Chain Device Help

cooldad

It's a northern thing. Too much Broon Ale.

ilovedirt

Try it and see. No dropped chains on a superstar top guide, and it only cost £15 and I didn't have to buy a jigsaw or power drill either...

The Rookie

But mine cost £11.50 and is lighter and less visibly intrusive, so why don't you try that and see?

milko9000

It's mainly the less visible that I'm interested in. But this thread seems to have gone crosswired. Does anyone actually think the inner guide ring idea isn't going to work because of not covering the top surface of the chain? That appears to be the only argument against them, so if the chain's rattling enough to actually leap upwards off the ring high enough it could still come off.

The Rookie

Most chain derailing occurs where it moves sideways enough fo it to miss a tooth and then rolls off as the chainwheel turns, this an inner guide (ring or N-gear jump stop) will prevent, I know a fair few people using the jump stop who've never had a problem with it at FoD, CC and CYB.

My daughter used the jump stop but lives in a very hilly area, as such when setting the pedals (back pedaling) in 1st/2nd it was derailing at the bottom, she used a stinger to stop it, but in inner ring will work for that as well.

There are 3 commercially availble setups and it's also used on a reasonable nuymber of 1x OEM bikes even if most are road biased.

Unless you are doing Enduro or DH then I am certain an inner ring will work fine, the harsher inputs that flap the chain on those MAY cause it to jump over a ring (unless you have a damped mech like the Shimano plus or SRAM 2) but the people I know of with a Jump stop have never had these issues at UK trail centres (as an example of the inputs they put into the bikes).

ilovedirt

milko9000 wrote:

It's mainly the less visible that I'm interested in. But this thread seems to have gone crosswired. Does anyone actually think the inner guide ring idea isn't going to work because of not covering the top surface of the chain? That appears to be the only argument against them, so if the chain's rattling enough to actually leap upwards off the ring high enough it could still come off.

That's exactly what I'm saying.
The chain moves about a LOT more than you might think when you're riding bumpy at speed (and i don't just mean when riding proper downhill stuff). I guarantee that won't work as effectively as something with extra protection such as a full cage at the top.

Either way, try it and see, but I'd rather spend £70-£100 on a proper guide. Yes that's about 10 times what you made yours for, but given what I've spent on the rest of my bikes in total, it's a fairly small amount of money to guarantee that my chain stays on. After all, there's nothing worse than a little niggling thing like that to ruin a ride or stop you half way down a lovely flowy bit of trail.

I've dropped a chain maybe two or three times in the whole of 2012, and that was only because i somehow managed to bend the backplate on my gamut guide.


OR, as I said previously, if you're only using the bike for XC etc and don't have any power tools handy, buy the superstar XCR guide, as when set up correctly, it won't drop the chain, even when backpedaling (trust me).

milko9000

Well, ideally I won't try it and see, I'll just do whatever I choose once and that'll be it - hence me butting in on the thread.

Have you used an inner guide unsuccessfully then? I've got shadow+ on the mech which I assume will also help a bit (and it's a hardtail). I'm just trying to work out if you're just saying this based on theory or what. "With all due respect, the beginner doesn't really know what he's talking about most of the time" suggests it might be more personal ;-)

Having watched this vid http://www.pinkbike.com/news/Giant-Maes ... ology.html from about 2min you get to see some pretty dramatic chain slap which does indeed suggest a top guide is a good thing to have.

The Rookie

ilovedirt wrote:

I guarantee that won't work as effectively as something with extra protection such as a full cage at the top.

So how much are you offering as a guarantee if mine doesn't come off? £100?

'Work as effectively' clearly means keeping the chain on, not letting it fall off, so if mine stays on it's worked....

I think your producing specualtive BS here based purely on your thoughts and opinions without actually having an open mind and considering the facts.

As stated there are lots of these being sold commercially, are they ripping customers off or are you wrong?

Have a read...
http://forums.mtbr.com/drivetrain-shift ... 53396.html

milko9000

oho, the Envy one linked off there might sort me out, says there's a "Freeride" model that covers 30-36t. If I can find one actually for sale.

ilovedirt

I say this mainly based on the fact that I've set up and used a silly amount of chain guides, some that worked, some that didn't. That and the fact that the beginner often talks a lot of rubbish.

lawman

In principle both would work, but imo, and this is in relation to stuff like the widget and not a dig at the beginners excellent homemade efforts. the double bash looks crap, the top guides look better, are lighter than two bash guards, and if you have two carbon ones, well they'll be feck all use if you smash it so won't work anyway, I'd personally go for the top guide and shadow plus/type 2 mech.

The Rookie

ilovedirt wrote:

That and the fact that the beginner often talks a lot of rubbish.

Like your offer to guarentee it's lack of effectiveness then?

If I wasn't already going to be using a bash I wouldn't be going the twin ring route, as I am.......

Lawman, we keep doing this hitting carbon fibre thing and the arguement keeps getting destroyed, why bring it up AGAIN?

lawman

The Beginner wrote:

ilovedirt wrote:

Lawman, we keep doing this hitting carbon fibre thing and the arguement keeps getting destroyed, why bring it up AGAIN?

Carbon has its uses, I'm a very strong believer in carbon, but a light weight double bashguard that weighs less than a top guide, so circa 50-70g, is going to have compromise on strength to reach that level of lightness. It's entirely doable, but I'm not too sure. It's not as simple as cutting out two bash shapes out of carbon, this will compromise its strength, so a proper molded carbon bash designed to match the strength of modern day bashguards would no doubt end up heavier than a top guide.

I just think its one of those designs that hasn't caught on for this very reason, as most DH orientated bikes come with guides like the E13 LG! and MRP G2 with taco guards, which are lighter. For pure xc use, top guides win any day for me

ilovedirt

The Beginner wrote:

ilovedirt wrote:

That and the fact that the beginner often talks a lot of rubbish.

Like your offer to guarentee it's lack of effectiveness then?

I said less effective than a proper guide. Which it will be.

mcnultycop

Well the Raidium arrived today. It looks good and arrived quickly; however the frame is in the LBS for its headset and I left the new cranks in the office so it won't be fitted for a while.

The Rookie

ilovedirt wrote:

The Beginner wrote:

ilovedirt wrote:

That and the fact that the beginner often talks a lot of rubbish.

Like your offer to guarentee it's lack of effectiveness then?

I said less effective than a proper guide. Which it will be.

A guide is either effective (chain stays on) or not (chain falls off) so if my chain stays on NOTHING ELSE could have been more effective for me than that could it....... so you guarenting or not (aka put up or shut up!)

mcnultycop

So after all that, the Raidium doesn't work. It fouls the frame.



The cranks aren't pushed all the way into the bottom bracket in that photo. The Scandal frame bulges in that area too much.

Maybe back to the Superstar top guide now?

ilovedirt

I hate to say I told you so, but...
Stick to the superstar guide, they work

mcnultycop

It's be a great solution on a less bulgy frame.

lawman

Well on a xc frame such as the scandal it shouldn't be an issues, so i guess it would have no chance of working on a burlier, longer travel frame.

that kind of guide of guide isn't seen often, and as we can see, there's a reason for that. Top guide all the way.

The Rookie

Mine is 146mm diameter (outside a 32t plus chain) and fits on my frame just fine, sorry to see your frame is moire critical.

mcnultycop

It looks like it would fit really comfortably on my Nerve AM, which is quite annoying.

milko9000

I got an Enve Double E. It's a bit bigger than the Raidium, I was too worried about the 34t cog, since that only claims it'll do 32t.

Anyway, no chance, not nearly going to fit around the frame, dagnabbit. Otherwise it looked really neat. So, ISCG05 guide it is, just have to decide if I want top-only or if I may as well get the bottom part done too while I'm doing it. The clutch mech does seem to be keeping things nice and tight so I may not bother.

mcnultycop

I've just ordered the Superstar top guide, so I'll see how that goes.

The Rookie

ilovedirt wrote:

I hate to say I told you so, but...

...... nowhere at all did you say it wouldn't fit....your point was...oh you didn't have one (sit rep - all normal)