HR Zones analysis

stevez

Have decided to use HR Zone as a basis for my training in 2013. Having set up all my zones on my Garmin Edge 500, I now can't find any data in Garmin Connect bar basic HR data. I'm especially interested in seeing how long I spent in each zone.

Anyone know if this can be done on Garmin Connect?

amaferanga

Have you set up your zones in Connect? If not then click on your name in the top right corner --> Settings --> Training Zones.

stevez

Yep zones are all set up correctly in Connect, just can't find any HR analysis in Connect at all???

Dave_P1

I don't think Garmin Connect tells you the amount of time you've spent in each zone

Trev The Rev

stevez wrote:

Have decided to use HR Zone as a basis for my training in 2013. Having set up all my zones on my Garmin Edge 500, I now can't find any data in Garmin Connect bar basic HR data. I'm especially interested in seeing how long I spent in each zone.

Anyone know if this can be done on Garmin Connect?

You don't have problems like this if you train with feel.

Alex_Simmons/RST

Trev The Rev wrote:

stevez wrote:

Have decided to use HR Zone as a basis for my training in 2013. Having set up all my zones on my Garmin Edge 500, I now can't find any data in Garmin Connect bar basic HR data. I'm especially interested in seeing how long I spent in each zone.

Anyone know if this can be done on Garmin Connect?

You don't have problems like this if you train with feel.

Newer riders often need help to learn to know the sensations of riding at appropriate intensities, and using guides such as HR or power can be very helpful to help them calibrate that.

You have had the benefit of using such tools for a long time and probably have well tuned your calibration of PE.

stevez

Trev The Rev wrote:

stevez wrote:

Have decided to use HR Zone as a basis for my training in 2013. Having set up all my zones on my Garmin Edge 500, I now can't find any data in Garmin Connect bar basic HR data. I'm especially interested in seeing how long I spent in each zone.

Anyone know if this can be done on Garmin Connect?

You don't have problems like this if you train with feel.

It's also a wel known fact that your brain will tell your body to stop before you have reached the physical limit of your bodies capability (ask any elite cyclist or rower!!) So as much as using feel is useful, the physiological facts maybe that your cheating yourself!

Trev The Rev

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

Trev The Rev wrote:

stevez wrote:

Have decided to use HR Zone as a basis for my training in 2013. Having set up all my zones on my Garmin Edge 500, I now can't find any data in Garmin Connect bar basic HR data. I'm especially interested in seeing how long I spent in each zone.

Anyone know if this can be done on Garmin Connect?

You don't have problems like this if you train with feel.

Newer riders often need help to learn to know the sensations of riding at appropriate intensities, and using guides such as HR or power can be very helpful to help them calibrate that.

You have had the benefit of using such tools for a long time and probably have well tuned your calibration of PE.

I see your point, however unless you did no sport as a child, most people should be able to judge effort well, what people learn when they use gadgets is to calibrate the effort they feel into a heart rate or power number. We don't feel heart rate or power but we can learn to convert our 'feel' into a number, be that number heart rate, power or even a PE number.

I fear some people may never learn how to feel properly if they start out using numbers. We already have a race of people who can't do the slightest calculation in their head, need an app to tell them when to drink or take on carbohydrate, need a GPS device to get them home, now we are encouraging cyclists to become reliant on heart rate and watts. Might as well have a chip put in our head at birth.

Trev The Rev

stevez wrote:

Trev The Rev wrote:

stevez wrote:

Have decided to use HR Zone as a basis for my training in 2013. Having set up all my zones on my Garmin Edge 500, I now can't find any data in Garmin Connect bar basic HR data. I'm especially interested in seeing how long I spent in each zone.

Anyone know if this can be done on Garmin Connect?

You don't have problems like this if you train with feel.

It's also a wel known fact that your brain will tell your body to stop before you have reached the physical limit of your bodies capability (ask any elite cyclist or rower!!) So as much as using feel is useful, the physiological facts maybe that your cheating yourself!

You need to speak to some elite athletes that have won races. Do you think Sir Steve Redgrave was looking at power data when he won those Gold Medals? Did you see Mo Farrah looking at his heart rate when he won the 5,000 & 10,000 meters? Winners don't race by numbers.

stevez

Trev The Rev wrote:

I fear some people may never learn how to feel properly if they start out using numbers. We already have a race of people who can't do the slightest calculation in their head, need an app to tell them when to drink or take on carbohydrate, need a GPS device to get them home, now we are encouraging cyclists to become reliant on heart rate and watts. Might as well have a chip put in our head at birth.

It's called evolution, and it's exactly this approach that has made British Cycling and Team Sky the envy of the rest of the World. Becoming better at cycling isn't a dark art, it's science, and it's governed by numbers!

stevez

Trev The Rev wrote:

You need to speak to some elite athletes that have won races. Do you think Sir Steve Redgrave was looking at power data when he won those Gold Medals? Did you see Mo Farrah looking at his heart rate when he won the 5,000 & 10,000 meters? Winners don't race by numbers.

As someone who currently manages 3 Olympic Champion cyclists and 2 members of Team Sky I think I probably know more than most on how these guys go about preparing to win. Why do you think the guys have power meters on their bikes when they ride? their training dictates how long they can hold a certain level of effort for and then they apply that to a race situation, i.e. if they know (through training) the maximum they can hold a 500W effort for is 20mins without blowing up and that's what it takes to get up the Tourmalet, then come race day they'll be looking for 500W on the SRM and hold it there to the top.

This is why you don't see Brad jumping out the saddle on climbs, he knows exactly what wattage he's going to ride each climb and he keeps it there.

Trev The Rev

stevez wrote:

Trev The Rev wrote:

I fear some people may never learn how to feel properly if they start out using numbers. We already have a race of people who can't do the slightest calculation in their head, need an app to tell them when to drink or take on carbohydrate, need a GPS device to get them home, now we are encouraging cyclists to become reliant on heart rate and watts. Might as well have a chip put in our head at birth.

It's called evolution, and it's exactly this approach that has made British Cycling and Team Sky the envy of the rest of the World. Becoming better at cycling isn't a dark art, it's science, and it's governed by numbers!

In 5 or 10 years we might know how much was dark art and how much was science. It will also be interesting to see how well BC & Sky do now so many of their dark art practitioners have had to leave. Wiggins tour victory is tainted, his team on the road and the coaching team contained self confessed cheats. There is a lot more to their science than power meter or heart rate data, be it legal or not.

I assume you and your riders are pleased to see the back of the cheats? Did you know about these cheats? How did your riders feel working with those cheats? Why didn't your riders go to the authorities about these cheats? Were they friendly with these cheats? I assume you didn't manage any of those who had to leave Sky?

As you know so much about how these guys prepare to win please enlighten us. Don't worry about the power meter data, we all know about that, it is freely available to anyone, nothing clever, there is even cheap software, or free software.

I'm interesting in what they really do.

Edit: If you know so much about cycling why are you planning to train using a heart rate monitor - you must be able to afford a power meter. You do know Sky pay little or no attention to heart rate.

stevez

Standard response to the 'old school' of we do it on feel brigade, is when someone innovates in cycling and uses sports science to succeed, then they must be doping. I understand why guys like you feel this way but if you know anything about guys like Dave Brailsford, Shane Sutton, Matt Parker and Tim Kerrison you'll know that isn't Team Sky's way of operating.

As for me i'm pretty rubbish on a bike, but want to get better. Yes, power is better than using HR, but I don't want to spank £1,200 on SRM cranks whether I can afford them or not.

Anyway shall we try and get back on topic!

Trev The Rev

stevez wrote:

Standard response to the 'old school' of we do it on feel brigade, is when someone innovates in cycling and uses sports science to succeed, then they must be doping. I understand why guys like you feel this way but if you know anything about guys like Dave Brailsford, Shane Sutton, Matt Parker and Tim Kerrison you'll know that isn't Team Sky's way of operating.

As for me i'm pretty rubbish on a bike, but want to get better. Yes, power is better than using HR, but I don't want to spank £1,200 on SRM cranks whether I can afford them or not.

Anyway shall we try and get back on topic!

I do know I'm surprised Brailsford, Sutton & Kerrison were happy to work with cheats.

You assume I don't train with power, I do, I also use feel & heart rate. Feel always works, gadgets don't. Can't help but think there is so much power meter data talk coming from Sky because TrainingPeaks is now a sponsor. They never mentioned it before.

danowat

Trev The Rev wrote:

You assume I don't train with power, I do, I also use feel & heart rate. Feel always works, gadgets don't.

You (again) assume you are unique in the fact that you use feel to supplement power (and or HR), you aren't.

Trev The Rev

danowat wrote:

Trev The Rev wrote:

You assume I don't train with power, I do, I also use feel & heart rate. Feel always works, gadgets don't.

You (again) assume you are unique in the fact that you use feel to supplement power (and or HR), you aren't.

You again.

Team4Luke

stevez wrote:

Trev The Rev wrote:

You need to speak to some elite athletes that have won races. Do you think Sir Steve Redgrave was looking at power data when he won those Gold Medals? Did you see Mo Farrah looking at his heart rate when he won the 5,000 & 10,000 meters? Winners don't race by numbers.

As someone who currently manages 3 Olympic Champion cyclists and 2 members of Team Sky I think I probably know more than most on how these guys go about preparing to win. Why do you think the guys have power meters on their bikes when they ride? their training dictates how long they can hold a certain level of effort for and then they apply that to a race situation, i.e. if they know (through training) the maximum they can hold a 500W effort for is 20mins without blowing up and that's what it takes to get up the Tourmalet, then come race day they'll be looking for 500W on the SRM and hold it there to the top.

This is why you don't see Brad jumping out the saddle on climbs, he knows exactly what wattage he's going to ride each climb and he keeps it there.

equally also you could underperform as well by following numbers, race day brings adrenaline and extra competitiveness where you are able to give it more rather than let riders go away while your stuck with numbers.

Team4Luke

and GC does not provide that data in answer to the question, you need aftermarket training software.
Bring back Polar Advisor I say !

maddog 2

aside from all this wittering, can anyone actually answer the original question?

Or if Connect can't do it, whether another software/method can give you the zone times?

rsands

Trev the Rev you should be on the tour de france podium! Every post seems to show your quite powerful with knowledge and getting the best. How is someone meant to know from feel if they have no knowledge of what it feels like.

I played sports all my life in small quantities but i wasnt a heart rate expert by feel as i never knew my heart rate - all i knew was i was breathing quite fine and breaking a sweat. I know now by feel and usually glance at heart rate to backup my feeling. Your comparing apples and oranges - the pros know because they have had that training, they know their heart rate by feel...how did they learn that? By guess? By Chance? No they learn by someone telling them or reading what their heart was doing. I learnt to know my hear rate by feel by feeling what it was like at different rates over a period of time

The OP was asking a question about seeing the data and all you have done is provide a useless answer

Back to OP - can you not see the graphs in Connect? It would show it in chart form - not sure if connect can show time spent in each zone - or I must have missed it

rich164h

maddog 2 wrote:

aside from all this wittering, can anyone actually answer the original question?

Or if Connect can't do it, whether another software/method can give you the zone times?

Garmin connect doesn't appear to but I'm pretty sure that the desktop Garmin tool (training centre) does, and also Sporttracks does this as well.

stevez

maddog 2 wrote:

aside from all this wittering, can anyone actually answer the original question?

Or if Connect can't do it, whether another software/method can give you the zone times?

Can't be done using Connect apparently. Can be done using Strava Premium, Training Peaks etc. but you have to pay for them.

mike101

Training Peaks basic is free and gives you HR Zones by time. So does the Garmin Training Centre download.

bhickey

stevez wrote:

Have decided to use HR Zone as a basis for my training in 2013. Having set up all my zones on my Garmin Edge 500, I now can't find any data in Garmin Connect bar basic HR data. I'm especially interested in seeing how long I spent in each zone.

Anyone know if this can be done on Garmin Connect?

Yes. If you select the ride you want to view the detailed data for, a screen will be displayed with all the various data fields (elevation, timing etc). If you look at the HR feld you will see three sub-fields to the right - bpm, % of max and zones. If you select 'zones' the graph showing HR on the right of the screen will be re-formatted (bpm is the default) to display your HR data in zones. It assumes you have your zones properly set up on the Edge 500 and that the data has been captured properly (ie you have been wearing the HRM during the ride).

If this description doesnt help you I will try to post a screen grab.

Cheers.

stevez

It displays the data in Zones which is in itself interesting, but I was more interested in time spent in each zone which I don't think it can display?

bhickey

stevez wrote:

It displays the data in Zones which is in itself interesting, but I was more interested in time spent in each zone which I don't think it can display?

I cant see a way of doing that unless you manually estimate it by selecting time for the x axis and then use the cursor to select start/stop times - messy, time consuming and inaccurate so not a good solution. I use a Polar HRM for non bike activity and their Pro Trainer displays the data in the way you would like so I know what you are after. I'll defer to some of the other posters who have suggested upload to other analytical tools - unless Garmin support can offer some additional thoughts...?

Tom_UK

You will need to use the Garmin Training Center software to view that data without using a paid for solution I believe.

Alex_Simmons/RST

Trev The Rev wrote:

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

Trev The Rev wrote:

stevez wrote:

Have decided to use HR Zone as a basis for my training in 2013. Having set up all my zones on my Garmin Edge 500, I now can't find any data in Garmin Connect bar basic HR data. I'm especially interested in seeing how long I spent in each zone.

Anyone know if this can be done on Garmin Connect?

You don't have problems like this if you train with feel.

Newer riders often need help to learn to know the sensations of riding at appropriate intensities, and using guides such as HR or power can be very helpful to help them calibrate that.

You have had the benefit of using such tools for a long time and probably have well tuned your calibration of PE.

I see your point, however unless you did no sport as a child, most people should be able to judge effort well,

That is not the case in my (considerable) experience - pacing on a bike is quite tricky for newer riders to get right, and many other sports that people may have come from either have the more consistent resistance feel of running or swimming (which you don't have on a bike), or are more sprint/ballistic in nature (e.g. football, netball) where pacing isn't as important.

And when I check the pacing of those who race time trials, guess what the #1 mistake made is?

How many times have you let riders go ahead at the start of a hillclimb, only to overhaul them halfway and leave them in your wake?

Pacing is a learned skill in cycling. And one needs to learn that the sensations one feels actually change, even though actual effort (power) doesn't.

Trev The Rev

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

That is not the case in my (considerable) experience - pacing on a bike is quite tricky for newer riders to get right, and many other sports that people may have come from either have the more consistent resistance feel of running or swimming (which you don't have on a bike), or are more sprint/ballistic in nature (e.g. football, netball) where pacing isn't as important.

And when I check the pacing of those who race time trials, guess what the #1 mistake made is?

How many times have you let riders go ahead at the start of a hillclimb, only to overhaul them halfway and leave them in your wake?

Pacing is a learned skill in cycling. And one needs to learn that the sensations one feels actually change, even though actual effort (power) doesn't.

Pacing is a learned skill and if you learn it by numbers you will become reliant on numbers. Many riders can pace very well indeed without a power meter, even time triallists and they have done so for decades. A power meter is a great tool in the right hands, there is no need to brainwash people into believing you need one to train & race or need one to pace correctly.

Pacing is a skill, it is sad to see that skill being lost. You do not need a power meter to pace properly but you do need a brain, preferably a brain that can understand what the body is telling it rather than one that can only look at numbers and follow orders.

Power meters should be banned in races anyway.

Alex_Simmons/RST

Trev The Rev wrote:

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

That is not the case in my (considerable) experience - pacing on a bike is quite tricky for newer riders to get right, and many other sports that people may have come from either have the more consistent resistance feel of running or swimming (which you don't have on a bike), or are more sprint/ballistic in nature (e.g. football, netball) where pacing isn't as important.

And when I check the pacing of those who race time trials, guess what the #1 mistake made is?

How many times have you let riders go ahead at the start of a hillclimb, only to overhaul them halfway and leave them in your wake?

Pacing is a learned skill in cycling. And one needs to learn that the sensations one feels actually change, even though actual effort (power) doesn't.

Pacing is a learned skill and if you learn it by numbers you will become reliant on numbers. Many riders can pace very well indeed without a power meter, even time triallists and they have done so for decades. A power meter is a great tool in the right hands, there is no need to brainwash people into believing you need one to train & race or need one to pace correctly.

Pacing is a skill, it is sad to see that skill being lost. You do not need a power meter to pace properly but you do need a brain, preferably a brain that can understand what the body is telling it rather than one that can only look at numbers and follow orders.

Power meters should be banned in races anyway.

I have not:
1. sought to brainwash anyone
2. said pacing is not a learned skill, nor suggested it's something good time triallists don't already do well*
3. suggest one can't learn to pace without a power meter or "numbers"

so don't put words in my mouth.

Computers of all types are banned in all track races (well having a visible display is banned - you can still record the data).


* indeed I demonstrated this very fact in my discussion paper on time trial pacing optimisation where I quantitatively analysed the pacing of riders from pro tour to club amateur level - the most successful TT riders pace very well (as one would expect)

Trev The Rev

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

Trev The Rev wrote:

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

That is not the case in my (considerable) experience - pacing on a bike is quite tricky for newer riders to get right, and many other sports that people may have come from either have the more consistent resistance feel of running or swimming (which you don't have on a bike), or are more sprint/ballistic in nature (e.g. football, netball) where pacing isn't as important.

And when I check the pacing of those who race time trials, guess what the #1 mistake made is?

How many times have you let riders go ahead at the start of a hillclimb, only to overhaul them halfway and leave them in your wake?

Pacing is a learned skill in cycling. And one needs to learn that the sensations one feels actually change, even though actual effort (power) doesn't.

Pacing is a learned skill and if you learn it by numbers you will become reliant on numbers. Many riders can pace very well indeed without a power meter, even time triallists and they have done so for decades. A power meter is a great tool in the right hands, there is no need to brainwash people into believing you need one to train & race or need one to pace correctly.

Pacing is a skill, it is sad to see that skill being lost. You do not need a power meter to pace properly but you do need a brain, preferably a brain that can understand what the body is telling it rather than one that can only look at numbers and follow orders.

Power meters should be banned in races anyway.

I have not:
1. sought to brainwash anyone
2. said pacing is not a learned skill, nor suggested it's something good time triallists don't already do well*
3. suggest one can't learn to pace without a power meter or "numbers"

so don't put words in my mouth.

Computers of all types are banned in all track races (well having a visible display is banned - you can still record the data).


* indeed I demonstrated this very fact in my discussion paper on time trial pacing optimisation where I quantitatively analysed the pacing of riders from pro tour to club amateur level - the most successful TT riders pace very well (as one would expect)

Sorry Alex. Points taken.