I wanna pay 5k for a bike, but I want it built really s**t

cookeeemonster

Bustacapp wrote:

Rolf F wrote:

Of course they have - but the LBS might not be where you want your expensive bike built up either. Where you want it built up is somewhere that does a lot of builds from scratch (ie more than fitting pedals, adjusting gears, straightening bars etc) - you'll want to go somewhere where you choose each component and the shop knows what that choice involves. It's a completely different experience to picking a bike out of a catalogue. But that said, it doesn't have to be an exclusive experience either. You can take that approach with your beloved Ribble on a £700 bike yet spend £4k on a mass produced bike with few options aside from component sizes. Halfords probably can handle the latter but it isn't really very interesting!

I'm just sick of people barking our the acronym 'LBS' like mindless sheep to be honest. It's 'LBS' this, 'LBS' that and 'LBS' the other, almost as if they cannot do any wrong. So many people on this forum are jumping on the bandwagon it's untrue. You could have a paraplegic lugworm open an 'LBS' and bike snobs would flock to it rather than Halfords. As if Halfords go out of their way to employ lazy, careless staff. You get people like that everywhere and as someone else mentioned, if it's so important to you then build it yourself.

I'd argue they go out of their way to employ minimum wage staff with zero/very limited experience though - same as every other big warehouse store in the UK.

But as others have said, you're gonna get some stores with excellent staff, it's just very hard to find out where they are and what time/day they would be working (the 2 stores my brother used only had a mechanic in on certain days)

I've always found Halfords good for returning/replacing stuff and so on, but the 16 year olds they employ though mostly friendly (if they can be bothered serving you) know even less than me about bikes, which is saying something

il_principe

All of you seem to be missing a key point - Halfords won't be stocking the high end Pinarello bikes. So arguing about people spending £5k plus is a little pointless. They want a larger share of the market, so tying in with Halfords to sell their cheaper bikes makes a lot of sense.

walkingbootweather

So you've got a grand to spend do you buy a top of the range Boardman or a bottom of the range Pinarello? I know what I'd go for.

Bustacapp

CookeeeMonster wrote:

they go out of their way to employ minimum wage staff with zero/very limited experience though - same as every other big warehouse store in the UK.

I would imagine their staff are trained and paid accordingly. Are you saying LBS''s headhunt mechanics from the likes of Team Sky and offer them huge salaries and company cars? Are you saying that my LBS will have a more competent person working there than Halfords?

rolf_f

walkingbootweather wrote:

So you've got a grand to spend do you buy a top of the range Boardman or a bottom of the range Pinarello? I know what I'd go for.

Put like that you can't answer the question. The Pinarello maybe over-priced for the spec and maybe the Boardman is the better bike anyway - in which case the enthusiast picks the Boardman and Bustercapps snob picks the Pinarello.

On the other hand, both could be identical spec in which case logic says you pick the Pinarello for better resale and I say I'd pick the Boardman because I prefer them to Pinarellos!

In reality though, you won't get a top of the range Boardman for the price of a bottom of the range Pinarello. A top end Boardman can easily cost more than a Dogma. But you can't buy those Boardmans at Halfords!

Bustacapp wrote:

I would imagine their staff are trained and paid accordingly. Are you saying LBS''s headhunt mechanics from the likes of Team Sky and offer them huge salaries and company cars? Are you saying that my LBS will have a more competent person working there than Halfords?

The LBS has a much more obvious and immediate incentive to get it right. Crap mechanics won't bankrupt Halfords but they could go a long way to killing a LBS.

walkingbootweather

Rolf F wrote:

walkingbootweather wrote:

So you've got a grand to spend do you buy a top of the range Boardman or a bottom of the range Pinarello? I know what I'd go for.

Put like that you can't answer the question. The Pinarello maybe over-priced for the spec and maybe the Boardman is the better bike anyway - in which case the enthusiast picks the Boardman and Bustercapps snob picks the Pinarello.

On the other hand, both could be identical spec in which case logic says you pick the Pinarello for better resale and I say I'd pick the Boardman because I prefer them to Pinarellos!

In reality though, you won't get a top of the range Boardman for the price of a bottom of the range Pinarello. A top end Boardman can easily cost more than a Dogma. But you can't buy those Boardmans at Halfords!

Isn't that the point. Presumably Halford's marketing strategy is to have an offer at each price point. I can understand them wanting to widen their appeal by having something at the more expensive end of the spectrum but wouldn't they be better off offering the top end Boardmans rather than selling low end Pinarellos. People might be willing to take a punt based on good reviews for a £1000 bike, especially if they are using a c2w scheme, but if I was spending more that a couple of grand, I'd want some expert advice, a bike fitting, a decent test ride and a nice cup of coffee before I put my hand in my pocket. I don't see Halfords doing this.

meanredspider

Question for me (and honestly I don't really care as I won't be buying a Pinarello and I'm never ever buying anything ever again from my local Halfords) is will Halfords have any exclusivity to sell? History might tell us they will - Boardman, for instance and, I believe, Kona for a while too (I had a Kona - went back to the LBS I bought it from and was told Halfords were now exclusive Kona agents). If they don't have exclusivity, it doesn't really matter.

rolf_f

meanredspider wrote:

Question for me (and honestly I don't really care as I won't be buying a Pinarello and I'm never ever buying anything ever again from my local Halfords) is will Halfords have any exclusivity to sell?

It would be very crappy if Pinarello did sign an exclusive agreement. There are shops (eg Bicicielo in Brum) that pretty much only sell Pinarellos. Messing businesses around like that for Halfords would be very poor. Besides, Halfords aren't selling the top end.

suzyb

Bustacapp wrote:

CookeeeMonster wrote:

they go out of their way to employ minimum wage staff with zero/very limited experience though - same as every other big warehouse store in the UK.

I would imagine their staff are trained and paid accordingly. Are you saying LBS''s headhunt mechanics from the likes of Team Sky and offer them huge salaries and company cars? Are you saying that my LBS will have a more competent person working there than Halfords?

I think the general belief is that LBS mechanics are people who set out to be a bike mechanic. They work in an LBS because they love cycling.

But the people that work in a big chain like Halfords are there because they need to work and have been put in the bike department and trained up to work there because that's where the vacancy was.

peat

suzyb wrote:

I think the general belief is that LBS mechanics are people who set out to be a bike mechanic. They work in an LBS because they love cycling.

But the people that work in a big chain like Halfords are there because they need to work and have been put in the bike department and trained up to work there because that's where the vacancy was.

I think that would be my perception too.

But on the 'brand shift' of Halfords, perhaps they see cycling as a more lucrative future direction?

For instance, the sponsored cycling team. Their sports marketing used to be reserved for motorsports (Major sponsor of the Birmingham Superprix in the 80's, Main sponsor of a British Touring Car team in the 90's/00's) but is nowhere to be seen now.

If it means service improves, then great, the consumer wins through increased choice. But, there is the certain risk that some LBS's would go under as a result.

On 'the holy LBS' point: i like my LBS, they nurtured me into it a bit, i get on with them, they stage weekly rides, they give me a bit of discount. In return i am loyal to them and try to put business their way where i can. Some LBS's can be pretty daunting places for complete bike newbies who don't really know what they want. Somewhere like Halfords is probably more of a trusted brand, they can view all the products on the website and compare them at their own pace etc. The customer service may not be all that, but is it so in Tesco either? I don't think people mind. I get the impression that some people go to an LBS to chat about bikes and never buy anything....

MrChuck

walkingbootweather wrote:

Look what happened to old style butchers, bakers and greengrocers unable to compete with multi-national supermarkets. Consider where people used to buy cds and records - the independent retailers were put out of business by competition from chains like HMV who themselves have found themselves unable to compete with Internet sales. Is that what you want to happen to bike retail?

If the majority of people focus on price alone then independent specialists can't survive. I hope there are lots of people like me who value choice, quality, service, expertise and the personal touch, more than saving a few quid, which might give the good LBS a chance of survival.

Thing is a lot of LBSs don't really offer anything more than a higher price, less convenience and hit-and-miss advice and spannering standards. If that's the case why should they survive? Some people will never look beyond the price, some will but there needs to be something there for them to see or that LBS is basically a charity. Lots of people value the things you mention above but those things are rarely what you get IME.

veronese68

MrChuck wrote:

walkingbootweather wrote:

Look what happened to old style butchers, bakers and greengrocers unable to compete with multi-national supermarkets. Consider where people used to buy cds and records - the independent retailers were put out of business by competition from chains like HMV who themselves have found themselves unable to compete with Internet sales. Is that what you want to happen to bike retail?

If the majority of people focus on price alone then independent specialists can't survive. I hope there are lots of people like me who value choice, quality, service, expertise and the personal touch, more than saving a few quid, which might give the good LBS a chance of survival.

Thing is a lot of LBSs don't really offer anything more than a higher price, less convenience and hit-and-miss advice and spannering standards. If that's the case why should they survive? Some people will never look beyond the price, some will but there needs to be something there for them to see or that LBS is basically a charity. Lots of people value the things you mention above but those things are rarely what you get IME.

This'd be where survival of the fittest comes in. The good ones survive and the bad ones don't. Except for one near me that I'm convinced must be a front for some sort of illegal operation. Never seems to have anyone in it and the only guy I know that had something done there it was done so badly I had to put it right for him later. Shop's been there for donkeys years though.

andyb78

Surely a great deal of this is about brand perception on the part of the consumer, both with regards to the manufacturer and the retailer. Would I buy a Pinarello from Halfords? No. (Have I ever bought a Pinarello? No.) Did I buy my Boardman Team Carbon (circa £1k in 2008) from Halfords? Yes - (on the CTW scheme, was it set up properly - no.) However, I've since bought a Carrera Fury for a bit of off road stuff, and it was set up fantastically by the same Halfords store, just a different mechanic.

To use a different analogy, would you buy a Porsche 911 (or should that be Ferrari? ) from a local car dealer who sells diesels, petrols, 4x4s, vans and other stuff? Personally, I would, if the person I was dealing with displayed enough expertise in order to convince me (me having arrived with the relevant expertise of course) that they had the appropriate knowledge, and the price point, for me, was appropriate.

Credibility and trust are clearly an important part of succesful sales; it would seem that Halfords are trying to increase this in the road bike market. As an aside - wonder whether this is a counter to the HOY range with Evans?

Bustacapp

suzyb wrote:

I think the general belief is that LBS mechanics are people who set out to be a bike mechanic. They work in an LBS because they love cycling.

But the people that work in a big chain like Halfords are there because they need to work and have been put in the bike department and trained up to work there because that's where the vacancy was.

I could also make as big an assumption by saying 'an LBS is quite likely to employ family members/close friends due to it being a small business, regardless of their enthusiasm or technical knowhow'.

but I won't.

BelgianBeerGeek

Halfords stick their adverts (sponsorship if you like) on TdF/ITV coverage. Sky ride Pinarellos. So its a way to shift a lot of Pinarellos. Perhaps they wouldn't bother if Sky rode Boardman bikes.

If I wanted a bike like Team Sky's, would I buy it from Halfords? Why not? If I was getting into cycling and wanted to be like Sir Brad but hadn't ridden a bike for 30 years, why not go to Halfords?

meanredspider

I actually think the mechanic at my local Halfords is OK. It's the rest of the idiots led by an complete twunt of a manager that get my goat. If I was drowning and they were selling life rings, I'd probably choose to drown.

suzyb

Bustacapp wrote:

suzyb wrote:

I think the general belief is that LBS mechanics are people who set out to be a bike mechanic. They work in an LBS because they love cycling.

But the people that work in a big chain like Halfords are there because they need to work and have been put in the bike department and trained up to work there because that's where the vacancy was.

I could also make as big an assumption by saying 'an LBS is quite likely to employ family members/close friends due to it being a small business, regardless of their enthusiasm or technical knowhow'.

but I won't.

Please do so. It offers an alternative point of view that I never thought of.

agent_buchwald

I saw an advert for a job at Halfords before Christmas - for an experienced and qualified bike mechanic the pay was less than £7 an hour. I think this has some relevance.

mtb-idle

rubertoe wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

rubertoe wrote:

I'd assume that anyone that is going to be buying a top line bike will have a bit of nous and be able to build it themselves.

Why would you assume that?

I'd have thought that anyone with a vague interest in bikes, would have an idea of how to maintain and build one. Maybe not straight of the bat but there is plenty of material out there.

Obviously I'm wrong.

I have made the same assumption in the past too but it's amazing how wrong this is.

I know guys in my office who cycle daily into work and have done for years, have ridden etapes and the whole 'normal' cycling experience and yet when i mention to them that i've changed my chainset or cassette they stare at me in amazement and tell me they wouldn't have a clue where to start.

They take everything bar changing a tyre to the LBS. #shakesheadindisbelief

walkingbootweather

MTB-Idle wrote:

They take everything bar changing a tyre to the LBS. #shakesheadindisbelief

'tis true. The other week I was in a LBS and a chap wanders in with a half decent bike and asks the mechanic to fix his puncture. The chap had actually brought his whole bike down to the shop in the back of his car!!! Mechanic charges £10 for the fix including a new tube and is done before I've finished browsing. Even if you can't fix the puncture, surely you can remove the wheel rather than bring the whole bike?

mtb-idle

Agent Buchwald wrote:

I saw an advert for a job at Halfords before Christmas - for an experienced and qualified bike mechanic the pay was less than £7 an hour. I think this has some relevance.

So that's £12,740 before tax.

Okay, to me and possibly a lot of you that's a low wage but how does that compare to the wages in an LBS? I'm not trying to be clever, i just don't have an idea whether that is comparable.

kelsen

walkingbootweather wrote:

MTB-Idle wrote:

They take everything bar changing a tyre to the LBS. #shakesheadindisbelief

'tis true. The other week I was in a LBS and a chap wanders in with a half decent bike and asks the mechanic to fix his puncture. The chap had actually brought his whole bike down to the shop in the back of his car!!! Mechanic charges £10 for the fix including a new tube and is done before I've finished browsing. Even if you can't fix the puncture, surely you can remove the wheel rather than bring the whole bike?

MAMILs innit

category in which I fall under :oops:

dynamicbrick

Only one person seems to have mentioned what I think - this is Halfords changing long-term strategic direction.

Let's be honest, there's little money in car spares these days; there's very little routine home maintenance you actually need to do on a car these days, indeed a lot of them require significant tools and expertise just to change the ruddy headlight bulb. They saw this some time back, and moved to a fitting business from a pure parts supply business.

Halfords recently announced that the bike sales were up 12% (IIRC) in 2012, and by far and away their most profitable business line. They sponsor the ITV Tour coverage, have a UK Tour team (?), have a well established cycle scheme, and an awful lot of convenient out-of-town real estate (it is far easier for me to get to a Halfords than just about any Evans, for example). It all fits together nicely.

Good luck to 'em, I say. It will also be funny watching the brand snobs tie themselves in knots over this, and whatever else they add to the range

However, if they want a proper share of the market, they do need to do something about the cycling accessories range - it's very piecemeal and manages to have nothing much of any note.

confused@BR

+1 Halfords have been under pressure to change the 'business model' for some time. The car spares and D I Y maintenance business has been fading and they have been kept afloat by Satnavs. In the past two or three years that has died too. Well done Halfords, recognized the problem and adapted to cope. Jessops and HMV not in such a fortunate position.

Furthermore, Halfords seem to have adjusted their property profile over the years, most of the stores now appear to beon Retail Parks with free and ample parking. I do not expect the Pinarello's marketed to be sold at £5K though.

meanredspider

dynamicbrick wrote:

Good luck to 'em, I say. It will also be funny watching the brand snobs tie themselves in knots over this, and whatever else they add to the range

However, if they want a proper share of the market, they do need to do something about the cycling accessories range - it's very piecemeal and manages to have nothing much of any note.

You were doing so well up to the last para when you seem to indict yourself with the previous para.

arthur_scrimshaw

Some lazy thinking going on here, pandering to common perceived 'wisdom'.

My CX has had some problems shifting, I thought the rear hanger might be bent (after my lovely 17 yr old daughter ran into the back of me at full tilt) so phoned up Halfords for a replacement. The guy there couldn't have been more helpful, asked me to drop it in and they could probably straighten it as they had the gear to do this. Collected it today, shifts perfectly, wasn't the hanger but it needed a new rear gear cable (doh!) which they replaced (inner & outer).

Total cost £9.49. My LBS would have charged £25 minimum for this.

MrChuck

Arthur Scrimshaw wrote:

Some lazy thinking going on here, pandering to common perceived 'wisdom'.

I think that's sort of the point of a lot of the posts here. The perceived wisdom is that Pinarello are a premium brand, and Halfords is where people who don't know anything about bikes go to get their son's £300 MTB with the forks on backwards.

Regardless of how true either of those things are in practice, at the higher end of the market perception is everything- if it wasn't nobody would ever buy anything than Boardman and nobody would spend over £1K. And perceived wisdom can be very hard to change even when it's wrong. So I think what most people find interesting is that Pinarello have chosen to, on the face of it, give up a lot of that intangible extra that people are buying when they choose a Pinarello instead of a Trek or Giant in return for associating their bikes with the bottom end of the market.

meanredspider

Arthur Scrimshaw wrote:

Some lazy thinking going on here, pandering to common perceived 'wisdom'.

I'm not sure that's fair. Could actually be common received experience??? Plenty of us have been to Halfords and have made our own minds up - some will be good and some bad. Plenty of us who have bought Boardmans have real experience of buying a bike from Halfords. I could write a page on the things that have gone wrong for me at the local Halfords (both bike and car related) - that's why I won't now even cross the threshold

ETA - the guys at the local Alpine Bikes (300m down the road from Halfords) clearly love cycling, can't do enough to help and often won't charge for doing the simpler jobs

arthur_scrimshaw

meanredspider wrote:

Arthur Scrimshaw wrote:

Some lazy thinking going on here, pandering to common perceived 'wisdom'.

I'm not sure that's fair. Could actually be common received experience??? Plenty of us have been to Halfords and have made our own minds up - some will be good and some bad. Plenty of us who have bought Boardmans have real experience of buying a bike from Halfords. I could write a page on the things that have gone wrong for me at the local Halfords - that's why I won't now even cross the threshold

Apologies, it wasn't aimed at you, I know you've had bad experience of Halfords from previous posts, it's more the 'my mates brother had crap service from Halfords' kind of stuff evident in a few of the posts which then becomes the 'truth'. The point being the there's bad LBS shops as well as good Halfords?

dynamicbrick

meanredspider wrote:

dynamicbrick wrote:

Good luck to 'em, I say. It will also be funny watching the brand snobs tie themselves in knots over this, and whatever else they add to the range

However, if they want a proper share of the market, they do need to do something about the cycling accessories range - it's very piecemeal and manages to have nothing much of any note.

You were doing so well up to the last para when you seem to indict yourself with the previous para.

It was a bit of an afterthought, based on me having £71 left on my LOC after I'd sourced the Cube via their C2W scheme. About the only thing of any real 'use' is another set of SPDs.

Not so much a brand snobbery comment, more a case of them not stocking a decently wide range of lights, pedals, computers, etc when compared with Evans. If they had this online, especially if I could order then collect from my local non-bikehut store about 500yds down the road, then I'd be down there without a doubt... mainly because it's convenient, has ample parking for bike and car, and isn't actually a bad place to shop (when compared with the local Evans, which isn't any of that).