Linda McCartney team doping investigation

bompington

Trev The Rev wrote:

...stuff...

At first I thought Trev might be Bernie reincarnated, then I decided probably not, as at least Bernie tended to be well-informed and logical.
Now I'm not so sure.

ddraver

I wondered if he might be Rundfahrt he used to bang this drum a lot. The Classic Rundfahrt moment just before he left was the "I don't care about your real facts, I'm keeping my opinions no matter what you say"

A sentence that would describe Trev very well!

symo

Yeah trev, read the Kimmage interview; what it didn't say is WAH I didn't get undisputed access to the cyclists whenever it was convenient for me, which is his main point of contention. Can you imagine Hoy, Ennis or any other athlete allowing it??? I like Kimmage to the point of contributing £10 to the defence fund, however this is tenuous linking at it's best.

If Brailsford got a firm no from everyone he interviewed what is he going to do, hand it over to every internet pundit for their half baked opinions? If those he found when reinterviewed had a problem with the more probing questions from Dr Peters then got rid of them whats the problem; oh wait Kimmage doesn't have unrestricted access.

Lets face it the only people with unrestricted access are UKADA and they have been quiet on Brailsford and the whole UK cycling setup. Wiggins and Cavendish have been fairly public on twitter etc when being woken/interupted by the tester.

I'll be disappointed if one of them is found to have used enhancements, but what I am not prepared to do is listen to people say "well he must be on drugs because I say so". Show me the evidence and witness testimony, but not opinions. You should get over the asylum, they love opinions over there.

Richmond Racer

Kimmage: 'That is a question that has not actually been addressed yet: who made the decision to hire Geert Leinders? What happened to the principles that we were given in 2009'

See, here is where Kimmage is either telling utter porkies OR he doesnt read what other people write because it might force him to question his own so adament a position.

Jul 2012, interview by Lionel Birnie with Brailsford during the Tour, for CycleSport
http://www.cyclesportmag.com/news-and-c ... ent-clean/

2-3 Sundays ago, interview by David Walsh (Kimmage's own close colleague and friend) with Brailsford in Sunday Times. Walsh's questioning of Brailsford on Leinders took up a good 1/3rd of the interview. Walsh, who 's questioned Brailsford and Sky over the months in both print and on Twitter, stated in the interview that he's inclined to believe Wiggins is clean. He also put out on Twitter that he believes Brailsford to be committed to clean cycling. Unless, Trev, you believe Walsh to be a stooge?


I wrote to Kimmage and Matt Seaton (hey, its not just Trev who can do that kind of thing!) and asked why no questions re other named teams - teams who've been successful and have riders and staff with questionable histories. Kimmage's response was 'because they dont say they're anti-doping and transparent when they're not'. I then asked whether those teams staying silent meant that they shouldnt be questioned. His response was 'how do you know I havent questioned them or written about them'. I then asked if he could point me in the direction of any such articles he's written so that I could read them. His response was 'you should read more'. I then asked again, politely, whether he could send me to any links so that I could do that.' No further response. A few minutes later he announced to his Twitter followers that he's was going offline again.


Personal with Kimmage? What do you think?

Trev The Rev

Richmond Racer wrote:

Personal with Kimmage? What do you think?

Very possible, but seeing as Kimmage was very much a lone voice for decades and has now been justified by recent events, I'm prepared to listen to what he says. He might well know rather more than he is able to say.

Richmond Racer

Same can be said of Walsh of course, who's actually sat down 1-2-1 with Brailsford for an afternoon.

And no, Trev, Kimmage was not a lone voice for decades. Willy Voet wrote his book after the Festina affair. Whittle wrote Bad Blood. Walsh was questioning Armstrong from '99 onwards, and his articles were published, as were LA Confidential and From Lance to Landis. Same for Pierre Ballester and other journalists.

Right from the start of his comeback, the story goes that Armstrong's performance in the 99 Tour was so obviously and outrageously assisted, that hacks watching in the Press Room just laughed out loud.

Enough of the martyring of Kimmage. In its own way, this is just a slight variation of putting Armstrong on a pedestal so that he couldnt be questioned.

Trev The Rev

Richmond Racer wrote:

Same can be said of Walsh of course, who's actually sat down 1-2-1 with Brailsford for an afternoon.

And no, Trev, Kimmage was not a lone voice for decades. Willy Voet wrote his book after the Festina affair. Whittle wrote Bad Blood. Walsh was questioning Armstrong from '99 onwards, and his articles were published, as were LA Confidential and From Lance to Landis. Same for Pierre Ballester and other journalists.

Right from the start of his comeback, the story goes that Armstrong's performance in the 99 Tour was so obviously and outrageously assisted, that hacks watching in the Press Room just laughed out loud.

Enough of the martyring of Kimmage. In its own way, this is just a slight variation of putting Armstrong on a pedestal so that he couldnt be questioned.

I read all those books when they came out, Kimmage was one of very few who spoke out and he was there from the start. You can't re write history, go back in time only a few months. You don't need to look far back and Kimmage was one of very few prepared to stand up to the likes of Armstrong and his bitches.

Richmond Racer

right, Trev, so we're agreed - he wasnt a lone voice

Trev The Rev

Richmond Racer wrote:

right, Trev, so we're agreed - he wasnt a lone voice

Kimmage was alone in 1990 when he published Rough Ride.

Richmond Racer

Trev The Rev wrote:

Richmond Racer wrote:

right, Trev, so we're agreed - he wasnt a lone voice

Kimmage was alone in 1990 when he published Rough Ride.

Actually Freddy Maertens autobio Niet Van Horen Zeggen (translated as Not From Hearsay) published '89, pretty much confirmed what Kimmage said a year later in Rough Ride.

But let's leave it here, eh. This is starting to get tedious even for me.

Trev The Rev

Richmond Racer wrote:

Trev The Rev wrote:

Richmond Racer wrote:

right, Trev, so we're agreed - he wasnt a lone voice

Kimmage was alone in 1990 when he published Rough Ride.

Actually Freddy Maertens autobio Niet Van Horen Zeggen (translated as Not From Hearsay) published '89, pretty much confirmed what Kimmage said a year later in Rough Ride.

But let's leave it here, eh. This is starting to get tedious even for me.

I find the fact so many Tour winners prove to be cheats tedious.

derbygrimpeur

Trev The Rev wrote:

ddraver wrote:

Ohh Ohh tell us!

Hi Trevor,




Thanks for your email I will try and respond after the Tour as you can imagine I have my hands full right now.

Cheers Dave


Sent from my iPhone

On 22 Jul 2010, at 11:58,

Hi Trevor,


A few comments as promised below.


These are for your eyes only and please do not publish them - you asked me a question and I have answered them giving my personal opinion to you in the belief that they are not for public consumption - I hope you can respect this please.


Cheers
Dave


Dave Brailsford CBE
Performance Director
British Cycling

didn't you have an earlier e-mail exchange with him from which you said he "painstakingly answered all my questions and certainly convinced me none of the GB Olympic cyclists were manipulating their blood values by illegal means."?

Still of the same opinion?

Trev The Rev

derbygrimpeur wrote:

didn't you have an earlier e-mail exchange with him from which you said he "painstakingly answered all my questions and certainly convinced me none of the GB Olympic cyclists were manipulating their blood values by illegal means."?

Still of the same opinion?

Sadly no. At the time and as an isolated incident I was convinced but in the light of more recent events I am not sure.

dave_1

How many eye witnesses are there? My recollection is that a mcartney ds other than yates was on the 2000 Giro and has been subject to serious accusations by ex pro in clinic. He was manager of another ex pro in the uk also querief

Richmond Racer

Dave_1 wrote:

How many eye witnesses are there? My recollection is that a mcartney ds other than yates was on the 2000 Giro and has been subject to serious accusations by ex pro in clinic. He was manager of another ex pro in the uk also querief

Neil Stephens?

dave_1

Richmond Racer wrote:

Dave_1 wrote:

How many eye witnesses are there? My recollection is that a mcartney ds other than yates was on the 2000 Giro and has been subject to serious accusations by ex pro in clinic. He was manager of another ex pro in the uk also querief

n


Neil Stephens?

No. Another.

Richmond Racer

Dave_1 wrote:

Richmond Racer wrote:

Dave_1 wrote:

How many eye witnesses are there? My recollection is that a mcartney ds other than yates was on the 2000 Giro and has been subject to serious accusations by ex pro in clinic. He was manager of another ex pro in the uk also querief

n


Neil Stephens?

No. Another.

Chris Lillywhite?

(I'll stop the guessing game after this)

Pross

Richmond Racer wrote:

Trev, can you also write to Wenger to ask him what the hell he's doing with Gervinho, and can he please swap him for a free ticket for me to see Kraftwerk.

Ta.

As Trev doesn't like football I took it on myself to ask instead the responses are as follows:-

Hi Pross,




Thanks for your email I will try and respond after the Champions League as you can imagine I have my hands full right now.

Cheers Arsene

Sent from my iPhone

On 4 December 2012, at 11:58,

Hi Pross,


A few comments as promised below.


These are for your eyes only and please do not publish them - you asked me a question and I have answered them giving my personal opinion to you in the belief that they are not for public consumption - I hope you can respect this please.


Cheers
Arsene

PS the Kraftwerk ticket will be sent out after Christmas once the transfer has been completed

Arsene Wenger
Manager
Arsenal Football Club

ddraver

Richmond Racer wrote:

Dave_1 wrote:

Richmond Racer wrote:

Dave_1 wrote:

How many eye witnesses are there? My recollection is that a mcartney ds other than yates was on the 2000 Giro and has been subject to serious accusations by ex pro in clinic. He was manager of another ex pro in the uk also querief

n


Neil Stephens?

No. Another.

Chris Lillywhite?

(I'll stop the guessing game after this)

The Blue Whale?

mididoctors

Sky have been described as the methodical reproduction of the effects of doping by alternate means

FransJacques

Richmond Racer wrote:

Whats this about believing Brailsford? Its the same account from everyone including Sutton and Wiggins. Trev, did you see the condition of Wiggins in the 2010 Tour? For him, he was lardy and simply not fit enough in the mountains. It was Tim Kerrison who set the entire training programme from Oct 2010 onwards, using your hated power meters etc. Sky farked up properly with Wiggins in their first season, and he farked up properly for the team and for himself. If you could be bothered to read the accounts in either On tour or My Time, he gives his account of what happened. Doesnt mean to say that you have to believe it, but at least you'd have more input. Or is that too reasonable to expect?

Hayles' haemocrit was 50.03% if my memory's correct?

Not taking anyone's side but Lance also wrote "accounts" in INATB and ESC which people tried to use one way or the other depending on whether they were detractors or supporters.

Truth is, it's fun to play Holmes on a forum but we're all outsiders all in the dark and while we can argue one way or the other, this *could* look different 5,6,7 years from now.

Hope not, hope it's all over. I love (and believe) the line the My Time when Wiggo writes (paraphrasing) "Lance & co trashed the office, split, and now we're left cleaning up the mess". By the "office" I assume he DIDN'T mean that Steve Carrell is not as entertaining as Gervais.

Richmond Racer

Fair point about individuals' accounts. No thanks tho for invoking the spectre of Lance and his deluded ghost Sally Jenkins *shudders*

Trev The Rev

mididoctors wrote:

Sky have been described as the methodical reproduction of the effects of doping by alternate means

Yes, good description, and we may well see in the future those 'alternative means' being made illegal. Under the rules is a substance which is performance enhancing but little known and not on the banned list illegal? Some legal methods are in my opinion just as unethical as banned methods. There are many lines which are very grey and hazy. It is not easy to work out what side of the line some are on.

r0bh

Trev The Rev wrote:

mididoctors wrote:

Sky have been described as the methodical reproduction of the effects of doping by alternate means

Yes, good description, and we may well see in the future those 'alternative means' being made illegal.

What they're going to ban power meters and coaches who actually understand physiology?

Trev The Rev

r0bh wrote:

Trev The Rev wrote:

mididoctors wrote:

Sky have been described as the methodical reproduction of the effects of doping by alternate means

Yes, good description, and we may well see in the future those 'alternative means' being made illegal.

What they're going to ban power meters and coaches who actually understand physiology?

No but we might see coaches & doctors who bend the rules or have bent the rules in the past getting banned. Why do you think Brailsford has had a clear out?

As for banning power meters, I do think they should be banned during time trials & road races as they give an unfair advantage in that they help riders who do not have the ability to pace themselves.

Gazzaputt

Trev The Rev wrote:

As for banning power meters, I do think they should be banned during time trials & road races as they give an unfair advantage in that they help riders who do not have the ability to pace themselves.

Eh?

You do have some strange thoughts.

Richmond Racer

Trev The Rev wrote:

r0bh wrote:

Trev The Rev wrote:

mididoctors wrote:

Sky have been described as the methodical reproduction of the effects of doping by alternate means

Yes, good description, and we may well see in the future those 'alternative means' being made illegal.

What they're going to ban power meters and coaches who actually understand physiology?

No but we might see coaches & doctors who bend the rules or have bent the rules in the past getting banned. Why do you think Brailsford has had a clear out?

As for banning power meters, I do think they should be banned during time trials & road races as they give an unfair advantage in that they help riders who do not have the ability to pace themselves.

In the Ever Strange World of Trev, the only coaches will be the ones that take the riders to and from races

Trev The Rev

Gazzaputt wrote:

Trev The Rev wrote:

As for banning power meters, I do think they should be banned during time trials & road races as they give an unfair advantage in that they help riders who do not have the ability to pace themselves.

Eh?

You do have some strange thoughts.

The ability to pace is a very important skill in cycling which is not really a skill or technique based sport. Using a power meter to pace during a time trial or in a break is relying on technology and removes the skill. It would be sad to see the art of pacing lost and made redundant.

derbygrimpeur

It has been mentioned before and it'd certainly add a bit of excitement as some riders would bonk, whereas now they can be very measured.

bompington

The ability to change gear is an important skill in cycling which is not really a skill or technique based sport. Using a modern derailleur to change during a time trial or in a break is relying on technology and removes the skill. It would be sad to see the art of manually lifting the chain onto a different cog lost and made redundant.