoke/rim combinations; no wonder you had problems!
    reading on the tension gauge
  • tgotbtgotb Posts: 4,714
    spasypaddy wrote:
    tgotb wrote:
    spasypaddy wrote:
    some of the spokes on my wheel were checked with a tension meter before we took them apart and replaced the nipples and retensioned. they were up over 25kgf, when they should have been around the 18-19kgf mark. little wonder they were ripping the nipples out of the rim!

    Those numbers sound very low; are they kgf, or the reading on the tension gauge (which is a measurement of deflection in that you convert to actual tension using the spoke diameter)?

    Nevertheless, a variation between 18 and 25 (whatever the units) is pretty shocking, and 25 would be a very high reading for most spoke/rim combinations; no wonder you had problems!
    reading on the tension gauge
    Eeek! For a DB spoke that's something like 150kgf; I seem to recall Mavic recommend something like 70-90 (which would be more like 18-20 on the gauge...)

    I'm impressed the original builder managed to get them that tight in the first place; must have done the drive-side first, and then wound up the non-drive side against it. That would mean they couldn't then adjust the drive spokes, and tensions would be all over the place :shock:
    Pannier, 120rpm.
  • SketchleySketchley Posts: 4,235
    My wheels are 32 hole Rigida DP18's with Ultegra and single butted spokes, cause i is a fat censored ! Thanks to recommendation on here "ugo.santalucia" has just rebuilt my back wheel, new rim and spokes. Very happy with service and price! I would recommend him highly plus he's based in Richmond which is local for me. I'd also recommend Harry Rowland who built wheelset in first place and adivsed on spec, he's based in Ramsgate with is a bit far away hence why I've swapped and nothing to do with service from Harry.

    I got approx 5,000 miles, mainly in London, out of rear wheel, it was only rebuilt becuase braking surface was noticablly concave and a couple of spokes went one after the other at the nipple, ugo.santalucia put this down to fatigue. Might well of been able to get a bit more out of it and just replace kepp replacing the spokes but why risk it? Front wheel is still more than ok, 5000 miles in a bang on true, it has a good for a few 1000 miles more by the looks of things. It does appear I'm harder braking on rear than front though...... Before getting these I was popping rear wheels every 1500 miles in about 6 months, include a 20 spoke RS20 which on reflection was bad choice at 18stone....

    The DP18 is nice looking rim with the deeper profile and is very strong....
    --
    Chris

    Genesis Equilibrium - FCN 3/4/5
  • rolf_frolf_f Posts: 16,015
    Rigida Chrina rims are excellent, to be honest. They're not the lightest, but they're stiff and tough as hell. Mine have lasted a good 10,000 miles without any problems so far.

    They are good. Mine are on Deore hubs for my tourer and built by Spa so they stay true. That is until last year when both rims were totalled by a huge pothole. The rims were about £18 each to replace though I need to get them tensioned (in the short term I just got a new set of the same from Spa).

    Chrinas are a touring rim so if you aren't planning on loading the bike up there's probably lighter rims in the range worth a look.
    Faster than a tent.......
  • tgotb wrote:
    spasypaddy wrote:
    so if they are handbuilt get them done by someone who has a reputation for wheel building rather than 'parkers' handbuilt which im dubious as to how much they are actually handbuilt.
    This is so true. I'm not quite sure how "machine built" wheels are actually built, but I suspect that a lot of the process is manual anyway. At least a machine has the potential to reach a consistent and predictable standard of build, whereas the variation between a dodgy hand build and a very good one will be huge. Part of what you pay for in a good hand build is advice on which combination of components will best achieve your chosen compromise of cost/weight/stiffness/longevity.

    A quick way to get a feel for the build quality of a wheel is to compare spoke tensions by pinging the spokes. The spokes of a decent hand build will have near-identical pitch (for each side of the wheel) when you ping them. This doesn't tell you whether the spokes are properly seated/destressed, or the components are well chosen, but it's a start. Any wheel with uneven spoke tensions (and some of the cheaper shop-bought wheels are terrible in this respect) isn't going to stay true for long...

    The spoke pinging method can give you a 25-30% accuracy on the consistency of tensions across the same side of a wheel... but no idea whatsoever about the actual tension... it is a very gross method and those who build using it are not to be relied upon.
    I have all sorts of wheel building tools, but the ones I can't do without are the spoke key and the tension meter

    Link to my blog

    http://paolocoppo.drupalgardens.com/
  • tgotbtgotb Posts: 4,714
    Sketchley wrote:
    It does appear I'm harder braking on rear than front though......
    I get this; as I was fishing gunk out of my mudguards this morning I wondered whether it's actually because the rear brakes/rims tend to get more abrasive muck on them than the front...
    Pannier, 120rpm.
  • tgotbtgotb Posts: 4,714
    tgotb wrote:
    spasypaddy wrote:
    so if they are handbuilt get them done by someone who has a reputation for wheel building rather than 'parkers' handbuilt which im dubious as to how much they are actually handbuilt.
    This is so true. I'm not quite sure how "machine built" wheels are actually built, but I suspect that a lot of the process is manual anyway. At least a machine has the potential to reach a consistent and predictable standard of build, whereas the variation between a dodgy hand build and a very good one will be huge. Part of what you pay for in a good hand build is advice on which combination of components will best achieve your chosen compromise of cost/weight/stiffness/longevity.

    A quick way to get a feel for the build quality of a wheel is to compare spoke tensions by pinging the spokes. The spokes of a decent hand build will have near-identical pitch (for each side of the wheel) when you ping them. This doesn't tell you whether the spokes are properly seated/destressed, or the components are well chosen, but it's a start. Any wheel with uneven spoke tensions (and some of the cheaper shop-bought wheels are terrible in this respect) isn't going to stay true for long...

    The spoke pinging method can give you a 25-30% accuracy on the consistency of tensions across the same side of a wheel... but no idea whatsoever about the actual tension... it is a very gross method and those who build using it are not to be relied upon.
    I have all sorts of wheel building tools, but the ones I can't do without are the spoke key and the tension meter

    Link to my blog

    http://paolocoppo.drupalgardens.com/

    I wasn't suggesting it as a method of actually building/truing a wheel, but it's quite an effective layman's tool for illustrating how poorly-built some wheels can be...
    Pannier, 120rpm.
  • rolf_frolf_f Posts: 16,015
    tgotb wrote:
    Sketchley wrote:
    It does appear I'm harder braking on rear than front though......
    I get this; as I was fishing gunk out of my mudguards this morning I wondered whether it's actually because the rear brakes/rims tend to get more abrasive muck on them than the front...

    The rear wheel sprays censored at the rider behind, the front wheel sprays censored at the rear wheel!

    Still, you shouldn't be using the rear much at all. Maybe ultra soft pads are the solution for the back.
    Faster than a tent.......
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