BG fit – mixed feelings

Simmo72

Hi
Just wanted to voice my experience on the BG fit

Overall, the process is very professional and thorough. It was 2 hours of assessment before I even sat on a bike and the entire process was around 4.5 hours. it confirmed that I do have movement issues in 1 leg but the rest of me was in pretty good shape.

I have back pain when riding (linked to the leg problem) and I find riding lower has helped. I’m 6ft 4, inside leg crotch to floor is 98-99cm and I have ridden with a saddle height of around 84cm…..most would say too low.

The result of the fit

My cleat position was changed along with ++ shoe inserts and this feels a lot better.
My saddle was changed to something firmer, so far so good though it will take a while to adjust.
My saddle setback has increased by about 1.5cm,
My saddle height has increased by 4cm.
My reach has extended 4.5 cm

I know, big changes

The problem is on my first ride (a gentle wet one) I felt horrible. Whilst I had no initial problem with increasing the saddle height, it feels like I’m loading up even more pressure on my back and lower back pain kicked in very early and I only did 15 miles. Based on my assessment the changes should in theory remove the strain on my back. 2 days later and my legs and back still feel stiff as hell. My main concern is saddle height and setback. According to the angles my knee bend is now at 30 degrees and my knees are good for KOPS (not that I believe in that method) so why does it feel so wrong.

Any advice? Should I go back and ask to reassessed, do I give it time to adjust as it is a major change, clearly there is a change of balance in leg muscle use but it just feels too high. Anyone else had any similar experience with a BG fit?

Many thanks

jgsi

Just a very quick note.... personally that whole KOPS thing is something I think about when setting up a new bike for myself, but I dont rigidly adhere to a doctrine that could make my own bike fit feel unnatural......#oh 30 degrees..?

sounds about 8 to 10 too many to me.

themogulman

You might try moving it back say half way and ride 100 miles with that then half way forward etc etc. I would try for 450 miles before going back/giving up.

Unless they didnt know what they are doing.

4 1/2 hours with a fool or 1 hour with a genius. I know what I woulod go for.

themogulman

You might try moving it back say half way and ride 100 miles with that then half way forward etc etc. I would try for 450 miles before going back/giving up.

Unless they didnt know what they are doing.

4 1/2 hours with a fool or 1 hour with a genius. I know what I would go for.

Sorry for double post I am an Idiot

alihisgreat

Keep the fit for a few weeks.. chances are you'll adjust.

If not then go back and complain.

Herbsman

Shouldn't the bike adjust to the rider, not vice versa?

My bike fit (not BG) felt good straight away.

rundle

I have mixed feelings about the BG fit process but they do provide a definite, repeatable yardstick.

They also give you a "road map" of your new recommended position, so you know those numbers.

Making those changes, in one movement, and then sending you out on the road with them is almost guaranteeing a bad result.

I think you should look at the results as a target measurement but go back to where you were, and start making the adjustments, especially saddle height and setback) on a gradual basis so that you have time to get used to the position and acclimate to it.

alihisgreat

Herbsman wrote:

Shouldn't the bike adjust to the rider, not vice versa?

My bike fit (not BG) felt good straight away.

No.

You ride for however many miles (not an insignificant number) in the wrong position.. so your body adapts to this position and muscles become accustomed to working in that position.

You then get put in a bio-mechanically correct position.. and your body has to adjust back.

If you fit the bike to someone who is adjusted to a bad position.. you end up in a bad position.


When I had my bike fit my saddle went up ~4cm too.. taking me to 28degrees leg extension -> back of the knees didn't feel right for the first few rides.. then it settled down.

lef

ALIHISGREAT wrote:

Herbsman wrote:

Shouldn't the bike adjust to the rider, not vice versa?

My bike fit (not BG) felt good straight away.

No.

You ride for however many miles (not an insignificant number) in the wrong position.. so your body adapts to this position and muscles become accustomed to working in that position.

You then get put in a bio-mechanically correct position.. and your body has to adjust back.

If you fit the bike to someone who is adjusted to a bad position.. you end up in a bad position.


When I had my bike fit my saddle went up ~4cm too.. taking me to 28degrees leg extension -> back of the knees didn't feel right for the first few rides.. then it settled down.

A correct position for a rider should not create discomfort, and in my view if it does it is not correct for the rider at that given time and worse case cause injury. A fit intending to achieve a comfortable position for a rider needs to understand the riders comfortable range of motion, weaknesses and so on, at the time of the fit and allow for them. The bike is then adjusted to suit this.

alihisgreat

lef wrote:

ALIHISGREAT wrote:

Herbsman wrote:

Shouldn't the bike adjust to the rider, not vice versa?

My bike fit (not BG) felt good straight away.

No.

You ride for however many miles (not an insignificant number) in the wrong position.. so your body adapts to this position and muscles become accustomed to working in that position.

You then get put in a bio-mechanically correct position.. and your body has to adjust back.

If you fit the bike to someone who is adjusted to a bad position.. you end up in a bad position.


When I had my bike fit my saddle went up ~4cm too.. taking me to 28degrees leg extension -> back of the knees didn't feel right for the first few rides.. then it settled down.

A correct position for a rider should not create discomfort, and in my view if it does it is not correct for the rider at that given time and worse case cause injury. A fit intending to achieve a comfortable position for a rider needs to understand the riders comfortable range of motion, weaknesses and so on, at the time of the fit and allow for them. The bike is then adjusted to suit this.

Ok so lets use a theoretical example...

I have a bad position on the bike -> leg extension is way off, and this is causing my hamstrings and calves to tighten up as my leg isn't straightening enough, and there is likelihood of knee pain due to too much stress on the knees.

I then get put in a proper position on the bike with leg extension at around 30degrees... the previous tightness in my hamstrings and calves now puts more pressure on my back.. and I get back pain.


What should we do in this situation? According to you we keep the bad fit? which is biomechanically incorrect and will cause problems down the road with the knees (if its not already causing problems).

According to me.. we use the new fit which is correct.. then we solve the back problem at the root of the cause. (which is likely to be contributed to be the poor bike fit anyway)

Herbsman

ALIHISGREAT wrote:

I then get put in a proper position on the bike with leg extension at around 30degrees... the previous tightness in my hamstrings and calves now puts more pressure on my back.. and I get back pain.

If it's the 'proper' position then it shouldn't be causing problems.

ollie51

I think too many people expect a bike fit to fix all the issues they have on the bike, too many of us feel the need to ignore inherent strength, muscle tightness and flexibility issues that we have that cause pain. Although in many cases these issues are probably caused, or aggravated by riding a bike that isn't bio-mechanically 'sound' for us.

A BG Fit (Well worth the time) for me meant admitting two things: My bikes really didn't fit me, and I needed to get the foam roller out and work on core strength.

Setarkos

BG Fit's 30 degree figure is definitely one of the lowest among bike fitters, so they do put you quite high. I would try it for at least 10 rides and if pedalling doesn't become smoother go back by 5-10mm.

Increasing setback when you're having back problems is the standard thing to do although I suspect they simply positioned your knee over the pedals in a certain way. BG fit has generally less setback than other bike fitters which I think is good.

However if you have been having back problems, it is unlikely they will just disappear because your back is already stressed and no matter what position you have on the bike it's not really helping your back issues.
Do you do any gymnastics/core strengthening at all? I find hyperextensions very helpful if you go to a gym. A good routine you can do at home: front plank/side plank right/side plank left/reverse plank hold for 45seconds each and take no more than 5 seconds to switch position - do that series twice.
If that's to easy, cut down the 5 seconds and increase to 1min per plank.
If you do that 3-4 times a week, you will see improvements after 2-3 weeks. (Provided you haven't done anything so far).
You might also incorporate some stretching especially for your hamstrings and hip.
http://www.bicyclekingdom.com/healthy/C ... etches.htm
http://www.seriousrunning.com/blog/wp-c ... tretch.jpg
http://www.getactivetampa.com/Hamstring%20stretch.jpg
http://www.horseshoeexpress.com.au/imag ... etch-1.gif

Good luck

Setarkos

Herbsman wrote:

If it's the 'proper' position then it shouldn't be causing problems.

True but if you are having problems before you are put in a 'proper' position it doesn't automatically resolve things.

Herbsman

Setarkos wrote:

Herbsman wrote:

If it's the 'proper' position then it shouldn't be causing problems.

True but if you are having problems before you are put in a 'proper' position it doesn't automatically resolve things.

I know - my back still hurts when I ride hard. Just not as much as before.

The 'correct' position is infinitely more comfortable and the pain is manageable to the point where I can actually get a decent finishing position in a race rather than having to quit halfway through.

All I'm saying is the 'proper' position shouldn't make things worse. If it does, then how can it be the 'proper'' position?

Simmo72

Yes, I agree with all the comments that a pro bike fit will not fix my back issues but reason for doing it was to eliminate bike setup as a factor, if its right then I know I just need to focus on me and my flabby body! The problem is after the fit I feel worse on the bike….not what I wanted for £200.

Setarkos, thanks for the suggestions. I used to go to the gym and do lots of hyper extensions but work and kids makes that tricky these days. In hindsight it probably did help but I was in the ‘wrong’ bike position. I have had some physio on my hip flexor and I do stretch but clearly not enough. Last night I came to the conclusion that Yoga is a good way forward.

My plan for this weekend, lower the saddle 1cm, it still feels very high, that will also bring the seat forward every so slightly. I might also try a 1cm shorter stem but only 1 thing at a time. Its frustrating but because I can’t get much time on the bike at the moment its going to take ages to dial in.

Argh, maybe I should just take up darts!

Herbsman

GO back to Specialized and explain that your new position is uncomfortable.

GiantMike

If you got another BG bike fitting (at a different shop or with a different bike fitter) would you get a different result?

Do you think the fitting system was correctly applied and it didn't suit you, or was the fitting system incorrectly applied?

Setarkos

Simmo72 wrote:

Setarkos, thanks for the suggestions. I used to go to the gym and do lots of hyper extensions but work and kids makes that tricky these days. In hindsight it probably did help but I was in the ‘wrong’ bike position. I have had some physio on my hip flexor and I do stretch but clearly not enough. Last night I came to the conclusion that Yoga is a good way forward.

Here are a few things you can do at home, eg "Bird Dog" and "Decline Back Bridge" in addition to the plank cycle described above. Maybe get a Thera Exercise Band, you can do most exercises designed for cable machines at home with them.
Yoga is definitely good. Most important with all of this is that you do it consistently (3-4 times a week).

My plan for this weekend, lower the saddle 1cm, it still feels very high, that will also bring the seat forward every so slightly. I might also try a 1cm shorter stem but only 1 thing at a time. Its frustrating but because I can’t get much time on the bike at the moment its going to take ages to dial in.

Be careful with bringing the saddle more forward. I know it's counter-intuitive but generally it's better for your back to have more setback.
Also shorter stem means your centre of gravity is further back and your back is absorbing more of the bumps than your upper body.
How much setback do you have? (Horizontal distance BB-tip of saddle)
Is your saddle level?

styxd

Leave it be for at least a few rides. You will probably need time to adjust to the new position.

lef

ALIHISGREAT wrote:

lef wrote:

ALIHISGREAT wrote:

Herbsman wrote:

Shouldn't the bike adjust to the rider, not vice versa?

My bike fit (not BG) felt good straight away.

No.

You ride for however many miles (not an insignificant number) in the wrong position.. so your body adapts to this position and muscles become accustomed to working in that position.

You then get put in a bio-mechanically correct position.. and your body has to adjust back.

If you fit the bike to someone who is adjusted to a bad position.. you end up in a bad position.


When I had my bike fit my saddle went up ~4cm too.. taking me to 28degrees leg extension -> back of the knees didn't feel right for the first few rides.. then it settled down.

A correct position for a rider should not create discomfort, and in my view if it does it is not correct for the rider at that given time and worse case cause injury. A fit intending to achieve a comfortable position for a rider needs to understand the riders comfortable range of motion, weaknesses and so on, at the time of the fit and allow for them. The bike is then adjusted to suit this.

Ok so lets use a theoretical example...

I have a bad position on the bike -> leg extension is way off, and this is causing my hamstrings and calves to tighten up as my leg isn't straightening enough, and there is likelihood of knee pain due to too much stress on the knees.

I then get put in a proper position on the bike with leg extension at around 30degrees... the previous tightness in my hamstrings and calves now puts more pressure on my back.. and I get back pain.


What should we do in this situation? According to you we keep the bad fit? which is biomechanically incorrect and will cause problems down the road with the knees (if its not already causing problems).

According to me.. we use the new fit which is correct.. then we solve the back problem at the root of the cause. (which is likely to be contributed to be the poor bike fit anyway)

I would suggest gradual changes if creating discomfort / pain and make the changes in addition to an off the bike flexibility & core program. A good fitter will say come back for further consultation if you are experiencing any problems, not suggest you continue to ride through the pain, and dont worry it will go away soon enough. If someone has been riding for years in the wrong position why the urgency to suddenly shoehorn them into the 'perfect' position.

lef

Herbsman wrote:

GO back to Specialized and explain that your new position is uncomfortable.

Absolutely. Get back there. They may suggest to reduce the changes by a half for a few rides so less of a jump (if the changes were significant)

mamba80

Setarkos wrote:

BG Fit's 30 degree figure is definitely one of the lowest among bike fitters, so they do put you quite high. I would try it for at least 10 rides and if pedalling doesn't become smoother go back by 5-10mm.

I understood the 30 degree knee angle puts you quite low on the bike? not high - 25 to 30 being a normal range if using knee angle to set seat height.

the changes the OP has had ie 4.5cm, 4cm and 1.5cm increases in reach, height and setback are huge, so hardly surprising it feels odd - BG fits arnt cheap so go back and ask for a 2nd fitting ?

Simmo72

GiantMike wrote:

If you got another BG bike fitting (at a different shop or with a different bike fitter) would you get a different result?

Do you think the fitting system was correctly applied and it didn't suit you, or was the fitting system incorrectly applied?

A good question but I think the fitting was carried out correctly using the BG science, I've spoken to a couple of friends who have had the same assessment and all the same checks were made. Its a very set routine with BG, I'm not slating the process, I'm sure it works for the majority.

Simmo72

mamba80 wrote:

Setarkos wrote:

BG Fit's 30 degree figure is definitely one of the lowest among bike fitters, so they do put you quite high. I would try it for at least 10 rides and if pedalling doesn't become smoother go back by 5-10mm.

I understood the 30 degree knee angle puts you quite low on the bike? not high - 25 to 30 being a normal range if using knee angle to set seat height.

the changes the OP has had ie 4.5cm, 4cm and 1.5cm increases in reach, height and setback are huge, so hardly surprising it feels odd - BG fits arnt cheap so go back and ask for a 2nd fitting ?

Put it this way, with the seat as the new height my toes can't touch the floor (and I'm a size 48), femur length has an impact on leg angle. I had a go on the rollers last night with 1cm lower and 2-3mm futher forward and it felt more comfortable, should hopefully find out more tomorrow.

Setarkos

mamba80 wrote:

Setarkos wrote:

BG Fit's 30 degree figure is definitely one of the lowest among bike fitters, so they do put you quite high. I would try it for at least 10 rides and if pedalling doesn't become smoother go back by 5-10mm.

I understood the 30 degree knee angle puts you quite low on the bike? not high - 25 to 30 being a normal range if using knee angle to set seat height.

the changes the OP has had ie 4.5cm, 4cm and 1.5cm increases in reach, height and setback are huge, so hardly surprising it feels odd - BG fits arnt cheap so go back and ask for a 2nd fitting ?

Where did you get that information? Normal recommendations are afaik around 35°. 30° as used by BGFit is the lowest figure I know from any BikeFit and of all the people I know who had the BGFit, every single one was put higher on the bike.
The angle they measure 180-knee angle.

alihisgreat

Setarkos wrote:

mamba80 wrote:

Setarkos wrote:

BG Fit's 30 degree figure is definitely one of the lowest among bike fitters, so they do put you quite high. I would try it for at least 10 rides and if pedalling doesn't become smoother go back by 5-10mm.

I understood the 30 degree knee angle puts you quite low on the bike? not high - 25 to 30 being a normal range if using knee angle to set seat height.

the changes the OP has had ie 4.5cm, 4cm and 1.5cm increases in reach, height and setback are huge, so hardly surprising it feels odd - BG fits arnt cheap so go back and ask for a 2nd fitting ?

Where did you get that information? Normal recommendations are afaik around 35°. 30° as used by BGFit is the lowest figure I know from any BikeFit and of all the people I know who had the BGFit, every single one was put higher on the bike.
The angle they measure 180-knee angle.

The acceptable range for the Trek fit I had done was 25-35degrees.

mamba80

25 to 35 is what my 2 bike fitting friends use and the 30 to 35 is reserved for folk with issues.
One is an ex BG fitter who rides way higher than 30' probably 25'
Or another way 145 to 155' knee angle relative to full leg extention.

If the op cannot even touch the ground at all then i suggest his original knee angle is probably more in the region of 20 to 25' and the heel drop was wrong when they set the 30' in the first place.

Setarkos

Okay my apologies, seems to be a fairly recent development though. Gave it a quick google and most sources are between 27 and 37 degrees... but I found an article suggesting what you said.

I suspect that the different figures result from different methods of measurement...
BGFIt (and all other bike fits I know) measure from the hip bone through the knee joint to the ankle and I am pretty sure that recommendations for that method range from 30 to 40 degrees.