Belfast...
pinno
Posts: 52,091
Not here to argue about unionism, nationalism, flag raising or the politics of the matter.
If you have watched the recent news about the protests in Belfast, the thing that I noticed more than anything was the omnipresence of kids chucking bricks to petrol bombs. Why are the parents of these kids allowing them to be on the front line ? Do the parents not care about the welfare of their offspring ?
As if those children understand the mechanics of protest and politics and as if its doing them any good to be exposed to and participate in burning cars or throwing stuff at riot police. Baffles me.
If you have watched the recent news about the protests in Belfast, the thing that I noticed more than anything was the omnipresence of kids chucking bricks to petrol bombs. Why are the parents of these kids allowing them to be on the front line ? Do the parents not care about the welfare of their offspring ?
As if those children understand the mechanics of protest and politics and as if its doing them any good to be exposed to and participate in burning cars or throwing stuff at riot police. Baffles me.
seanoconn - gruagach craic!
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It goes far, far, far deeper than just the kids being out there without the parents knowing where they are - after all, we're not just talking about kicking in a bus shelter after 2 litres of Strongbow.
Not being Northern Irish/Republican Irish/Loyalist Irish/etc etc, I wouldn't dare even comment on the feelings that the families (on both sides of the religious politico divide) who live there have - way beyond my knowledge and limited experience - but at the end of the day its all down to very deep rooted, beliefs, feelings and wants, mingled in with a sprinkling of politicisim and cynical exploitation by parties with a vested interest that causes it all.
No easy answer (or difficult answer) to it all - as we've see, its all been relatively calm on the media reported surface recently but underneath its like the veritable powder keg waiting to go off public at any moment.0 -
pinarello001 wrote:Not here to argue about unionism, nationalism, flag raising or the politics of the matter.
If you have watched the recent news about the protests in Belfast, the thing that I noticed more than anything was the omnipresence of kids chucking bricks to petrol bombs. Why are the parents of these kids allowing them to be on the front line ? Do the parents not care about the welfare of their offspring ?
As if those children understand the mechanics of protest and politics and as if its doing them any good to be exposed to and participate in burning cars or throwing stuff at riot police. Baffles me.
Not unique to Belfast/Northern Ireland....it was the kids rioting/looting in London 2011“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0 -
believe me you dont want to know, this place just defies logic sometimes.0
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The parents probably encourage them to "protest".Cervelo S5 Ultegra Di2.0
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You only have to look at the orange parades and you see kids as young as 7 or 8 swinging the the pole/stick or whatever the hell they call it. it's not rocket science to guess what their neanderthal parents teach them, its passed on down through generations. its just a pity it couldnt be towed into the mid atlantic and let them get on with it.0
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Gazzetta67 wrote:You only have to look at the orange parades and you see kids as young as 7 or 8 swinging the the pole/stick or whatever the hell they call it. it's not rocket science to guess what their neanderthal parents teach them, its passed on down through generations. its just a pity it couldnt be towed into the mid atlantic and let them get on with it.
Tow my city into the mid-atlantic you say, and deprive the world of all these people, off the top of my head-
George Best footballing genius, van morrison, james galway, gary moore, brian kennady muciscal,
Mary Peters Olympic Gold, Norman Whiteside youngest player ever in World cup finals,
CS Lewis writer of lion witch and wardrobe, Blanchflower brothers top drawer footballers,
Roy walker, Frank Carson and Jimmy Cricket top drawer comedians,
Lord Kelvin, scientist, invented something highly important for the advancement of mankind,
in fact loads of scientists, engineers , Kenneth Brannagh actor,
Jim McDonald acting genius, Eammon Holmes larger than life broadcasting genius and many many more...
Ok, you can float Gerry adams and Ian paisley off out to the Atlantic and our politics is f**ked, but we've produced top men and women not bad for a small city, so a bit of perspective please0 -
And anyway, if it was towed off to the mid atlantic the Argentinians would only try and lay claim to it, opening up that whole can of sardines ......0
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grifterveteran wrote:Gazzetta67 wrote:You only have to look at the orange parades and you see kids as young as 7 or 8 swinging the the pole/stick or whatever the hell they call it. it's not rocket science to guess what their neanderthal parents teach them, its passed on down through generations. its just a pity it couldnt be towed into the mid atlantic and let them get on with it.
Tow my city into the mid-atlantic you say, and deprive the world of all these people, off the top of my head-
George Best footballing genius, van morrison, james galway, gary moore, brian kennady muciscal,
Mary Peters Olympic Gold, Norman Whiteside youngest player ever in World cup finals,
CS Lewis writer of lion witch and wardrobe, Blanchflower brothers top drawer footballers,
Roy walker, Frank Carson and Jimmy Cricket top drawer comedians,
Lord Kelvin, scientist, invented something highly important for the advancement of mankind,
in fact loads of scientists, engineers , Kenneth Brannagh actor,
Jim McDonald acting genius, Eammon Holmes larger than life broadcasting genius and many many more...
Ok, you can float Gerry adams and Ian paisley off out to the Atlantic and our politics is f**ked, but we've produced top men and women not bad for a small city, so a bit of perspective please
Apologies Grifter - I should have added let all the decent folk live in peace and go about their day without all this outdated nonsense. Eh you forgot to mention Gloria Hunniford & Sky's cycling girl Orla Chinniaou
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yup we should put them all on an island somewhere and let them fight it out.
.... oh wait.0 -
ha ha!my bike - faster than god's and twice as shiny0
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I once read an autobiography of a Soldier in Northern Ireland in the 70's / 80's.
He said really young children would come upto him in a friendly manner, as toddlers are inquisitive and don't know any different. Then when the children get older, some children then started throwing bricks at him. However , these children had no idea why they were doing this. They were just told to by parents/mentors/their community."The Prince of Wales is now the King of France" - Calton Kirby0 -
I remember a program by Bill Conelly years ago where he was walking around Belfast cemetery. He said that when it was made it was for both catholics and protestants but one of the bishops insisted that there was an underground wall built across it to segregate the two halves.
I always wondered if it was a joke, but sadly no, a quick Google gives several sources to show that they were indeed that f*cking stupid.
The older I get, the better I was.0 -
probably some consecrated ground thing rather than sectarianism Id have thought. Im guessing this was a while ago?0
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BLOODY RELIGION!!!!!0
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paul_mck wrote:probably some consecrated ground thing rather than sectarianism Id have thought. Im guessing this was a while ago?
Both apparently. There were walls to separate consecrated ground from non, catholics, protestants and jews. These walls were 9 feet high but underground and hidden from view. The date was 1869 but regardless of this you have to wonder what was going through their tiny* minds. What did they think they were keeping apart?
*most appropriate in this case
The older I get, the better I was.0 -
not sure, but Ill bet that wasnt an Ireland only thing. Id say similar happened all over the world.0
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I wish the people of Northern Ireland all the very best. However, I think the differences are so deep rooted I don't think things will ever be truely right. There will be a vaneer of normality but once it's scratched the old bigotries are there for all to see unfortunately.
It's a bit (only a bit) like the bitterness held toward Nottinghamshire folk with regard the miners strikes.
Bitterness endures unfortunately.
Tail end Charlie
The above post may contain traces of sarcasm or/and bullsh*t.0 -
'dont forget lads, one evertonian is worth twenty kopites'0
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Honestly 90% of people in NI are not interested in this nonsense any more. These protests are being driven by dark forces (paramilitaries) for their own ends, the flag aspect has provided a convenient touchstone for them to motivate a group of socially and economically deprived individuals to take to the streets for a reason few of them could articulate.
A Jewish man was burying his deceased mother in Belfast, he went to the cemetery to arrange a plot for her. The attendant asked "was she Catholic or Protestant?", "She was Jewish" he replied.
After a moments pause the attendant said, "Aye, but was she a Protestant Jew or a Catholic Jew?"0 -
The whole thing is not over a flag its about one party attempting to regain a seat that was lost. The whole thing rapidly got out of hand. I heard this morning even the UDA are calling for the violence to stop. But no-one considered that this would be a straw that broke the camels back situation and that a lot of disgruntled loyalists saw it as enough is enough. Its not just about kids having a riot it runs much deeper.0
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paul_mck wrote:The whole thing is not over a flag its about one party attempting to regain a seat that was lost. The whole thing rapidly got out of hand. I heard this morning even the UDA are calling for the violence to stop. But no-one considered that this would be a straw that broke the camels back situation and that a lot of disgruntled loyalists saw it as enough is enough. Its not just about kids having a riot it runs much deeper.
Enough of what though? The majority of councils in the UK don't flag the union flag 365 days a year on their townhalls or council buildings. It has been flown in Belfast for 365 days a year since 1908, Belfast in 2013 isn't the same as 1908.
I do agree that it's not the flag that's the issue anymore, the DUP printed and posted 1000's of that leaflet to hammer the Alliance party. The Alliance came up with the designated days alternative, Sinn Fein and the SDLP wanted it taken down altogether, but the DUP painted them as the culprits and used the local protestant community to start this disorder. This is just typical of them, for years when big ian was their leader he done the exact same thing, then sat back and watched as people wrecked their own areas and fought with the cops. You'd honestly think they would cop onto thisa tactics by now,0 -
oh I agree Liam, just trying to present the facts without being biased. As if I get started I might not stop lol.0
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Phil Fouracre wrote:BLOODY RELIGION!!!!!
Religion is used as an excuse. Some of the most prominent Republicans of the past were Protestant including Wolfe Tone. I suspect that even the republican / loyalist thing isn't even the main driver in many cases any more, it is just a case of rival gangs running the crime in certain areas and people looking for an excuse to go out and cause trouble. People will always find an excuse to do this whether it is politics, religion, football, race or coming from different clans / tribes.0 -
dont underestimate how bitter many loyalists are about their current position. Been reading a few FB pages etc and one thing is clear this is more than just some thugs causing trouble.
For example: http://www.facebook.com/loyalistprotestupdater?fref=ts0 -
LiamW wrote:
Enough of what though? The majority of councils in the UK don't flag the union flag 365 days a year on their townhalls or council buildings. It has been flown in Belfast for 365 days a year since 1908, Belfast in 2013 isn't the same as 1908.
I do agree that it's not the flag that's the issue anymore, the DUP printed and posted 1000's of that leaflet to hammer the Alliance party. The Alliance came up with the designated days alternative, Sinn Fein and the SDLP wanted it taken down altogether, but the DUP painted them as the culprits and used the local protestant community to start this disorder. This is just typical of them, for years when big ian was their leader he done the exact same thing, then sat back and watched as people wrecked their own areas and fought with the cops. You'd honestly think they would cop onto thisa tactics by now,
Absolutely - but the DUP/Orange Order etc. stoke things up by picking fights which any reasonable person can see that they will not (and probably should not) win - Drumcree/Garvaghy Rd is another example. Then there is a big burst of violence etc, which we all pay for in many different ways. But the biggest damage is that they feed the myth of the protestants/loyalists always loosing out and what they define as their culture being eroded - which stacks up grievances and builds up into a vicious cycle.
Basically, there is a lack of any worthwhile, intelligent leadership on the unionist side, that recognises that they need to build a consensus with the large proportion of people that identified themselves as Northern Irish in the census - otherwise there will be even bigger trouble ahead. Personally I am seriously thinking of giving up on the place and moving away (I would really like to move to Cork, where my wife's from, but she won't go back. Some great cycling down there!!!).
Pross is also right about criminal gangs though, been the case through much of the "Troubles".0 -
They need to bulid a consensus with those who define themselves as Nationalist and Republican 1st of all whether they like it or not. This is supposed to be a shared society nowdays, but maybe it's only on someone else's terms.
I'm like yourself, if i had a chance to move somewhere else then i'd be away like a shot. This place annoys the hell out of me.0 -
Its a great spot when things are quiet. But when the shine wears off the scum come out. The flag issue was voted on democratically. There were 2 public consultation sessions prior to the vote where 3 people turned up.
says it all. If the flag goes up again this place is doomed. If it doesnt, who knows when the nonsense will stop.0 -
Yeah there were a few consultations and only a few turned up. To be honest I never noticed the flag was there doesnt bother me either way flown or not. Only thing that bothers me is trying to get somewhere when they employ their illegal roadblocks a.k.a protests which is taking us back 30 odd years.
The rioters are just wrecking their own areas and unfortunately for them they somehow fail to see that. Months or perhaps years down the line they will be up in arms complaining their areas are downtrodden and like a slum. There is poor areas on both sides but they are just making it worse for themselves and Northern Ireland a laughing stock in the eyes of those from the rest of the world.
Tonight, you guessed it more riots in East Belfast (or public disorder as the PSNI put it)0 -
its a crazy situation in belfast, the local council DEMOCRATICALLY voted over the flag issue and one whingeing side of the religous divide just doesnt like it and are behaving like spoilt brats with mindless thuggery on the streets bringing untold shame upon n.ireland as the rest of the world looks on in disbelief :roll:2012 Cannondale CAAD 8 1050
