Fighting, well, self defence

napoleond

You can train all you like, I've seen numerous martial arts 'experts' come a cropper when they've crumbled under pressure.
I have a black 'sash' at lau gar Kung fu but, having to fight with people on pretty much a daily basis, I always resort to the same core of techniques that work for me. Usually, as mentioned before, a quick open handed strike to the face as a distraction followed by moving in and taking the legs out. If things have gotten worse then elbows have come in to play. This is why I think Krav Maga is good as it is fluid, adaptable and doesn't stand for any nonsense.
For me, once they are on the floor I can handcuff. For others who aren't law enforcement then it gives you a better chance of running away...

ben@31

Jujitsu.

Like an aggressive judo... throwing, chocking and arm locking an attacker. Even if you're small and he is big (leverage?).

It seems you can use jujitsu in a real life situation, like in a crowded pub to put an attacker off. Fancy spinning reverse roundhouse combo kicks whilst shouting "hadouken!" just wouldn't work on the floor of a crowded pub.

All the UFC fighters learn Jujitsu as a core skill.

Here is an impressive video of some jujitsu http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&featu ... fPPHlxwP1g

bompington

I used to live near Krav Magna. Oh, wait a minute, it was Chew Magna.

zx6man

I used the taijutsu to fend off a drunken attacker (I was a drunken victim). Didn't have time to perform any streetfighter finishing moves, too many button presses...

ben@31

zx6man wrote:

I used the taijutsu to fend off a drunken attacker (I was a drunken victim). Didn't have time to perform any streetfighter finishing moves, too many button presses...

Easy all you have to do if you're attacked by a drunkard on the way home from the pub is Forward, Down, Forward, Y when close to your opponent. Then shout "fatality" or "flawless victory" as you punch through is ribcage and rip his spine out. (requires Sub-Zero’s Classic costume to have access to this move)

heavymental

Nap D, is that really a regular thing? What is the law on striking someone during an arrest or other 'situation'?

I think to some extent most blokes like to consider having a punch up now and again but as others have said, the reality is so much uglier than you ever anticipate. Its easy to get seriously injured and as The Streets lyric goes... Its never the Jackie Chan scene you think it's going to be. A guy i know got punched outside a nightclub,hit his head on a curb and is now in a wheelchair requiring 24hr care. He really was that 'lovely bloke' that you always hear about in news reports. A genuine one in a million guy who lit up a room. Of course i think it's good to know some skills which will hopefully embed themselves deeply enough into your brain to happen automatically should someone attack you but avoiding a situation at all costs is really a very valuable lesson imo.

I have always enjoyed watching boxing but i know that I just haven't got the belly for it! That first punch to the head and I'd be straight back through the ropes! I'm told that being 'crazier' than your opponent(s) when in a brawl is a good idea to plant a seed of doubt in their mind but the truth is that not many of us can turn into crazed animals even when it's required. Most people who do martial arts are probably the least likely to ever throw the first punch and its that kind of mentality you need sometimes to show you're the big kahuna when things get ugly.

heavymental

Oh and a yoga fire, sonic boom or haduken from a few metres back is a good way to avoid confrontation at close quarters. Worth a try.

napoleond

Heavymental wrote:

Nap D, is that really a regular thing? What is the law on striking someone during an arrest or other 'situation'?

Yes, particularly in custody as I have no protective eqpt.

As long as its justified anything goes. After initial training Police officers (in my force) get about 8 hours every 18 months self defence refresher training. I used to do that at kung fu in a week, plus practice in my own time! But experience is the best teacher and you get to know what works. In a fight or flight situation (although we aren't supposed to do the 'flight' bit!) you end up doing whatever has worked for you in the past.
That's where someone like Geoff Thompson and his 'reality' training methods excel. It puts you in as close to a real situation as possible and your body learns what to do. That experience means if it happens for real you have that pre programmed response.

richsieb

+1 on the Krav Maga.

Garry H

ben@31 wrote:

Jujitsu.

Like an aggressive judo... throwing, chocking and arm locking an attacker. Even if you're small and he is big (leverage?).

It seems you can use jujitsu in a real life situation, like in a crowded pub to put an attacker off. Fancy spinning reverse roundhouse combo kicks whilst shouting "hadouken!" just wouldn't work on the floor of a crowded pub.

All the UFC fighters learn Jujitsu as a core skill.

Here is an impressive video of some jujitsu http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&featu ... fPPHlxwP1g

That video is awful and would be exactly the kind of thing that I would advise people not to do. It looks like pseudo combat. The people doing the attacking moves look like people who are shi*e at karate. It's far too "stylistic".

For the purpose of self-defence, I would stick to something that's practiced "full contact", such as judo, submission grappling, boxing, Muay-Thai etc. Even then it will take a couple of years, at least, to gain some degree of proficiency. Better still, and if you have the time and inclination, cross train in diffrent ones

BTW, when UFC fighters say they've done Ju Jitsu, they mean Brazillian Ju Jitsu, not "traditional" Japanese Ju Jitsu. BJJ is basically Judo with less throwing and more groundwork.

pinno

Having come from deepest darkest Hafrica and known to all at school as Nig*er lips or spear chucker and asked questions like "Why aren't you black?, Did you live in a mud hut?, Why don't you go back?" and all that shyte, I had to learn to defend myself. I don't think there were more than 2 months between fights and I won some and I lost some - but they got uglier and uglier.
After leaving school, i went to a self defence class that was taught by an ex street fighter from Manchester. He was good because he could keep his head in any situation but above all his classes tried to emulate real life: like standing at a bus stop in a duffle coat carrying two bags of shopping and someone attacks you. Ironically, I have only had one fight since leaving school because the best defence is to avoid one in the first place.
Those in the class who had never had a fight were a pushover to start with 'cos they were full of fear, it took ages for them to get composure. Self defence is a multi-level thing if done properly.
If I did it now, it would be kickboxing. I did some sparring for a little while with a friend of mine (who is now doing his Purple in a certain style of Kung Fu). 1 minute of combinations in intervals and your fooked, big time. I did not realise how fit you have to be to box or kick box. You also learn to hit and get hit and still keep your head.

dw300

I've never seen anyone get up quickly from a kick in the boll0cks .. jus' sayin' ..

Mike Healey

I spent quite a few months learning a branch of the Wu Shing school which develops the ability to imitate the ability to blend into almost any background, making you virtually invisible to most other people regardless of whether or not you are on a city street or country road.

It's called Cy Cling

The main school consists of going to the top of a steep hill, getting up a bit of speed and wu shing back down.

Don't know if that's of any help

natrix

Take up running, seriously a good runner can outrun most street thugs. If you get atatcked RLF

I've got the SAS security handbook http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Security-Ha ... 0434003069 (which is actually very good, unlike some of the more sensationalist offerings) and their basic advice is to forget about martial arts and take up running.

mrushton

Most of the self-defence experts will tell you that avoiding the confrontation is the best thing, running away is a good alternative and if you are going to have to fight get in first and don't fanny about. This idea that you will be some kick-boxer/ninja warrior is bollocks (unless you are a kick-boxer ninja).

Tom Butcher

Garry H wrote:

That video is awful and would be exactly the kind of thing that I would advise people not to do. It looks like pseudo combat. The people doing the attacking moves look like people who are shi*e at karate. It's far too "stylistic".

I take your point but I'm not sure the video is awful - it's just showing people learning technique in a slow and structured way. You just have to look for a school that does progress things so you have some chance of applying them in a pressure situation should the need ever arise. The other point is traditional martial arts are not purely about learning to fight in 12 months and shouldn't be judged as such - if you are going to keep at something for years and years then what seems unnecessarily complicated at first might become welcome depth to the art as your progress - depends what people are looking for.

That said I think most traditional stuff is effective if you stick with it. My father in law was a student of traditional martial arts from way back - and if I say mainly aikido some of you might laugh - but he worked the doors of clubs in small mining towns in the 70s and by all accounts could certainly apply what he knew in a real situation. I'm talking about proper old fashioned aikido from the early days of it coming into the UK. He is a fairly down to earth character - worked as an agricultural labourer by day - he isn't someone to ponce about doing pointless exercises just because they are traditional - but he'd still demonstrate stuff in a slow way just as a way of teaching - getting correct technique. When I used to do a bit we'd do some practice and I remember if he grabbed you and stuck you in a lock you weren't going anywhere - I wasn't playing along with it for show - it worked - and he'd have thrown a couple of strikes in along the way too.

dynamicbrick

Run away.

I worked the door at a large meat-market nightclub for years, and have seen obvious martial arts experts get a thorough kicking at the hands of 8st weaklings, and I've seen 18st pikeys wade into a dozen lads and come out on top - The basic truth of street brawling is that if someone is trying to start a fight with you they're either; a) very confident, b) very drunk, or c) very hard - none of which is something you want to be scrapping with in the first place.

All the martial arts in the world won't help when 16st of pissed meathead comes wading in with haymakers - he only needs connect with you once and suddenly it's last Wednesday and yes I'd love another slice of cake Vicar (I speak from experience).

Other than that, the only other basic rule is stay on your feet. Over the years I've noticed that most fights seem to fizzle out almost immediately if the recipient of random casual violence doesn't go down in the first 30 seconds. Most Eleven O'Clock Brunos are only capable of sustained aggression for very short bursts and become oddly territorial; returning to a set point over and over. Just back away, keep your trap shut, and let his girlfriend/mates/mum/whoever talk him out of it. You do get the upper hand on him and suddenly you'll need to cope with his mates, his missus, uncle Tom and all.

mrc1

+1to all the earlier comments about running away but if that fails then a massive +1to the comment about kicking in the nuts - then running off.

It really gets my back up when so called self defence experts attempt to teach pointlessly elaborate tactics to defeat a would be mugger or attacker. In reality if someone jumps you, then the last thing you'll be doing is some disarming routine or wrist lock - confusion, panic and adrenaline will all kick in and you'll forget everything (watch the number of white collar boxing matches that end up looking like playground brawls as the fighters forget everything they have learnt). It's also one thing demonstrating a technique against a willing partner, but a whole different ball game when they are properly resisting/trying to attack you.

On a different note though I can't recommend taking up some form of combat training enough as it is incredibly good fun, excellent for fitness and depending on what you do, will teach you some useful skills. I boxed as an amateur as a lad and now go to MMA (a mix of wrestling, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and Judo) and Kickboxing classes several nights a week and love it. One thing this teaches you is that the more you learn, the less you actually know, so you quickly learn not to be overconfident. I regularly get submitted by smaller guys and have had the sh*t kicked out of me by ladies that look like unassuming house wifes... For this reason I'd definitely recommend doing some light sparring as it will make you realise what happens when you get punched/kicked/choked.

markos1963

One the subject of 'kicking in the balls' it very rarely succeeds. We did an experiment at our judo club and the assailants were in general unable to get their foot near enough. Far better to go for a grab and twist, hard and fast without any pity or concern for your opponent.

mingmong

Just watch Rocky a few times.

contadorbeef

Take a look at 'Goshinkwai' it's a total body defense style, though there aren't many places to go outside of Wales & London.

Garry H

markos1963 wrote:

One the subject of 'kicking in the balls' it very rarely succeeds. We did an experiment at our judo club and the assailants were in general unable to get their foot near enough. Far better to go for a grab and twist, hard and fast without any pity or concern for your opponent.

No surprises there then; Judoka prefer grappling to trying to kick someone It's a good point though, trying to kick someone in the balls is harder than it looks, especially if your training partner knows what you're actually trying to do!!

Garry H

Tom Butcher wrote:

I take your point but I'm not sure the video is awful - it's just showing people learning technique in a slow and structured way. You just have to look for a school that does progress things so you have some chance of applying them in a pressure situation should the need ever arise. The other point is traditional martial arts are not purely about learning to fight in 12 months and shouldn't be judged as such - if you are going to keep at something for years and years then what seems unnecessarily complicated at first might become welcome depth to the art as your progress - depends what people are looking for.

That said I think most traditional stuff is effective if you stick with it. My father in law was a student of traditional martial arts from way back - and if I say mainly aikido some of you might laugh - but he worked the doors of clubs in small mining towns in the 70s and by all accounts could certainly apply what he knew in a real situation. I'm talking about proper old fashioned aikido from the early days of it coming into the UK. He is a fairly down to earth character - worked as an agricultural labourer by day - he isn't someone to ponce about doing pointless exercises just because they are traditional - but he'd still demonstrate stuff in a slow way just as a way of teaching - getting correct technique. When I used to do a bit we'd do some practice and I remember if he grabbed you and stuck you in a lock you weren't going anywhere - I wasn't playing along with it for show - it worked - and he'd have thrown a couple of strikes in along the way too.

I suspct that your father in law would have been quite handy, regardless of what he trained in. That's usually the case.

There's nothing wrong with the techniques in the video or in "traditional" martial arts in general (apart from the overly-flamboyant ones), it's the way that they train them. They very rarely venture outside their own areas.

dmclite-3.0

I had a bloke start on me years ago after a club night and thought I'd be clever and use a technique one of the lads in my unit had been taught. He taught me that if someone is raring up for a fight, either defuse it if you can or if it seems ineviatable, wade in yourself. You have to keep your head up and be confident. I have also used the beank/credit card in defence and this will deter most people. If you have time put your credit card in your leading hand and hold it tight with about 4-6mm sticking out of your grip and swipe it down as hard as you can on his head or face, this will hurt, stun but not cut him and is very effective. i follow this with a good shoulder backed punch to the stomach to try and wind severely and then I'm on my toes. keep it simple, fas and aggressive and get out ASAP.

Above all the running/defusing is the best option but unfortunately sometimes you will be bcaked into a corner and do something.

oldhairylegs

markos1963 wrote:

......Far better to go for a grab and twist, hard and fast without any pity or concern for your opponent.

What he said.

Grab, squeeze and twist those gonads as though your life depends on it and don't let go until you are ready to leg it.

Going for a kick in the gonads is risky as you may get your leg grabbed and end up on your arse.

mrc1

oldhairylegs wrote:

markos1963 wrote:

......Far better to go for a grab and twist, hard and fast without any pity or concern for your opponent.

What he said.

Grab, squeeze and twist those gonads as though your life depends on it and don't let go until you are ready to leg it.

Going for a kick in the gonads is risky as you may get your leg grabbed and end up on your ars*.

Whereas grabbing their nuts means you have to get extremely close to them and risk being grabbed, punched, choked etc etc. Goes to show the futility of fighting - just run.

MattC59

If you can't diffuse the situation or get away, and absolutely have to fight, then go for the shock and awe approach. Go in as hard and fast as you can with everything you've got. Then get out as quickly as possible.

Some years ago, four lads tried to mug me. there was a wall to my left two guys in front, one to my right and one behind. The threats started, so rather than hit the guy who was doing all the talking, I hit the guy to my right as hard as I could, square on the nose. He wasn't expecting it and went down like a sack of sh*t, leaving me a gap to make my escape. One punch, and I'd put several meters between me and them, enough to get into a more public place.

redjeepǃ

MattC59 wrote:

If you can't diffuse the situation or get away, and absolutely have to fight, then go for the shock and awe approach. Go in as hard and fast as you can with everything you've got. Then get out as quickly as possible.

This is pretty much at the core of Krav Maga. Go in as hard as you can as early as you can, and then run away.

Most techniques involve a kick, punch or slap to the bo!!ox, followed up with a few general punches or kicks.

ben@31

pinarello001 wrote:

If I did it now, it would be kickboxing. I did some sparring for a little while with a friend of mine (who is now doing his Purple in a certain style of Kung Fu). 1 minute of combinations in intervals and your fooked, big time. I did not realise how fit you have to be to box or kick box. You also learn to hit and get hit and still keep your head.

I knew some guys who do boxing. They all said the same as you, how it requires a surprising amount of cardio fitness. One guy said, boxing was that knackering, it hurt less being punched in the face than keeping his arms up.

Another thing they said was the invention of boxing gloves has changed the game. In real life you would break your hand by repeated punches to their skull. For this reason old bare knuckle boxing used to be just body shots. Some say boxing gloves should be banned as they are the root cause of brain damage in the sport.

Garry H

ben@31 wrote:

Another thing they said was the invention of boxing gloves has changed the game. In real life you would break your hand by repeated punches to their skull. For this reason old bare knuckle boxing used to be just body shots. Some say boxing gloves should be banned as they are the root cause of brain damage in the sport.

A very good point. Sunds a bit counter-intuitive,but bare knuckles would be less likey to cause death. Gloves protect the puncher,not the punched.