Advice needed from experienced bikers

appy

lol not at all Im a Ghost man through and through. Im just not a brand snob (I have a Saracen myst pro) and know a good bike when I see one regardless of the name on it. I have ridden them both (owned the fs) and having had a lot of bikes i think ive a good base to compare them to. Id also say one of the most important things about which ever you choose is being able to go and sit on one. What looks great on paper might not suit you at all in the flesh.

If you can afford a 456 carbon Id get one of those but I dont think your budget will stretch to it.

Did you you know what i meant about people using the cycle scheme to get money hence some great "used" bikes out there? People get the cycle scheme voucher and use it as a way of getting cash. and just sell the bike straight away. Boardmans seem to be one of the most common ones for that as the Halfords cycle scheme is a popular one.

newbie_biker

appy wrote:

lol not at all Im a Ghost man through and through. Im just not a brand snob (I have a Saracen myst pro) and know a good bike when I see one regardless of the name on it. I have ridden them both (owned the fs) and having had a lot of bikes i think ive a good base to compare them to. Id also say one of the most important things about which ever you choose is being able to go and sit on one. What looks great on paper might not suit you at all in the flesh.

If you can afford a 456 carbon Id get one of those but I dont think your budget will stretch to it.

Did you you know what i meant about people using the cycle scheme to get money hence some great "used" bikes out there? People get the cycle scheme voucher and use it as a way of getting cash. and just sell the bike straight away. Boardmans seem to be one of the most common ones for that as the Halfords cycle scheme is a popular one.

I remember when I was younger Appy, Claud Butlers and Saracens were the bikes that your friends would see and be like "Wow you got a _____ bike".

I'm not a brand snob either but even though I've been riding bikes since I was 7 I've never really ventured deep into bike parts until now, some of the names I heard when I started researching the components of a new bike were XT, Diamondback, Suntour, Norco, Rock Shox, Cannondale, Avid and so on. Those names have appeared a lot the past few days. The last bike I had was full suspension with all deore kit and lasted me 10+ years, I hardly changed anything on it and the next bike I buy I want it to be hassle free as well so I'm guessing best thing to do is go with a manufacturer/brand that has been in the game a while.

Being a bit of a F1 enthusiast I have to say the sound of a carbon fibre bike is very intriguing lol.

newbie_biker

Also guys, is there any reading material you would recommend to someone like me who was hoping to learn about building a bike in the near future?

paulneenan76

Deffo recommend On One but you'll struggle to get a fully built carbon 456 within your budget unless you go used. They dropped the price of the frame today down by £200 to £299 (they do this every now again with their crazy but bargainius pricing regime) but even then, and even if you new what you wanted/needed for components and finishing kit, and built it yourself, I think your more likely to spend £1500. Again you could go 2nd hand on the build but it will be a steep and possibly costly mistake ridden learning curve. This could put you off which is never good.

Another thought would be to head to your local LBS? if you're in Luton then try Pedalworks in Dunstable, they are well respected and come highly recommended. I ride with a guy who just got a great deal on a nice Whyte (in your price range) from them and used them for servicing previously. They also run a couple of group rides a week so might be a good chance for you to broaden skills and meet new like minded people.

Paul

newbie_biker

paulneenan76 wrote:

Another thought would be to head to your local LBS? if you're in Luton then try Pedalworks in Dunstable, they are well respected and come highly recommended. I ride with a guy who just got a great deal on a nice Whyte (in your price range) from them and used them for servicing previously. They also run a couple of group rides a week so might be a good chance for you to broaden skills and meet new like minded people.
Paul

That sounds awesome, especially the group ride activity. Appreciate the info Paul, will definitely check them out.

The Rookie

I struggle to see peace of mind from buying new and also wanting to build your own bike, if you can build you can maintain!

There is the Rockrider XC rep which is carbon framed and fairly well specced for £900 http://www.decathlon.co.uk/rockrider-8- ... 68896.html

You could build a Carbon 456 within your budget by buying a used donor bike with suitable components to cover most the parts you need just leaving a few extra bits to finish off.....

alfablue

Have you considered a Merlin Malt 4? SLX groupset (which is great! No need for better), good reliable shop, and under £640!

Self-building is never likely to be cheaper unless you're using secondhand components; there are much higher import duties on components rather than complete bikes, for one thing. An SLX groupset alone would cost £400. I would suggest you buy a new or s/h bike and learn to maintain your bike using resources like the Park Tool web site, build up a collection of tools, learn stuff like how headsets and bottom brackets fit/work, and then you will be ready to build a bike.

newbie_biker

The Beginner wrote:

I struggle to see peace of mind from buying new and also wanting to build your own bike, if you can build you can maintain!

alfablue wrote:

Self-building is never likely to be cheaper unless you're using secondhand components; there are much higher import duties on components rather than complete bikes, for one thing.

If you go back through the thread I haven't said that my final decision was to build a bike, I stated it was an option. I appreciate everyones help on here really I do, but when people start trailing off into different areas everyone seems to start losing the objective of this thread. After which there is a possiblity of debates starting.

Many thanks.

alfablue

Steady on Newbie

I (and others) are trying to help. I spent a few minutes to offer my tuppenceworth on the issues raised in the thread. To be honest, this thread isn't my major priority for the day, but I'm glad you appreciated my help and suggestions! I will be looking forward to helping you further in the future with your other URGENT threads :roll:

newbie_biker

alfablue wrote:

Steady on Newbie

I (and others) are trying to help. I spent a few minutes to offer my tuppenceworth on the issues raised in the thread. To be honest, this thread isn't my major priority for the day, but I'm glad you appreciated my help and suggestions! I will be looking forward to helping you further in the future with your other URGENT threads :roll:

My apologies if I came off as being a bit hot headed, that wasn't my intention at all. I know you are trying to help and there isn't is any need for me to be rude to you, I was just trying to set things straight.

No hard feelings I hope.

alfablue

newbie_biker wrote:

alfablue wrote:

Steady on Newbie

I (and others) are trying to help. I spent a few minutes to offer my tuppenceworth on the issues raised in the thread. To be honest, this thread isn't my major priority for the day, but I'm glad you appreciated my help and suggestions! I will be looking forward to helping you further in the future with your other URGENT threads :roll:

My apologies if I came off as being a bit hot headed, that wasn't my intention at all. I know you are trying to help and there isn't is any need for me to be rude to you, I was just trying to set things straight.

No hard feelings I hope.

no worries

The Rookie

newbie_biker wrote:

The Beginner wrote:

I struggle to see peace of mind from buying new and also wanting to build your own bike, if you can build you can maintain!

If you go back through the thread I haven't said that my final decision was to build a bike

I know but the relevant fact here is that you are thinking about it......

Buy used parts sensibly and you can buid a bike very cheaply, my wifes bike had new frame and forks and headset, the rest came from a single (used but in good condition) donor bike, after selling the bits I didn't need I put it together for £55.

newbie_biker

The Beginner wrote:

Buy used parts sensibly and you can buid a bike very cheaply, my wifes bike had new frame and forks and headset, the rest came from a single (used but in good condition) donor bike, after selling the bits I didn't need I put it together for £55.

Buying used parts sensibly would be great if I knew what to set the benchmark against or what it is I'm looking for? eg. I was considering a on one 456 carbon frame but how do I know I'll be satisfied with the finished product? I can't just throw money at it and 'hope' that it comes out as something I like. Also, scraping the parts together could take a long time.... for someone in my position there are so many elements in the equation I have to take into consideration.

If there is a good book or other resource which can help in understanding bike building then let me know.

The Rookie

Simplest way is to buy a good used Donor bike with all the main bits you want, you'll nearly always need a new seatpost, clamp and front mech, cables and sometimes hoses, other than that everything else will fit with just a small amount of care in buyiong the donor. It can even make sense to buy a brand new bike with the right bits on as a donor if you get a sales one from Paulscycles or similar.

Bike building, go to the parktoools website and look at how to do all the jobs, most of it is common sense, none of my bikes was bought whole, in fact none of the family's current bikes (8 in total) was.

newbie_biker

I have a couple of questions about forks, and no that's not the kind that keeps your knife company.

1) What is the purpose of a damper and fork lock out?

2) What is a pre load setting?

bartimaeus

newbie_biker wrote:

I have a couple of questions about forks, and no that's not the kind that keeps your knife company.

1) What is the purpose of a damper and fork lock out?

2) What is a pre load setting?

A damper manages the speed of the spring rebound - when it extends back to full travel after being compressed. without a damper your fork is, as people on here often say. "a pogo stick"... land a drop and instead of sucking up the impact the fork will bounce you. So get a fork with a damper. As forks get more expensive they typically are lighter and have better damping.

Lockout 'locks' the fork making it almost rigid - useful on the road, possibly, but IMHO overrated unless you commute on your MTB - and remote lockout is even less necessary. The lockout won't make the fork totally rigid, and many come with a blow-off that 'unlocks' the fork if you hit something hard enough. I don't even have the lockout attached to my Avalanche - the circlip to keep it on got bent and I've not been bothered to replace it.

Preload is a dial that allows you to set the 'sag' on a coil fork. Basically it is just a screw which compresses the spring a bit making it 'firmer'... [EDIT: apparently not - just checked and the spring rate will be linear (Hooke's Law) so it just changes the ride-height] your basic 'sag' is determined by the physical spring (soft/medium/hard) and then the pre-load gives you a very small measure of adjustability. Air forks are adjusted by changing the air pressure so they don't have a 'preload' dial.

cooldad

Good explanation, and I'm glad someone agrees with me about lockout.

bennett_346

I find lockout useful for standing climbs on roads (i ride to my local forest). Virtually useless if you only ever sit for climbs. But ff its there and makes it feel easier, why not use it?

I wouldn't miss it awfully if it wasn't there and certainly wouldn't not buy a bike or fork because it didn't have it, though.

bartimaeus

cooldad wrote:

Good explanation, and I'm glad someone agrees with me about lockout.

Apparently not quite good enough... apparently 'firmer' is an illusion as the spring-rate is unchanged, so it's just the 'sag'/ride height that is altered.

newbie_biker

Bartimaeus wrote:

cooldad wrote:

Good explanation, and I'm glad someone agrees with me about lockout.

Apparently not quite good enough... apparently 'firmer' is an illusion as the spring-rate is unchanged, so it's just the 'sag'/ride height that is altered.

Wouldn't that mean that suspension on a fork is just a 'gimmick' and it's best just to stick with something completely rigid?

And whilst we're talking about gimmicks, when picking out a new bike what are the latest gimmicks on bikes that I should try and avoid and not get distracted by? eg. I got quite drawn into this whole XT thing but then Cooldad explained it's just a farce and kind of overrated. The lighter the stuff gets the quicker it wears out compared to the heavy duty like deore components, which makes a whole bunch of sense.

70\ʹspenguin

I forget to put my lock on most of the time. I do, however, find it handy on long climbs (when i remember to engage it).

I always think of the damper like the shock absorber on the car if that helps. Its pretty much the same thing principally.

bennett_346

newbie_biker wrote:

Bartimaeus wrote:

cooldad wrote:

Good explanation, and I'm glad someone agrees with me about lockout.

Apparently not quite good enough... apparently 'firmer' is an illusion as the spring-rate is unchanged, so it's just the 'sag'/ride height that is altered.

Wouldn't that mean that suspension on a fork is just a 'gimmick' and it's best just to stick with something completely rigid?

And whilst we're talking about gimmicks, when picking out a new bike what are the latest gimmicks on bikes that I should try and avoid and not get distracted by? eg. I got quite drawn into this whole XT thing but then Cooldad explained it's just a farce and kind of overrated. The lighter the stuff gets the quicker it wears out compared to the heavy duty like deore components, which makes a whole bunch of sense.

Err, what?

70\ʹspenguin

newbie_biker wrote:

Bartimaeus wrote:

cooldad wrote:

Good explanation, and I'm glad someone agrees with me about lockout.

Apparently not quite good enough... apparently 'firmer' is an illusion as the spring-rate is unchanged, so it's just the 'sag'/ride height that is altered.

Wouldn't that mean that suspension on a fork is just a 'gimmick' and it's best just to stick with something completely rigid?

And whilst we're talking about gimmicks, when picking out a new bike what are the latest gimmicks on bikes that I should try and avoid and not get distracted by? eg. I got quite drawn into this whole XT thing but then Cooldad explained it's just a farce and kind of overrated. The lighter the stuff gets the quicker it wears out compared to the heavy duty like deore components, which makes a whole bunch of sense.

Suspension is only a gimmik when its cheap rubbish! A good damped fork will hold your tyre against the ground and keep you stable and firm. The damper will react to high speeds in the same way a car shock does and at low speed to soak up the big hits. Riding rigid on a carbon fork can be as comfy as a cheap suss fork, if not comfier, but having a nice plush fork is like chalk and cheese!

As for gimmicks in general? Well anything outside of the basic requirements for a rudementary bike could be considered a gimmick. At your pricepoint there arent that many gimmicks per se.

The Rookie

You wouldn't drive a car without shock absorbers, so why ride a bike, you wouldn't compete in a WRC even on 'built to a price' standard shock absorbers you get the expensive stuff.

Forks range from cheap and nasty marketing gimmics (like the stuff on £100 supermarket bikes - they really would be a better bike without) to ruddy expensive stuff which is built to fine tolerances.

Lockout is useful on the cheap 'just about good enough' stuff as it makes them better on road and then unlocked just about better than rigid (more so for less skilled riders who need more help) off. The better the fork the less the benefit of lockout even on road or steep fireroad climbs, for example my forks have a 'floodgate' function so they are pretty stiff against pedaling bob yet fairly absorbant to gnarly trail surfaces, so no (or at least less) need for a lockout.

bennett_346

The Beginner wrote:

You wouldn't drive a car without shock absorbers, so why ride a bike, you wouldn't compete in a WRC even on 'built to a price' standard shock absorbers you get the expensive stuff.

Forks range from cheap and nasty marketing gimmics (like the stuff on £100 supermarket bikes - they really would be a better bike without) to ruddy expensive stuff which is built to fine tolerances.

Lockout is useful on the cheap 'just about good enough' stuff as it makes them better on road and then unlocked just about better than rigid (more so for less skilled riders who need more help) off. The better the fork the less the benefit of lockout even on road or steep fireroad climbs, for example my forks have a 'floodgate' function so they are pretty stiff against pedaling bob yet fairly absorbant to gnarly trail surfaces, so no (or at least less) need for a lockout.

Thing is floodgate is always going to be a compromise. A lockout means you can have a fork set up perfectly for descending then turn the lockout on and have it perfect for climbing roads. The lockout on my revs rarely gets used but since nothing is lost through its addition it may as well have it.

The Rookie

As a weight weenie, a lockout adds weight, it also sometimes means adjustable compression damping is lost from the fork spec, but as long as the OP chooses to have it for the right reasons, than that's fine, having it because 'it sounds good' isn't.

bartimaeus

And re: spring rate and preload...

If a soft spring moves 20mm for a given force then it moves 40mm for twice the force. A harder spring might move 15mm for the same initial force and 30mm for twice the force. The preload will not change these numbers.

A rigid fork will move 0mm whatever force you apply, until it fails and you kill yourself.

bennett_346

On RS forks i don't think it does add weight since it just relies on the compression adjust locking off the oil flow. Maybe 20 or so grams. Though i agree if it means sacrificing compression adjust it is a downgrade.

My revs have both anyway plus floodgate so nothing lost there.

70\ʹspenguin

You can lock out the fork with an adjuster. You can also adjust the forks compression when locked providing you have an adjustable floodgate. If you run a locked fork or one heavily damped you can set a low threshold for your floodgate and have something that eliminates some of the pedal bob but will react really nicely to the bumpier stuff. Only problem is that after a while you just forget and keep the whole thing unlocked.

appy

I think for the purpose of your search ignore if it has lock out or not. If it hasnt got it you dont need it and if it has it then ... well it has it lol
In my opinion you only need lock out on longer travel all mountain type rigs