Stepping up to the next level.

matt-h

Hi all,

i am looking to improve the effectiveness of my training.

I can cycle 100 mile sportives with an average speed of 15 mph but want to increase my ave speed.
I have a Focus Cayo 2011 LTD with upgraded wheels (ambrosio rims and 105 hubs) and was thinking of purchasing the Raleigh 200 from Wiggle (£390 C2W Scheme) to use as my winter bike.

The reason for this is my wife kindly bought me a Garmin 800 for Xmas and an Elite Crono Turbo Trainer for B'day.
I was thinking of keeping the Focus on the Turbo over the next couple of months and using the Raleigh for outdoor winter goodness - then swap them over in the summer.

A friend recommended we have a Retul bike fit and VO2 max assessment to really maximise our training, the problem is a cannot afford both.

What would you guys recommend?

I'm quite keen on a winter bike as it means i do not have to change wheels/tyres or clean my bike up from winter muck everytime i want to use the trainer. it will also keep the Focus in good condition.
Also, being time restricted it would add time to a quick 1-2hr turbo session.

Thoughts?

Matt

ut_och_cykla

My thoughts. Do as you suggest - winter bike for iutdoors , nice bike on Turbo. Physiological testing to dial in what you should be doing on the turbo. While you're riding (turbo or outdoors) make sure position is comfy and if it isn't ask local bike shop to help you in the first instance. Unless you already have serious fit issues a Retul bike fit might be overkill but a good test adn follow up information about what to target trainingwise will be of great help

matt-h

Thanks ut,
I am quite happy with my positioning/comfort but didnt know if it was important to get that out of the way before attacking the training.

Any ideas on how much a physiological test may cost?

Matt

Tom Dean

You don't need to use a special tyre on the turbo, or clean your bike every time you use it. The Raleigh is cheap but you will need mudguards and decent tyres straight away. The wheels will probably be awful. Also it's 9 speed so you can't switch parts from your Focus. Waste of money IMO, put mudguards and strong tyres on the Focus.

A bike fit is never a bad idea but can be expensive if you don't have a specific problem you need to fix.

VO2 max testing: what are you going to do with the results?

ric/rstsport

A physiological test in a lab, is, pretty much overkill and a waste of time. If you want to know some data about yourself, there are, potentially, much better ways to go about this. Some field testing with a power meter will tell you more - by doing a TT and a MAP test (sort of similar to a VO2max test, but without measuring the expired respiratory gases).

KNowing your VO2max (e.g. 60 mL/kg/min) won't really help you focus in on your training. You're better off doing a MAP test (and finding out your best 60-sec power during the test and potentially your HR max). The 60-sec power show's your cardiovascular fitness and the size of your engine. At RST Sport we also use this number to calculate your training zones if you have a power meter. For those that don't we'd use HR max. By doing some TT you'll also work out your fitness.

I don't know much about Retul. The majority of elite level athletes i've worked with have never used one (nor have i), and most of the regular athletes i work with have never used it. You can certainly be fitted correctly and aerodynamically to your bike without such a tool, and indeed we do it that way here and at our sister company Aero-Coach. You need to think of Retul as a very accurate tape measure -- the skill lies with the operator using it, rather than the equipment itself.

Self-promotion: to increase your fitness you need to have optimal training. This is best provided via coaching, or via Training Plans, both of which we offer (http://www.rstsport.com).

Ric

cyco2

matt-h wrote:

A friend recommended we have a Retul bike fit and VO2 max assessment to really maximise our training, the problem is a cannot afford both.

There are many ways to 'calculate' vo2 max. but they cannot possibly take the place of a dynamic test. However, to keep a check on your 'improvement' all you need do is record your resting heart rate. It's a simple method but allows you to using the same calculation to reproduce the test. The problem with the dynamic test is can you afford to have another one to see any improvement.

ric/rstsport

How on earth does resting heart rate equate to improvement?

Alex_Simmons/RST

I would suggest a bike fit from a quality bike fitter (I don't think retul is specifically necessary) is a good idea for all relatively serious cyclists, and can certainly ensure problems don't emerge later on. But if you've been going OK so far, then you might be fine to continue on.

VO2 testing is largely unnecessary and probably fairly expensive, and in any case it will more than likely just give you some HR (and/or power) intensity ranges that can be readily determined by self testing and probably not a lot else.

What matters is knowing what and how much training to do, and how to keep it interesting and stay motivated to ride/train.

You can test your own performance progress with a power test of some kind using someone's power meter or ergometer, but if that's not feasible a proxy for power such as time up a hillclimb, and in some cases the wheel speed on a turbo can also be a proxy power measure (but that depends on a few things and is subject to error). Intensity levels can be set with heart rate measurement from such a test.

Perhaps get a good training plan from a coach. Certainly a lot less costly than a VO2 test and likely to be far more effective. We have some good ones if interested and there are other coaches that do plans as well.

okgo

cyco2 wrote:

matt-h wrote:

A friend recommended we have a Retul bike fit and VO2 max assessment to really maximise our training, the problem is a cannot afford both.

There are many ways to 'calculate' vo2 max. but they cannot possibly take the place of a dynamic test. However, to keep a check on your 'improvement' all you need do is record your resting heart rate. It's a simple method but allows you to using the same calculation to reproduce the test. The problem with the dynamic test is can you afford to have another one to see any improvement.

If memory serves this isn't the first time you've spouted utter rubbish like that?

maryka

Best investment you can make having a Garmin and a turbo imo (I've already said this once today on another thread!) is a speed/cadence sensor so you can approximate your power and use that to improve. TrainerRoad is quite popular, for $10/month you get to use their software and also their workouts.

As for the turbo and winter bike thing. don't waste your money on a new 9-speed bike, you're better off picking up something cheap secondhand with 10-speed so you can at least transfer wheels between bikes. Alternatively, use the Focus year-round and just get a second rear wheel for the turbo with a turbo tire mounted on it. Don't need a "real" turbo tire but a heavy cheap tire works best -- decent road tires heat up too much to be useful on a turbo in my experience.

As for fitting, unless you feel like you don't fit your bike well or have problems riding it outdoors (cornering, descending, etc.) then I wouldn't bother. Any testing you do can be done on the turbo (TrainerRoad has their own to determine your threshold power), as long as you retest under the same circumstances you'll be able to measure your improvement.

matt-h

Many thanks for the replies.

AS usual lots of different opnions to digest 8) 8)

So the consensus is that the bike fitting is not required, nor really the physiology test.
Im not at a level where i think coaching is a must that i have to pay out monthly.
My Garmin does have the Speed/cadence sensor and HRM.

Bit unsure about the 2nd bike though. i dont want to abuse the Focus through Winter. I have looked about and have yet to find a real bargain 2nd hand, not to mention that it will be C2W so no massive outlay but monthly payments - can also chuck a bit of clothing in for effectively interest free

I do not want the hassle of changing wheels/tyres over all the time - motivating after work to sit on a trainer is going to be tough enough i reckon

Matt

Tom Dean

It takes about 20 seconds to change a wheel.

ShutUpLegs

Tom Dean wrote:

It takes about 20 seconds to change a wheel.

Thats another level all together

maryka

matt-h wrote:

Bit unsure about the 2nd bike though. i dont want to abuse the Focus through Winter. I have looked about and have yet to find a real bargain 2nd hand, not to mention that it will be C2W so no massive outlay but monthly payments - can also chuck a bit of clothing in for effectively interest free

I do not want the hassle of changing wheels/tyres over all the time - motivating after work to sit on a trainer is going to be tough enough i reckon

Matt

Nothing wrong with having two bikes and I can attest that having one of them permanently set up on the trainer more or less ready to go is quite motivating.

If you can stretch a bit more on C2W then 10-speed is really the way to go. Any last year's models out there you could get at a good discount instead?

ric/rstsport

matt-h wrote:

Im not at a level where i think coaching is a must that i have to pay out monthly.
Matt

Not that i was suggesting you should go the coaching route (i was thinking more in vein of a Training Plan), but i'm curious as to why you think you could (have?) needed physiological testing and high end bike fitting, but not coaching. Out of those the Training Plans (that we sell) are going to be significantly less expensive than either testing or Retul.

Ric

matt-h

Ric/RSTSport wrote:

matt-h wrote:

Im not at a level where i think coaching is a must that i have to pay out monthly.
Matt

Not that i was suggesting you should go the coaching route (i was thinking more in vein of a Training Plan), but i'm curious as to why you think you could (have?) needed physiological testing and high end bike fitting, but not coaching. Out of those the Training Plans (that we sell) are going to be significantly less expensive than either testing or Retul.

Ric

Hi Ric,

It was a friend that recommend the fit and V02 max testing, hence my post on here for opinions.

Matt

ric/rstsport

thanks. feel free to have a look at our Plans. we have plans that are Sportive specific (so are designed for people like yourself). http://www.rstsport.com/?event=training ... an=compare - they're a bargain at approximately £65 (approximately as they're priced in Aussie Dollars).

cheers
ric

amnesia

You may find that the sports department at your local Uni will do a VO2 test for research purposes plus beer tokens...

ric/rstsport

that's definitely true. but you can't always guarantee you'll get any good advice. additionally, as mentioned before i'm not sure there's much/any benefit to doing such testing for the purpose of *coaching* (i say that with my sports science hat on).

maryka

Ric/RSTSport wrote:

that's definitely true. but you can't always guarantee you'll get any good advice. additionally, as mentioned before i'm not sure there's much/any benefit to doing such testing for the purpose of *coaching* (i say that with my sports science hat on).

Ric do you always troll for customers on here? Three posts now, it's a bit over the top. You've got your sigfile, no need to bleat on about your training plans and prices and cast doubt on all other options for the OP. It's an internet forum not an advertising space.

Tom Dean

a bit harsh when you consider some of the crap we get repeated again and again.

rob13

Similar position to the OP, can do distance at a similar speed, or shorter 40-50 at about 17-18mph.

Supersix 105 is only bike, but want something for shitty weather and for commuting. About to get the card out for a Kinesis Racelight T2 to complement it. Need to lose about a stone in weight to get down to somewhere competitive. Need to work harder on power and speed.

Alex_Simmons/RST

maryka wrote:

Three posts now, it's a bit over the top.

If people ask questions or pose issues, we'll try to answer or respond to them, with sound evidence based information and a great deal of expertise and experience when it comes to helping people at all levels to perform better (which is what we do as a profession). What's wrong with that?

maryka

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

maryka wrote:

Three posts now, it's a bit over the top.

If people ask questions or pose issues, we'll try to answer or respond to them, with sound evidence based information and a great deal of expertise and experience when it comes to helping people at all levels to perform better (which is what we do as a profession). What's wrong with that?

It's fine to reply, I don't think it's fine to post training plan prices in the middle of a thread. If people want to look further into coaching or plans, they can follow the links in sigfiles.

Fine line between offering expertise and shilling a product/service imo, especially as a professional. Mods don't seem to care but I find it irritating, that's all.

Sorry for the thread diversion, OP. As you were...

ric/rstsport

Maryka,

A few points: i've been posting on forums providing advice and trying to help people for a long time now (>10 years). It appears that many people appreciate that (the advice that i give, i've had many thanks over the years). I provide some free coaching each year to people i think are 'deserving' in some way as well, and i try and provide some info in magazines as well. Over the years i've provided a stack of free info - and therefore from my point of view i think it's fine to provide links to our services.

If the moderators and owners of the forum and bikeradar don't like that then i'll happily stop and leave. i've never had a single complaint from moderators/owners, and on previous forums i've participated in, i feel i've definitely helped increase readership (or whatever the internet equivalent is) while, at the same time posting links to the services the company provides.

If you don't like me posting such messages, i suggest two things
1) raise a formal complaint to bikeradar, and/or
2) block me so that you can't see my posts. i personally wouldn't want you to see my posts if you're not prepared to see the occasional link to service.

Additionally, the 3rd link that i mentioned (with the price) was because the OP was, i think, looking at perhaps the wrong service for him. so, i pointed him to the correct place and price.

By the way, i'm not certain what you mean by "shilling". Shilling (as far as i'm aware) would involve me pretending to be a customer of (e.g.) RST Sport and saying how great they are (or whatever) and thus pretending to be independent from RST. Whereas, i'm posting as a member of RST and thus can't be shilling? Anyway i've digressed.

Cheers
Ric

bernithebiker

Well said.

As long as it's pertinent to the thread in hand, I see no problem.

g00se

One of the best 'measurements' you cam take is to find your lactate threshold power or heart rate. That's what you need to train at to improve power and speed. VO2Max training is good for sprints and big pushes when you're tired but threshold training is best for getting your speed up over distance.

The training pages on bikeradar are OK. But I would recommend the ones on the british cycling website. You need to join up but that's worth it anyway. There are also others online and lots of books.

ric/rstsport

g00se wrote:

One of the best 'measurements' you cam take is to find your lactate threshold power or heart rate. That's what you need to train at to improve power and speed. VO2Max training is good for sprints and big pushes when you're tired but threshold training is best for getting your speed up over distance.

The training pages on bikeradar are OK. But I would recommend the ones on the british cycling website. You need to join up but that's worth it anyway. There are also others online and lots of books.

Your LT "HR" (there really isn't any such thing) is of very limited value. This is because HR varies at an absolute power due to many factors (e.g. heat, cadence, stress, etc) some of which may affect your power (e.g. significant thermal stress) and some which may not (e.g. cadence? stress). Your LT (which in cycling *is* your power output) is also a somewhat low metric to base training off of. It's roughly 10 - 15% less power than that which you can sustain maximally for about 1 hr.

Furthermore, VO2max, has nothing to do with sprints (this is a function of e.g. neuromuscular power) and can essentially, be thought of as the rate limiting step in aerobic exercise. That is, VO2max is the highest aerobic effort that can be sustained maximally. It's going to be approximately something like (and this will vary significantly between different types of athletes) 2 to 6 times less power (at VO2max) compared to your 5-sec sprint power. VO2max (the maximal rate of oxygen utilisation) sets the upper limit for aerobic exercise and thus 'defines' what power you can maintain during a TT or at FTP. Well trained athletes (that's *both* regular cyclists who may race at the weekend and do say 10 hrs a week, or pro/elite athletes who may train up to 40 hrs/week) can sustain up to about ~90% of VO2max for ~1-hr. Thus to improve your sustainable power (e.g. FTP) you need to work on both your FTP and your MAP (which is easier to calculate and a proxy for VO2max).

Especially for Maryka: we provide coaching services at RST Sport and also put on seminars explaining such things as above. Feel free to give me a shout via www.rstsport.com and our MAP calculator can be seen here http://www.rstsport.com/?event=training&feature=mapTest (you'll need a power meter for it).

Cheers
Ric

Trev The Rev

Ric/RSTSport wrote:

g00se wrote:

One of the best 'measurements' you cam take is to find your lactate threshold power or heart rate. That's what you need to train at to improve power and speed. VO2Max training is good for sprints and big pushes when you're tired but threshold training is best for getting your speed up over distance.

The training pages on bikeradar are OK. But I would recommend the ones on the british cycling website. You need to join up but that's worth it anyway. There are also others online and lots of books.

Your LT "HR" (there really isn't any such thing) is of very limited value. This is because HR varies at an absolute power due to many factors (e.g. heat, cadence, stress, etc) some of which may affect your power (e.g. significant thermal stress) and some which may not (e.g. cadence? stress). Your LT (which in cycling *is* your power output) is also a somewhat low metric to base training off of. It's roughly 10 - 15% less power than that which you can sustain maximally for about 1 hr.

Furthermore, VO2max, has nothing to do with sprints (this is a function of e.g. neuromuscular power) and can essentially, be thought of as the rate limiting step in aerobic exercise. That is, VO2max is the highest aerobic effort that can be sustained maximally. It's going to be approximately something like (and this will vary significantly between different types of athletes) 2 to 6 times less power (at VO2max) compared to your 5-sec sprint power. VO2max (the maximal rate of oxygen utilisation) sets the upper limit for aerobic exercise and thus 'defines' what power you can maintain during a TT or at FTP. Well trained athletes (that's *both* regular cyclists who may race at the weekend and do say 10 hrs a week, or pro/elite athletes who may train up to 40 hrs/week) can sustain up to about ~90% of VO2max for ~1-hr. Thus to improve your sustainable power (e.g. FTP) you need to work on both your FTP and your MAP (which is easier to calculate and a proxy for VO2max).

Especially for Maryka: we provide coaching services at RST Sport and also put on seminars explaining such things as above. Feel free to give me a shout via http://www.rstsport.com and our MAP calculator can be seen here http://www.rstsport.com/?event=training&feature=mapTest (you'll need a power meter for it).

Cheers
Ric

Ric,

If heart rate varies depending on heat cadence and stress, isn't that variation of interest?

In particular is the higher heart rate at higher cadence but for the same power something worth looking at? Does this show that the athlete is burning more oxygen for the same power?

I know 300watts is 300watts, but if your heart rate is higher at say 100rpm than it is at say 80rpm is this significant? Does it show that the athlete is stressed more, having to push harder, breathe harder etc to achieve the same watts?

Say you did 20 minutes at 300watts at 80rpm @ HR 150bpm then did 20 minutes at 300watts at 100rpm @ HR160bpm, would the higher heart rate mean the athlete was more stressed and had to tax his cardiovascular system harder so get a more intense work out at 160bpm than at 150bpm....but both for the same 300watts for 20 minutes?

ric/rstsport

Hard to type on phone on train but u r confusing things thinking that HR governs these issues when it doesn't

Trev The Rev

Ric/RSTSport wrote:

Hard to type on phone on train but u r confusing things thinking that HR governs these issues when it doesn't

I understand heart rate is the result of the effort, work done, or power, but I don't understand why a higher heart rate is not evidence that the athlete has been more stressed.

Not arguing with you just can't get my head round it.