Miss Ciclismo

whiteboytrash

Pross wrote:

whiteboytrash wrote:

Pross wrote:

sjmclean wrote:

Completely classless, distasteful

Yes, but to be fair I agree with WBT in this instance

Agreed though, I like admiring the female form as much as the next (heterosexual) man but this sort of thing died out in most places in the 70s. Even the Contractors I deal with stopped dishing out calendars of semi-dressed women sprawled over some construction related product about 20 years ago. It seems cycling and motorsport are the last bastions of this kind of thing.

Worth reading this article.

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/cycling/24554568

Also from a women's perspective turning up to a group ride with 25 men and 3 women is daunting.

When I was in Spain I really enjoyed riding with females. They generally climb a lot faster and was a lot of fun.

Also think if women trying to get into the sport and comes across this forum. Any newbie wants to learn as much as fast as possible. Not see a bunch of guys crassly objectifying their bodies.

Something to think about on the next group ride.

Not sure why you quoted me and then posted that, I'm agreeing with you :?

I know. This is a discussion. I'm adding more context.

Not everything should be an argument.

BenderRodriguez

whiteboytrash wrote:

Any newbie wants to learn as much as fast as possible. Not see a bunch of guys crassly objectifying their bodies.

Correct. They want men to discreetly objectify their bodies.

ddraver

Was in a Bar last weekend over here and they had the Miss World 2013 on. Surprised it still existed...

above_the_cows

ddraver wrote:

Was in a Bar last weekend over here and they had the Miss World 2013 on. Surprised it still existed...

Were you with Marianne?

Crankbrother

Yet another case of the internet getting their bibshorts in a knot on someone else's behalf ...

A group of males who are good at riding bikes have a competition to see who is the best amongst that years group ...

A group of women who are good looking have a competition to see who is the best amongst that years group ...

So which group are you going to call unacceptable?

BenderRodriguez

Pross wrote:

I like admiring the female form as much as the next (heterosexual) man but this sort of thing died out in most places in the 70s. Even the Contractors I deal with stopped dishing out calendars of semi-dressed women sprawled over some construction related product about 20 years ago.

To my mind the sea of porn that exists today, where women are often treated violently and at best given a face-full, is a far more blatant and damaging form of 'objectification' than any podium girl. Also, getting rid of women from adverts for construction material is not evidence that things have really changed for the better. Perhaps it was better when supposedly 'unreconstructed' attitudes towards women were mainstream and visible. Now everyone is supposed to be be 'PC' on the surface, whilst the darker sides of male sexuality is kept hidden but given free rein and pandered to by an unlimited supply of fantasy material.

salsiccia1

BenderRodriguez wrote:

Pross wrote:

I like admiring the female form as much as the next (heterosexual) man but this sort of thing died out in most places in the 70s. Even the Contractors I deal with stopped dishing out calendars of semi-dressed women sprawled over some construction related product about 20 years ago.

To my mind the sea of porn that exists today, where women are often treated violently and at best given a face-full, is a far more blatant and damaging form of 'objectification' than any podium girl. Also, getting rid of women from adverts for construction material is not evidence that things have really changed for the better. Perhaps it was better when supposedly 'unreconstructed' attitudes towards women were mainstream and visible. Now everyone is supposed to be be 'PC' on the surface, whilst the darker sides of male sexuality is kept hidden but given free rein and pandered to by an unlimited supply of fantasy material.

Despite being a new age man/feminist myself, I find myself agreeing with quite a lot of this.

ddraver

Above The Cows wrote:

ddraver wrote:

Was in a Bar last weekend over here and they had the Miss World 2013 on. Surprised it still existed...

Were you with Marianne?

Татьяна this time...

BenderRodriguez

Salsiccia1 wrote:

Despite being a new age man/feminist myself, I find myself agreeing with quite a lot of this.

Cheers. I think that what a lot of people need to do is to open their eyes to what is going on in the world and develop a sense of perspective, and to do so quickly!

Of course, it is a lot easier to instead get all worked up about something as innocent and trivial as a few beautiful women making the most of what nature has gifted them!

whiteboytrash

Crankbrother wrote:

Yet another case of the internet getting their bibshorts in a knot on someone else's behalf ...

A group of males who are good at riding bikes have a competition to see who is the best amongst that years group ...

A group of women who are good looking have a competition to see who is the best amongst that years group ...

So which group are you going to call unacceptable?

Neither I was talking about the promotion of the event and debase comments made in this thread.

Sure. If you grab your lot there are plenty of other internet sites that will allow you to get your fill. Why turn this otherwise excellent forum into a men-only locker room?





I

BenderRodriguez

whiteboytrash wrote:

Why turn this otherwise excellent forum into a men-only locker room?

Isn't this just a reflection of the fact that the vast majority of posters on here probably are male?

Similarly, there is a separate 'Women' sub-section in 'Road'. So far it has had just 38 topics posted.

I wonder if people log onto Mum's net or whatever as well and whine about it not being male orientated?

Crankbrother

whiteboytrash wrote:

Crankbrother wrote:

Yet another case of the internet getting their bibshorts in a knot on someone else's behalf ...

A group of males who are good at riding bikes have a competition to see who is the best amongst that years group ...

A group of women who are good looking have a competition to see who is the best amongst that years group ...

So which group are you going to call unacceptable?

Neither I was talking about the promotion of the event and debase comments made in this thread.

Sure. If you grab your lot there are plenty of other internet sites that will allow you to get your fill. Why turn this otherwise excellent forum into a men-only locker room?





I

I count only a single inappropriate remark (and a few jokes at the attending Pro's expense) ... Other than that it's some pictures of an event attended by members of the peleton ... So why the need to hide this from the eyes of women?

Not that I care about the health of this thread ... I'm neither here nor there about it ... Just can't be bothered with the pretend do gooders getting all excited about not a lot ...

* Also WBT, you may wish to consider being a bit less aggressive in the tone of your posts ... It's a common theme in the threads you've contributed to and dilutes the merit of what you have to say ... and I can see this heading down a similar path

whiteboytrash

BenderRodriguez wrote:

whiteboytrash wrote:

You raise some interesting points. I more referred to the way the event was portrayed on this forum. "Sitting on my face" comments do nothing to suggest this forum is open and welcome to all.

I agree, it made me cringe as well. :oops:

whiteboytrash wrote:

throw in Wiggins comments at the recent charity event and cycling is more prehistoric than 1970's football.

Can you give a link, or summarise what he said?

No. His comments are not worth the retina display I'm typing on. The less said the better.

ad_snow

whiteboytrash wrote:

BenderRodriguez wrote:

whiteboytrash wrote:

You raise some interesting points. I more referred to the way the event was portrayed on this forum. "Sitting on my face" comments do nothing to suggest this forum is open and welcome to all.

I agree, it made me cringe as well. :oops:

whiteboytrash wrote:

throw in Wiggins comments at the recent charity event and cycling is more prehistoric than 1970's football.

Can you give a link, or summarise what he said?

No. His comments are not worth the retina display I'm typing on. The less said the better.

Is this the thing about the guy having a posh voice? Can't believe you're offended over some words. Grow up.

Pross

ad_snow wrote:

whiteboytrash wrote:

BenderRodriguez wrote:

whiteboytrash wrote:

You raise some interesting points. I more referred to the way the event was portrayed on this forum. "Sitting on my face" comments do nothing to suggest this forum is open and welcome to all.

I agree, it made me cringe as well. :oops:

whiteboytrash wrote:

throw in Wiggins comments at the recent charity event and cycling is more prehistoric than 1970's football.

Can you give a link, or summarise what he said?

No. His comments are not worth the retina display I'm typing on. The less said the better.

Is this the thing about the guy having a posh voice? Can't believe you're offended over some words. Grow up.

No, I'm guessing it's the comment he apparently made at some charity night for women who had suffered abuse. I can't remember the full details though.

pinno

pinarello001 wrote:

inkyfingers wrote:

dmclite-3.0 wrote:

Bit sad really.

Yes, unless you were there.

Yes, unless she was sitting on your face.

My god, here we go. Insulted on someone else's behalf, in this case 50% of the population?

What I said could be taken as a compliment.

I agreed with the sentiment that it is a bit sad (dmclite) really and it was only meant to be funny. Apart from that, any woman who wants to parade themselves in skimpy bikinis/swimsuits is opening themselves up to objectification.
I agree that the PC brigade is actively driving what was main stream, top shelf and soft pornography underground.
A quick search on the net comes up with some pretty crude and quite frankly, disgusting stuff.

What is more worrying than any of this, is the stuff that teenage boys are picking up on their mobiles and it is giving them a pretty base and potentially dangerous idea of the male/female relationship.

I think the title would be enough to dissuade any woman from clicking on the thread.

BenderRodriguez

pinarello001 wrote:

the PC brigade is actively driving what was main stream, top shelf and soft pornography underground.

A lot of this is driven by the mistaken view that human beliefs, attitudes, gender identities and so forth are simply social constructs, and that by manipulating the environment one can 'remake man' as you please. The reality is that genetics play a vastly more significant role than many would like to admit and the human race cannot be remade in a way that runs counter to that genetic inheritance. This was always the flaw with Marxism: a great idea on paper and the product of one of the greatest humanist thinkers of all time, but human beings are naturally much more selfish, tribal, hierarchical, competitive, hostile to 'others' and so forth for such a system to be universally accepted.

Same with all this PC nonsense regarding events such as this competition. Banning events like this will not stop males seeing women as 'sex objects' and it would ultimately be better for all if even the baser aspects of male (and come to that female) sexuality were 'out there' where they could be dealt with in an open and honest manner than pretending they can be eradicated with a bit of 'PC' posturing, something that drives the whole thing underground where the darkest and most extreme expressions of sexuality tend to dominate.

pinno

@ Senor Rodriguez

We (the British) are still a repressed lot especially when it comes to sexuality and attitudes towards sex are on the whole, immature (sometimes from both sexes).
I have come to the conclusion that the PC brigade are a bunch of people too scared to come out of their repression. Maybe these people are the drivesr of political correctness and it is derived from their own fears, closet racism and repressed homosexuality. "He who doth protest too much"? and in this case "Those who doth protest too much". The whole PC attitude reflects (badly) the culture from which it is born.

DeVlaeminck

You are attacking a straw man. Nobody has claimed you can "remake man as you please" but it would be equally wrong to claim that different cultures can't lead to women having a more or less equal position in society.

slim_boy_fat

Slow news day?

BenderRodriguez

DeVlaeminck wrote:

You are attacking a straw man. Nobody has claimed you can "remake man as you please"

I could quote from a thousand social constructivists who argue exactly that and who deny that genetics have any influence on what we are.

DeVlaeminck wrote:

it would be equally wrong to claim that different cultures can't lead to women having a more or less equal position in society.

And I would say that good case could be made that events such as 'Miss Cyclismo' do more to empower women than subjugate them. Just look at societies where women are truly unequal, not even been allowed to drive cars and so forth as in Saudi Arabia, and you will see that the thing that is most controlled is their sexuality.

I think the reality is that many who criticise events events such as this actually feel threatened by the sight of women using their sexuality to their own advantage, and want to take the power that this gives them away from them.

rick_chasey

Shall I move this to bb??

Crankbrother

Rick Chasey wrote:

Shall I move this to bb??

Seeing as the discussion (I'm playing a bit fast and loose with that definition here) no longer has anything to do with the cyclists attending, I'd say yes ...

Maybe we should have one thread for pro race-but-not-bike-related photos ... All in one place and if folks don't like it they don't need to click on it (I'm thinking of the Wiggins' thread as an example of stuff folks are obviously interested in but doesn't really need it's own thread) ...

DeVlaeminck

BenderRodriguez wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

You are attacking a straw man. Nobody has claimed you can "remake man as you please"

I could quote from a thousand social constructivists who argue exactly that and who deny that genetics have any influence on what we are.

DeVlaeminck wrote:

it would be equally wrong to claim that different cultures can't lead to women having a more or less equal position in society.

And I would say that good case could be made that events such as 'Miss Cyclismo' do more to empower women than subjugate them. Just look at societies where women are truly unequal, not even been allowed to drive cars and so forth as in Saudi Arabia, and you will see that the thing that is most controlled is their sexuality.

I think the reality is that many who criticise events events such as this actually feel threatened by the sight of women using their sexuality to their own advantage, and want to take the power that this gives them away from them.

OK yes there are people who do argue what you say - I meant none of them are on this thread.

I think it's a reasonable counter argument you make about the taliban type of society. I don't think Miss Ciclismo empowers women at all though - the opposite - it reinforces the stereotype of men being the doers are the women there to serve the needs of the men. I'm not prudish - I'm not against good looking women in skimpy gear it's the context I object to. That said I can see there are two sides to the argument - it's not one I'm vehemently on one side on.

ocdupalais

Rick Chasey wrote:

Shall I move this to bb??

Not yet, Rick. Some interesting points being made - even if it does often smack of a student debating society. Besides, this was one of FF's Provacation Grenades that he likes lobbing into the fray, before standing back and lapping up the kerfuffle... Let's not spoil his enjoyment here.

As a photo document of grinning pro riders who've made a lot of money from cycling, despite having doped, and who are now stood around ladies in their bikinis whilst holding glasses of prosecco in their wedding-banded hands... It tells a story .

BenderRodriguez

DeVlaeminck wrote:

I don't think Miss Ciclismo empowers women at all though - the opposite - it reinforces the stereotype of men being the doers are the women there to serve the needs of the men.

As pro cyclists these men would be in the role of the 'doers' regardless and it seems the only way to completely avoid reinforcing such a 'stereotype' would be to refuse to acknowledge their achievements at all.

There are many attributes that are valued in society and one of the greatest is being sexually attractive. In fact, rather than leading people to think that the individual has no other worthwhile qualities, being attractive has a very powerful 'halo' effect with it being assumed that attractive people are also more intelligent, funnier, richer etc.etc. than plain looking individuals.

You also seem to overlook the fact that the title of this event was 'Miss Ciclismo'. That is, it was all about the females present not the guests. As such one could argue that the only stereotype being reinforced here was the one that says if you aspire to partner a woman of such superlative value, you had better measure up, as unless you have proved yourself to be worthy, for example by being a conformed 'doer', you simply won't get a look in.

Anonymous

I don't understand the relevance to cycling, why do we have this event? Why do we have podium girls? Why? The whole Sagan incident amounted to sexual assault yet it all just got blown under the rug after he said sorry.

BenderRodriguez when you say in the above comment: "As pro cyclists these men would be in the role of the 'doers' regardless and it seems the only way to completely avoid reinforcing such a 'stereotype' would be to refuse to acknowledge their achievements at all."

Are you talking about the achievement of the cyclist, e.g winning the race or the achievement of the girls for being beautiful?

Why do we need good looking ladies to: "acknowledge their achievements", is winning the race not enough, the prizes, the prize money the esteem that goes along with it?

If its about the women, I am not touching that, as it is a horrible suggestion.


It's a discussion on the morals of society, probably not for this forum.

BenderRodriguez

sjmclean wrote:

I don't understand the relevance to cycling, why do we have this event? Why do we have podium girls?...If its about the women, I am not touching that, as it is a horrible suggestion... It's a discussion on the morals of society, probably not for this forum.

You seem to be conflating lot of issues there.

Firstly, 'Miss Ciclismo' is 'about the women', and the cyclists there were simply guests. As to the competition's relevance to cycling, all it seemed to be doing was taking two things that are perceived to be 'glamorous' - a fun competition amongst attractive young women and pro bike racing - and putting them together in a mutually reinforcing symbiosis. This happens all the times in other forms: companies such as Colnago putting out Ferrari-liveried limited edition bikes, sponsors seeking to associate themselves with an event like the Tour and so forth. It would be a very grey sport indeed if all this 'irrelevance' was stripped away.

I also feel that it is rather 'Talibanesque' to argue this somehow reflects on 'the morals of society'. Was Vicky Pendleton acting immorally when she posed for that lad's mag?

As to 'podium girls'. Here is the view of someone asked to be one:

I'd love a hot guy with shaved legs and cyclist tan-lines to kiss me when I win a race, and no matter how many women say that asking for a good-looking podium girl is undermining, I hear women every week ask for one of the gorgeous male coaches at Herne Hill track to help them train in south London. So it works both ways.

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/green-living-blog/2010/aug/31/i-wanted-to-be-a-podium-girl

Anonymous

BenderRodriguez wrote:

sjmclean wrote:

I don't understand the relevance to cycling, why do we have this event? Why do we have podium girls?...If its about the women, I am not touching that, as it is a horrible suggestion... It's a discussion on the morals of society, probably not for this forum.

You seem to be conflating lot of issues there.

Firstly, 'Miss Ciclismo' is 'about the women', and the cyclists there were simply guests. As to the competition's relevance to cycling, all it seemed to be doing was taking two things that are perceived to be 'glamorous' - a fun competition amongst attractive young women and pro bike racing - and putting them together in a mutually reinforcing symbiosis. This happens all the times in other forms: companies such as Colnago putting out Ferrari-liveried limited edition bikes, sponsors seeking to associate themselves with an event like the Tour and so forth. It would be a very grey sport indeed if all this 'irrelevance' was stripped away.

I also feel that it is rather 'Talibanesque' to argue this somehow reflects on 'the morals of society'. Was Vicky Pendleton acting immorally when she posed for that lad's mag?

As to 'podium girls'. Here is the view of someone asked to be one:

I'd love a hot guy with shaved legs and cyclist tan-lines to kiss me when I win a race, and no matter how many women say that asking for a good-looking podium girl is undermining, I hear women every week ask for one of the gorgeous male coaches at Herne Hill track to help them train in south London. So it works both ways.

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/green-living-blog/2010/aug/31/i-wanted-to-be-a-podium-girl

The comment on morality was to do with the Sagan issue, which is a massive flaw with our culture.

The event translates in to English as "Miss Cycling", so I still fail to see the relevance of cycling. I think if we really were picking "Miss Cycling" we should be doing it out of the pro riders, don't you?

My original comment is still to do with my opinion on these types of events: I think the are classless and in poor taste. I think they create an unhealthy image of beauty and create a social stigma for women and their bodies. I have a member of my family who is suffering with a body image issue and it is ripping her apart. She is a size 14. That's normal, we try and tell her she is beautiful but she cant accept it, she wants to look like these women who we constantly parade around as the be all and end all of beauty.

I don't really have a view on the Pendelton thing, only that I find "lads mags" to be horrible.

You're very correct in saying it does work both ways, but just because that is the case, doesn't make it correct.

BenderRodriguez

sjmclean wrote:

My original comment is still to do with my opinion on these types of events: I think the are classless and in poor taste. I think they create an unhealthy image of beauty and create a social stigma for women and their bodies. I have a member of my family who is suffering with a body image issue and it is ripping her apart. She is a size 14. That's normal, we try and tell her she is beautiful but she cant accept it, she wants to look like these women who we constantly parade around as the be all and end all of beauty.

Your comment about "these women who we constantly parade around as the be all and end all of beauty" comes across as being very hostile and even misogynistic. What would you like to do? Force them to wear a Burka? Take away any opportunity they might have to exploit the gift that nature has given them, so forcing them to get a job in a supermarket or something? Why not take things further and 'do something about' the 'easy ride' had by those who are naturally gifted in other ways, be this intelligence, sporting ability or whatever?

As to the body image thing, life is full of ideals that few of us can live up to but I would suggest that the real solution is for people to develop a sense of perspective, not ban any ideal that we find hard to match. Look at people like pro cyclists, they too offer an ideal of a body type that most cyclists would love to have but are unlikely to ever attain. I don't see many cyclists who are 'ripped apart' by this, and for most such models have a positive influence, prompting them to lose some of that lard that most people carry around these days. Again, to suggest that 'it's different for women' is pretty insulting, suggesting as it does that they are less able to think for themselves and more open to social manipulation than men. (Who also are faced at every turn with 'ideals' of physical perfection, or has Gregor Fisher perhaps just become the new 'James Bond'? )

Your relation might well have some more deep seated personal / self esteem issues, with the 'body image' thing being just a convenient focus. To be frank, whilst she may well be 'beautiful', at a UK size 14 she may well still be overweight as well. Whilst being overweight is common these days that does not mean everyone should simply accept it as being 'normal' and not try to do more to control their weight, not least for health and quality of life reasons, or even better, look to their lives to understand why they overeat / eat calorie-laden 'comfort' foods and address those issues. Perhaps the best thing you could do in order to help her feel better about herself would be to help her 'shape up', perhaps by taking her out on the bike. Just an idea.