Training benefits of a Club Run

Setarkos

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

IOW - one can do quite a lot of training to improve threshold power without ever actually riding at threshold (or beyond).

I'm not disagreeing with you but how do you peak without L5/L4?

I used to try a maintain a high as possible FTP for the entire season - last year I planned to peaks. It means I'm not as good (my FTP is not as high) most of the year but during the peaks it's about 10% higher than the constant level I can maintain. Next year I will do a one-week alpine stage race and 10% in FTP more or less makes the difference between (roughly) Top150 and Top30...

Trev The Rev

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

I suspect people sometimes mistakenly equate training that improves threshold as only to mean training with hard aerobic intervals (and sometimes beyond, even though they may not realise it at the time). I'm not saying you are, but that's why I phrase my statement intentionally the way I have.

IOW - one can do quite a lot of training to improve threshold power without ever actually riding at threshold (or beyond).

Rowers use this approach effectively.

Alex_Simmons/RST

Setarkos wrote:

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

IOW - one can do quite a lot of training to improve threshold power without ever actually riding at threshold (or beyond).

I'm not disagreeing with you but how do you peak without L5/L4?

I used to try a maintain a high as possible FTP for the entire season - last year I planned to peaks. It means I'm not as good (my FTP is not as high) most of the year but during the peaks it's about 10% higher than the constant level I can maintain. Next year I will do a one-week alpine stage race and 10% in FTP more or less makes the difference between (roughly) Top150 and Top30...

10% variance in threshold power over a year/season is about normal from under-trained to peak.

As for peaking, well much depends on the nature of your goal event(s) and whether dedicated Level 5 and above work is warranted at all (many factors to consider with that). Level 4 isn't really peaking work, and is something one can do for several months if so desired.

Setarkos

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

10% variance in threshold power over a year/season is about normal from under-trained to peak.

I meant 10% difference from what I can constantly maintain April-August to peak if I periodise my training.

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

As for peaking, well much depends on the nature of your goal event(s) and whether dedicated Level 5 and above work is warranted at all (many factors to consider with that). Level 4 isn't really peaking work, and is something one can do for several months if so desired.

Last year I did a lot of L4 in Feb/Mar and involuntarily peaked after my training camp in late March without doing any L5 or above...

Trev The Rev

Involuntarily peaked?

mattshrops

Trev The Rev wrote:

Involuntarily peaked?

What- again? You said that had never happened to you before. :oops:

Alex_Simmons/RST

Setarkos wrote:

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

10% variance in threshold power over a year/season is about normal from under-trained to peak.

I meant 10% difference from what I can constantly maintain April-August to peak if I periodise my training.

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

As for peaking, well much depends on the nature of your goal event(s) and whether dedicated Level 5 and above work is warranted at all (many factors to consider with that). Level 4 isn't really peaking work, and is something one can do for several months if so desired.

Last year I did a lot of L4 in Feb/Mar and involuntarily peaked after my training camp in late March without doing any L5 or above...

Well that 10% sounds normal, which is what I was trying to say.

Your peak may have been brought about by a significant change in training workload due to the camp, but honestly, all one can do is speculate in general terms on a forum.

Trev The Rev

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

Setarkos wrote:

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

10% variance in threshold power over a year/season is about normal from under-trained to peak.

I meant 10% difference from what I can constantly maintain April-August to peak if I periodise my training.

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

As for peaking, well much depends on the nature of your goal event(s) and whether dedicated Level 5 and above work is warranted at all (many factors to consider with that). Level 4 isn't really peaking work, and is something one can do for several months if so desired.

Last year I did a lot of L4 in Feb/Mar and involuntarily peaked after my training camp in late March without doing any L5 or above...

Well that 10% sounds normal, which is what I was trying to say.

Your peak may have been brought about by a significant change in training workload due to the camp, but honestly, all one can do is speculate in general terms on a forum.

Isn't one of the reasons you use a power meter and analyse the data to make sure you don't peak involuntarily but peak when planned?

Setarkos

Trev The Rev wrote:

Isn't one of the reasons you use a power meter and analyse the data to make sure you don't peak involuntarily but peak when planned?

I think you mean preventing overtraining...

Peaking can be complicated and a powermeter can help controlling it but it also requires some experience how one responds to certain training stresses.

The only ways I can think of using a powermeter to control peaking is
a) to track the time you spend above threshold (although that can be done without a powermeter reasonably accurate, too)
b) aiming for a certain CTL for when you want to peak
c) tracking TSS/week for 2-3 weeks leading up to an event
But for all of them you need to have empirical values of how much L5 in how much time you require and at what CTL you achieve your best results (I know very successful cyclists who don't cope well with a CTL of more than 80-85 and others who maintain a CTL of 120 for several weeks) etc.

Herbsman

Trev The Rev wrote:

Isn't one of the reasons you use a power meter and analyse the data to make sure you don't peak involuntarily but peak when planned?

Regardless of whether or not one owns a power meter, sometimes life gets in the way of training plans. Life may sometimes involve doing more cycling than one had planned to do.

Trev The Rev

Herbsman wrote:

Trev The Rev wrote:

Isn't one of the reasons you use a power meter and analyse the data to make sure you don't peak involuntarily but peak when planned?

Regardless of whether or not one owns a power meter, sometimes life gets in the way of training plans. Life may sometimes involve doing more cycling than one had planned to do.

One of the real skills in training is knowing when to back off and do less. In my opinion power meter data is easily misinterpreted and some people back off when it is too late because they were fooled and led by the numbers.

That said you need to be brave to back off when you feel good and the numbers are showing improvement.

Herbsman

True, but if you end up going on a training camp in an exotic location are you going to ride for the enjoyment (but record it for later inspection) or are you going to to tell all your mates to ease up on every climb, then cut each ride short to avoid excessive TSS accumulation while your mates carry on and have fun in the sun?

Trev The Rev

Herbsman wrote:

True, but if you end up going on a training camp in an exotic location are you going to ride for the enjoyment (but record it for later inspection) or are you going to to tell all your mates to ease up on every climb, then cut each ride short to avoid excessive TSS accumulation while your mates carry on and have fun in the sun?

Depends on the importance of the event you are training for.

Herbsman

Of course

okgo

Of late I've been doing harder stuff on my own then treating the club training ride as a more steady effort. On my own I have done 3 hours at tempo (in a controlled place) to the extent that even 2 hours on the normal roads is hard to get right with traffic and stopping etc, but solo its still a lot closer to where I want it to be. Of late the club rides (which are not club runs by any stretch 60-80 miles 20 mph avg) I can never get close no matter how many turns I take on the front they end up being endurance rides in power terms.

The only time I have found them really beneficial is when you go out with people much faster than you, which is fine if your club has that level of riders, or when you go out two or three up, as opposed to 7/8.

rozzer32

hutchy_belfast wrote:

Yeh essentially I am stacking them one day to the next at the weekends. Can go pretty hard on the turbo which is a fluid crono, using intervals etc. A few times I've needed scraped off the floor afterwards but can only really manage an hour to an hour 10 then I lose the will/ start getting sore. I feel like I need more base work which I'm much better at outside. Thanks for the advice.

Get out on the club ride then :roll:

smidsy

hutchy_belfast wrote:

Too right, that wouldn't be hard. Not much point in using it as a recovery ride at the minute for me though, I'm not getting enough hard miles to needs one.

So get out on the cub ride and sit at the front and control the pace.

If the group needs to go slower you can always drop off the back and then do max efforts to catch back up.

If you are not doing enough why are you thinking the club run is no use?

The club run can be what you make it really. Attack the hills, drop off the back and put in a max effort, sit on the front and tow everyone else along etc etc.

Tom Dean

smidsy wrote:

So get out on the cub ride and sit at the front and control the pace.

If the group needs to go slower you can always drop off the back and then do max efforts to catch back up.

If you are not doing enough why are you thinking the club run is no use?

The club run can be what you make it really. Attack the hills, drop off the back and put in a max effort, sit on the front and tow everyone else along etc etc.

Can't agree with any of this, don't disrupt the group to suit yourself. If you don't want a social ride and you can't fit the club run in with your training, just train on your own.

ps 60 miles is not a recovery ride, however slow you go.

Herbsman

Ennit. Club rides are about cohesiveness, you should be riding together and looking out for eachother, not being annoying and antisocial.

fish156

Tom Dean wrote:

smidsy wrote:

So get out on the cub ride and sit at the front and control the pace.

If the group needs to go slower you can always drop off the back and then do max efforts to catch back up.

If you are not doing enough why are you thinking the club run is no use?

The club run can be what you make it really. Attack the hills, drop off the back and put in a max effort, sit on the front and tow everyone else along etc etc.

Can't agree with any of this, don't disrupt the group to suit yourself. ...

+1

mattshrops

A good club run will have an agreed target speed. Pretty annoying if someones trying to smash it all the time.
If you need more do an hour before(go hard) and an hour or two after. Enjoy the club run for what it is.
If you end up doing ~100 miles that should give you some training benefit

bigpikle

smidsy wrote:

hutchy_belfast wrote:

Too right, that wouldn't be hard. Not much point in using it as a recovery ride at the minute for me though, I'm not getting enough hard miles to needs one.

So get out on the cub ride and sit at the front and control the pace.

If the group needs to go slower you can always drop off the back and then do max efforts to catch back up.

If you are not doing enough why are you thinking the club run is no use?

The club run can be what you make it really. Attack the hills, drop off the back and put in a max effort, sit on the front and tow everyone else along etc etc.

Try this on our club runs and you'll be told where to get off in no uncertain terms!

If they have an agreed structure then either take part, do your own thing or find another club. Club runs vary in nature depending o the club but I find them good for getting used to long rides, but in terms of efficient training, they are pretty poor as much of the time is either going easy in the group or really hard up the hills. I find solo rides more effective but over winter these are great ways to be motivated.

Setarkos

mattshrops wrote:

A good club run will have an agreed target speed. Pretty annoying if someones trying to smash it all the time.
If you need more do an hour before(go hard) and an hour or two after. Enjoy the club run for what it is.
If you end up doing ~100 miles that should give you some training benefit

Rather an unnecessarily high cortisol level with little training benefit...

Got a decent IF of 0.75 on today's 5h club ride. Spent around 80-90% on the front though...

smidsy

As long as the group is not disrupted and noone is left behind then we have no problem with the actions of an individual at the back.

I take the points raised and my post is perhaps not well written but if the OP sits on the front and does all the work he can still get a decent ride out.

I accept that group rides should be cohesive (group) I suppose gives it away.

poynedexter

i rode with 3 different clubs in the last 2 weeks,with each having a different etiqutte or approach. today for example some riders would sprint to the 30mph signs from quite some way out. meanwhile the group would keep a steady pace. i find that unless you are at quite a high level, there is plenty of training benefit on a club run. also my own club has a range of runs depending on what you want to achieve.

also if we were on a climb and some were struggling it was common for the strong riders to drop back and push the weary. i tried this and it hurts the legs.

mattshrops

Setarkos wrote:

mattshrops wrote:

A good club run will have an agreed target speed. Pretty annoying if someones trying to smash it all the time.
If you need more do an hour before(go hard) and an hour or two after. Enjoy the club run for what it is.
If you end up doing ~100 miles that should give you some training benefit

Rather an unnecessarily high cortisol level with little training benefit...

Got a decent IF of 0.75 on today's 5h club ride. Spent around 80-90% on the front though...

Depends on what you're training for...
6hrs -95 miles- IF 0.77 Not sure what you're getting at....